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That would say that is true. i worry that undermines the use of real numbers and facts which are so important in guiding good policy decisions. >> and nick mulvaney, omb director telling me in an interview three weeks ago, this is gaming the system to try to keep the overall number under the budget rules so that the so-called bird rule so we only needed 50 votes and not 60 votes. he says and they all acknowledge that the good gimme parts of this, the dessert, if you will which is tax cuts for some people in the middle class, would end up being extended not being allowed to expire. so the real ...

Meet budget rules. if you look at the part of the rule where everything is in place, that it's a big bill tax cut and a middle class tax cut that people will see because the irs is going to send instructions for withholding to everybody who has listed -- they'll withhold less. they'll have a bigger tax cut. >> you see the changes down the road when people say, i'm paying more. one thing people have in their head is what i paid for taxes. do you see people paying more up to ten years out? how is that a middle class tax cut? >> they're not paying more but the really beneficial aspects of the bil...

You heard right there from senator blumenthal, a long and very bumpy road. how do you convince skeptical senators, particularly republicans in your own party was a look, the corporate tax cuts are permanent but the middle-class tax cuts or not. >> the objective obviously from the outset for everybody in the white house and everywhere in washington is to get americans the tax code they deserve, to get a tax cut for the middle class in a corporate rate reform that are all permanent but we also understand that there is a legislative process that the people of the senate have to get something put ...

Companies to do that? right? it's one thing to say they are going to do this. if you are betting this entire tax cut, helping the middle class, don't you need enforcement mechanism? you better do this? >> that's what's going on in the bidding. if you look at the president's nongauchables, 20% corporate tax rate, but the other thing is having a territoryial system where we make it hard or harder to transfer it to other countries to avoid u.s. tax. the rules, the house has budget rules, the senate finance committee is working on rules. they are a work in progress on the hill. we expect the final...

Because it is so crucial here. first, i want to start with a bipartisan estimate on taxation which came out today. it shows the senate tax bill will raise taxes on people earning between $10,000 and $30,00 in four years. in ten years everyone making less than $75,000 will get an increase. does that concern you? that is not acceptable to you. >> if i thought they were an accurate reflection, yeah, i would be concerned. the fact is, if you repeal the individual mandate and you don't require people to do something, then if they choose not to do it, then it's hard to say that's imposing a tax on i...