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Moving away -- well, this week at least, it seems to be moving away from the collusion question, the moneylaundering question by people like manafort, gates and flynn and over towards the obstruction area that seems to be where they're pushing the fresh. if i were thinking, that would be a whole another kettle of fish. different white house people who may have been part of a conversation about how to shut comey down, shut the whole prosecution down. and that's when you get into obstruction. >> from what little we can see about how mueller has organized his team, it would be more accurate to th...

>> joyce vance, did a collusion case just get a whole lot easier that donald jr. was in an ongoing conversation with wikileaks? >> we're seeing some indication that perhaps donald trump jr. was involved in accessing or receiving stolen property, some stolen e-mails, that perhaps there was other conduct that occurred. when you link up the disclosure from these wikileaks and add that to what we already know about the june meeting in trump towers, it seems inevitable we're headed towards some type of conspiracy either to permit a foreign government to illegally interfere in the united states elec...

Little bit of time. so if you're mueller and you're looking at who is my possible witness if there's a collusion case to be made, gates is the far more credible and important player because he stayed on after manafort left. he went all the way through the transition with trump. so he's got a lot more information and is a more credible witness. so the strands that you asked about earlier, i think there's a whole financial group of investigations that mueller is conducting. manafort was the first of them. flynn will be the second of them. kushner and his properties and maybe the eb 5 visa progra...

Campaign. >> exactly. just as manafort for a little bit of time, gates for a longer time. mueller looking at possible witness for collusion case to be made, gates is far more credible and important because he stayed after manafort left. went through the transition with trump. he's got a lot more information and more credible witness. strands that you asked about earlier, i think there's a financial group of investigations that mueller is conducting, manafort the first, flynn will be the second. kushner and his properties, maybe the eb-5 visa program, properties in new jersey, reach out to russ...

They don't know what to do. they have ty cobb in there. they're running out these people to be interviewed. if mueller real has his hands on the collusion case, the only way to save themselves is to attempt to blow it all up. >> you're not saying they're ethically right. >> no. >> you're saying strategically -- howard is saying they strategically understand if there's an existential threat, you don't want to cooperate with someone who may be trying to legally slit the throat of your organization and that is a view that this is too cooperative. so speak to that that he so intelligently laid out...