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Conservative and to show the party that mr. bush is enough of a street fight tore survive the contest. is that also the goal here to show voters he is on one hand capable of rolling up his sleeves, capable but at the same time a man of substance and policy. >> it is interesting. because if you talk to people around jeb bush in florida, he had this theory of the case going back even before he ran that the party would come to him in theory as an establishment candidate who can be credible and win a general election, if let's say they nominated someone like a sarah palin. i think that the jeb bus...

Yet, but if he does, he will make it as the candidate of the conservative wing of the party against the more establishment like a jeb bush or john kasich. and candidate from that conservative lane will have to rely mostly on red states in the general election. like alabama, the south, the heartland states, kansas, oklahoma, et cetera, while the more establishment candidate will proel rebably rely on blue states. that's the division we saw this 2008 with john mccain and mike huckabee, the same division in 2012 with mitt romney and rick santorum. and if donald trump does get into the finals of t...

Outlining his positions on taxes and other issues including national security matters. why is it right now, sara, you've been looking into this, the so-called renegade candidates like donald trump, dr. ben carson, ted cruz, they're doing well among republican voters, at least according to this latest fox news poll but some of the establishment candidates like jeb bush, for example, scott walker, maybe he's an establishment candidate, marco rubio, not necessarily moving up. >> i like how you call them renegade candidates. this is what we were surprised about when we saw donald trump's support k...

Florida. so i'm not sure -- i don't think you can say that of him yet. but i think he is at best right now, an indifferent campaigner. i've seen him at some events where he was very fluent. he showed some real optimism about america, which is really short. the right-wing doesn't really speak optimistically, but i do think he is clearly at least out of practice. and as i say, this impatience with the art of campaigning, and what you have to do is going to get in his way. he should have been prepared, for example, for that question about iraq a long time ago. it's astonishing that he didn't have...

Primary, there's always been an anti-establishment element in the republican party. usually it's 20 perks 25%right party. four years ago we saw that with michele bachmann herman cain -- >> newt gingrich. >> a rotating crop of people who moved to the top most of whom were anti-establishment. then it settles out because the candidate field starts to whittle and starts to become a one-on-one or one on two race. the anti-establishment candidate has a ceiling. donald trump has a ceiling. he is has a vociferous following within that ceiling but it's a relatively low ceiling. >> as somebody that want...