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buddies and allies to overturn the 2020 election. as we reported on this program at this hour yesterday, mark short, he's of course the former chief of staff to former vice president mike pence, testified before a d.c. grand jury last week. now according to new multiple reports, we also know that a second senior pence aide also testified. that would be greg jacob, pence's legal counsel. both men, of course, had a front row seat to the extraordinary pressure campaign on mike pence by trump and his allies, people like john eastman, to get pence to stop the certification of president jo...

Short were providing further context as to their communications with people like john eastman, boris epstein, rudy giuliani, some of the people mentioned in those emails that maggie haberman and luke broadwell published. i think that, you know, what is so troubling i think for the january 6th committee and a part of their entire thesis that this is a slow rolling insurrection that is still playing out is that maybe greg jacob's theory that this would not fly in the supreme court isn't actually something that still stands in this hyperpoliticized environment right now. there is this theory that...

Maniacal obsession with criminalizing national security investigations? >> well, the trouble with what trump did was it took an environment where you might have legitimate violations of the law and it put it into this hyperpoliticized environment where it was clear that trump was going after people he perceived to be his opponents and i was on the receiving end of his accusations of treason and his idea that i should be put to death and it doesn't get old, the sort of outrage upon hearing that. but here's the issue, nicole. separate and distinct of what trump said and may have wanted, there we...