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Look, you know, as danny says, there are two ways to look at this overall oh, there may be a collusion case coming down the pike or they don't have it that's just where it stands. you know, all of this is interesting as a defense lawyer for over 20 years and a prosecutor for over a decade in my case, very ill advised to go on television and talk about the case he laid that out in the indictment the senior official contacted him. he said that didn't happen it has to be an issue of where is the truth we have to dig that out. >> abigail, you spoke about collusion in the article we talked about th...

Didn't read the indictment. this is the first mueller indictment that lays out a collusion case. now, again, it's collusion between wikileaks and the trump campaign with roger stone as the conduit. we know mueller has alleged that the russian government gave it to wikileaks. what we don't know is was stone, trump, were they also aware of all of this too. those are dots that haven't been connected. >> which also makes that, of course, the june trump tower meeting, all the more important. >> by the way, rudy giuliani's now re-imagination of what no collusion is, no, no, it's just the president, ...

The russian oligarch. is he key to the collusion case? >> absolutely. he's essential to it. this is someone who disappeared from american politics. went over to ukraine. and got in bed with pro-russian party and eventually one of the russian oligarchs. and all of a sudden he goes missing. and owing millions of dollars. and then the guy shows up, running donald trump's presidential campaign. you don't need to be a sherlock holmes to be to look at that set of facts and say huh. this guy putin was protrump in the election. should we look into the manafort situation? of course. and then he's back ...

Now, you know, now is claiming that he just forgot. and i don't know how hard it is to forget, you know, meeting with russian agents, but i find that to be a tenuous argument. >> interesting. ryan, so manafort is at the center of a lot of contacts with russia, like the infamous trump tower meeting with the russian lawyer, right, who promised dirt on hillary clinton. do you remember the one where don jr. says and if that's so, i love it, right? and then he owed a lot of money to the russian oligarch oleg deripaska. is he key to mueller's collusion case? >> oh, absolutely. i mean, he's central -...

Arm's length, given the fact that they know this investigation is ongoing. and what we learned, erin, is that as part of this investigation, paul manafort testified before the grand jury and apparently the grand jury is asking questions about the person you mentioned, constantine kilimnik, who the special counsel, who the fbi says is somebody who works with the gru, the russian intelligence agency. that's one of the agencies that was behind the dnc hack. so i think you can take a step back here. i think you can start seeing that the mueller investigators are trying to connect some dots. there'...