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Chris Matthews debates hot political issues with politicians, newsmakers and Washington leaders. Not to pay off women so his marriage would be in tact. But to get himself elected. That is an amazingly particular charge that gets to the heart of the president s lack of credibility. I am thrilled that you honed into that specific part of it. This is not just a pay off. It has to do with the campaign itself. When you have Something Like this, could Michael Cohen perhaps testify against the president of the United States. Who knows and we may never know. One thing that under lies testimony and mak...

Documenting this and that clark pressure campaign, it was basically for d.o.j. to send a letter that would get everybody in a lather and kind of suspend the clear results. so i do think -- and it was a trump play -- that at that time it was less grounded and thought through than the eastman memo later made it become. i think it was basically, how can i, in my trumpian way, just make a total mess of things and see what falls out? >> you know, there is an echo, jonathan lemere, in this -- i don't know what the right word is, nieldsing, prodding, litany of calls and meetings. there is an echo of ...

Of people about it. but none of those who were closest to him, right? that's who he was, that's who they were. they lie, they deny, and they defy. and there's proof. what does it mean? let's bring in norm eisen. good to have you, sir. >> great to be back, chris. >> what does it mean and why doesn't it mean nothing except a little bit of a, i told you so, and for the record appraisal of what was true and what was not politically? why does it mean anything? >> the new revelations that the house judiciary committee finally got out of don mcgahn in the transcript that was released today demonstrat...

Have mueller fired, were false. it was a lot of new information that not only did the president very likely obstruct justice, mcgahn felt that he was on the verge, if he had complied with the requests from the president, he could have been prosecuted by mueller, he was so desperate that he went out, and felt he had to leak it to the press. he used words like crazy and out of control. here's why it matters. we've seen over and over again, the department of justice under joe biden is going to be fiercely independent. i think with this public transcript out there, they must look again at the pres...

Good evening to you. what do you think about the four pinocchios? >> i think he got four because you cannot get five for he got the maximum senate you can get and do you know how hard that was for "the washington post"? to give adam schiff four pinocchio's? >> martha: they did to their credit. that's >> that's the second sound of the apocalypse. i've got to get my affairs and order. he's also a career offender, martha. a same guy who had the parity, week or so ago, to have mueller that mueller couldn't find. how long is speaker pelosi going to put up with adam is handling this investigation. h...