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Waste, fraud, abuse, but much less of it. >> let me push back, john. when you left it up to the states to decide, the federal reform under clinton left it to states to decide, then you have job requirements were weakened at the state level, they let the states decide. that's when you had weight watcher classes qualifying for food stamps, anti-smoking classes qualifying. i don't think that's the way to go. >> they should be laboratories of ideas. some will make them weak, some will make them strong, figure out locally what works best rather than one size fits all from the federal government tha...

>> i don't think it is politically feasible to get rid of the pgc. we have to be a safety net or entitlement. getting rid of it gets rid of a safety net when what we want is keep the safety net, not make it entitlement. >> john, keep the safety net? go ahead. >> i don't see why we are on the hook for company errors. that's the problem, it made us into a safety net society, keep propping up failures of others. >> michael? >> if you allow them to charge the proper rate, you won't have to bail it out. that's the point. keeping the rate low, it isn't able to cover its liabilities. >> i agree with ...

Transform how you watch college football. let them do it. get the government out of the way, let them work their magic. >> at what cost are these mistakes? how costly could they be? go ahead. >> the school of economics to which i usually subscribe, let it fly until it doesn't work out. that works until delivering a pizza runs into a jet engine causing a catastrophe. my thing is no drones within 20 miles of an airport. >> rick, what do you think? >> i want to know why you were concerned about carrie and sabrina spied on, not john or bill. >> don't need to worry about it. >> an exemption to all ...

>> absolutely. none of us begrudge people that fall on hard times, all of us imagine what that might be like. but the safety net is terribly broken. supplemental assistance program has doubled in size since 2007. it is now helping 47 million americans. there's someing wrong if one in seven americans depend on food stamps. >> good point. michael, this debate often is derailed by people that think we don't want to help widows, orphans, children. that's not where the debate sits. we added the equivalent of new york state in the last decade to the food stamp rolls, it is now about new yo...

The -- the more the economy will recover on its own. >> i'm not so sure about that. >> the figures seem to indicate that. >> it is going to recover on its own but i think it will recover a lot quicker. >> john said david is right. go ahead. >> that's two times in two weeks that tammy has agreed with me. the negativity that the government and the citizens have displayed is a big part of what has kept this economy down. >> let washington state go.