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this, john. this thing about cootees and -- it's like there is some physical presence that it -- disturbs me. people go to work every day, they deal with people they don't know or like in some cases. but they've got to be in business and sales. nobody ever says i couldn't stand -- this is high school stuff. i don't even know what it is. >> and everybody -- >> what is it? >> everybody at this table has been in a room with barack obama. it's really not hard to be near barack obama. >> he's kind of light presence. >> he's smart, engaging. he does reach out to people he disagrees with, because he wants to win the argument. he can be, you know, fierce as a debater. but by and large, he's not a difficult person to be around. so it's really not about barack obama in reality. it's about what barack obama stands for, and picking up on what howard and joan said a moment ago. it's rejection, but it's because they really believe we're in a political and cultural fight. and obama embodies everything they can't stand. >> first of all, the way the