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Solidarity, affinity, all of that expected. if you look at brazil and venezuela, they're two very different models. there's a give and take. take one country, peru. peru is a country that hasn't had a leftist government at all. if you look at gdp, poverty gone down. big commodity producers. >> colombia as well. >> under santos, not a man of the left. >> no. >> and the current president of peru backed -- was identified with chavez in 2006, lost. then he came back in 2011 had advisers from lula, who were helping him change to a much more moderate, pragmatic position, won the election of 2011 and...

Coming from commodity taxes. >> that's right. >> going back to the distinction between lula and chavez, they both came out of very different contexts, right? chavez came out of a context of complete collapse and he basically was presiding over the reformation. lula was elected in a very complex, established political system. that to a large degree, the left, the ptl built after the -- >> the workers party. >>y yes. after the dictatorership. so there was much -- in chavez was in brazil, would he be lula? that's the question. to the degree they tried to divide them, this is something being peddl...

They rempresent different experiences. they operate in this framework that has emerged out of the ruins of washington consensus that also being able to control your taxes, control your commodities so it isn't all geared toward keeping the bond markets happy in washington or having the u.s. -- >> although -- >> -- single market, single source of credit. there's been a diversification. there hasn't been a break with the model but a diversification of credit and capital and brazil and venezuela have led. >> lula came in, appointed an orthodox economic team and they imposed austerity. first thing ...

Capital flowing out. >> i want to make the point that i think without chavez lula would have been seen as being on the far left. >> another good point. >> and the fact that chavez was there with his provocative statements, the united states and europe are like, yes, let's collaborate with lula. we have someone who's a moderate who would not have -- >> can chavez was the blocking in terms of lula, the running back, in terms of this relationship. >> one thing washington could learn is to apply the washington consensus. fiscal discipline, fiscal responsibility -- >> sthaelts exactly what -- >> th...

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