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A deception of evidence and withholding evidence is a crime. >> let's look at the tax filing of any of these groups and ask yourself how close they came to breaking the law. by involving themselves in right wing republican campaigns. >> you think -- i'm sorry dana, do you think the 504 c 4s are breaking the law then those are the unions. >> i think in some cases they do, yes. >> then maybe we should start looking at them. >> look at them. >> they have a $12 billion budget but $1.8 billion is specifically for i.t. management. $300 million of that was for server management. and they can't -- it'...

It seem it is prosecutors are focused on johnson, jordahl and the governor. i can't tell you if you are the walker campaign, on top of dismal job reports today in wisconsin, you almost have to be spinning out of control if you are that campaign now. >> you know, you involved in the recall and groups like wisconsin club for growth are classified as 501-c-4s. it means they can't coordinate with campaigns and they cannot push candidates on the issues. watch this ad that they ran in 2011. >> governor walker promised to make government live within its means. though the special interests don't like ...

Great shape, so they could actually use somebody really good. the larger principle of attacking people for their speech. we've seen this. it's a pattern. what happened at the irs, people who were trying to express their opinion, their beliefs through these 501 c 4s were targed by the irs. just today, there was report from testimony at the irs said no liberal groups were targeted. it's this acceptance in some quarters of allowing people to be attacked for their beliefs regardless of what they are able to do in business, or what their talents are. >> but the interesting thing here, these were no...

September 2010 when lerner wrote of tax exempt social welfare groups known at 501 c 4s. she said, my guest is those who political activity never pay the tax on the activity, and we surely should be looking at that. wouldn't that be a surprising turn of events? my object is not to look for political activity, more to see whether self-declared c4s are really acting like c4s. so lerner did direct her unit to find out if social welfare groups were really into social welfare. no mention of conservatives, no mention of the tea party, no mention of messing around for democratic benefit. if you needed...

I thought perhaps a coincidence. yesterday in looking at these emails, it just can't be a coincidence. even the reference to cincinnati. it does look like a covert behind the scenes dirty effort to reverse a decision. >> right. >> someone may think it's a lousy decision, maybe it should be reversed -- maybe some legislation, whatever. but this is done by the irs at a covert fashion behind the scenes, targeting people. >> yeah. and, look, liberal groups have been using 501 c 4s to be involved in public advocacy and politics for decades. and it never martyed. it never mattered to the liberals in...