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Alex Wagner Tonight

tended to agree with and validate anyone that he happened to be speaking to, especially donald trump, but also people who are questioning donald trump, so i think that is a big question mark where he ends up over the course of the investigation and prosecution. >> to that and, i wonder whether you -- rachel i think made the point very aptly is that a lot of the coconspirators in this that we have identified thus far are lawyers. as someone who is an expert in constitutional law, i wonder if you can elaborate to the degree to which is a legal breach of ethics and what they did? -- suggested that he was just doing creative lawyering and giving the advice to the president. i wonder where you think that stands up in the court of law? >> if this is not a violation of professional legal ethics to participate in an attempt to

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Alex Wagner Tonight

think the currency is phony and everyone should be allowed to make up their own money. you can say that, but the minute that you start printing your own money, now you run about the counterfeit loss, and it's the exact same thing with the electoral college. they can say, well, we don't think that joe biden really wanted these things even though every federal state court rejected all of their claims of electoral fraud and corruption. the minute that they start manufacturing counter bid electors and trying to have them substitute for the real electors that came through the federal and state legal process, at that point, they've crossed over from speech to conduct. i think that the indictment is really tight in terms of folks just on the conduct and, in fact, they left out one charge that the january six committee had put in their, which was about aiding and abetting and giving aid and comfort to insurrectionists. i suppose they did that because it's a statute that has not

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Alex Wagner Tonight

ones where there really is quite a timeline, because depending on what happens in the election, those cases could go away. that is not true with respect to the current case and manhattan, and if there is a case in georgia, everyone's centipede also, will not go away. you can imagine the two federal judges thinking that there might be some reason for those cases. you could imagine the state judges thinking that is right. >> yeah, just to underscore the point there, i think a lot of us think about federal courts getting deference, and the federal cases go first. laetitia james, the attorney general of new york, has talked about that, which raised some eyebrows. well, in this case, as you have been talking about, alex, as these things proceed both in court and in politics, there is something that happens at the next election, which is that if trump is the republican nominee, and he is elected, he will eliminate the justice

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Alex Wagner Tonight

>> you might have made the point earlier that the panel made that the idea of saving democracy actually turned out to be a powerful factor in the midterms, as did abortion. but i am with alex. if i am the biden campaign, to go back to my old world of being in a campaign world i would go to each of these states, because one of the things that the democrats are a bit concerned about is, they are always concerned low-key about black male turnout. the turnout of black voters. i hope that it will be as robust as they needed to be to win. and obviously they are always concerned about the drift of some latino voters toward the republicans. well, if i am them, i am going to wisconsin, i am going to arizona, you know, i am going to detroit, to michigan, i am going to each of these states, to new mexico, to all of these states where the robbery was attempted, and make the case that this man attempted to steal your votes, doesn't

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Alex Wagner Tonight

that he has ever undertaken. and it deserves to be put before the nation as a question, as he heads towards most likely being the nominee and to be talked about in the august debate on the republican primary stage, with him in his absence. to me, what is hardening to jen, the arrows do all point in the same direction on this question. >> except for republicans will not go, there his republican primary rivals for the nomination are not -- >> they are not actually running for office. you are running and i was the front runner, would you not be going for my jugular? instead they are like hey, dude. you are running! >> so they were all pulling at 0%, and they are all taking him on in this regard. but all the rest of them are going to say that the lesson of today, the important thing of today is that the justice department is terrible, the fbi is terrible, and american law enforcement needs to be

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Alex Wagner Tonight

government service, he can't dismiss everything as a federal power is part of our system. >> how do you run for president during this? they are trying to lock in these trials, per se, then how do you schedule a presidential debate? how would the grand poobahs of the republican party, what is ronald romney mcdaniels looking -- she goes, oh, this is how -- had the run for president while you are still trying to schedule all this? i don't know how the math works. >> remember in 2016, where trump sent a letter to build trump tower in moscow -- apparently, these guys can multitask. >> he would also be fundraising because after every indictment, there is a spike in trump fundraising to pay the legal bills of all the people -- >> the largest industry for trump at this point. >> let them, if people want to get their own private money, and he's making a clear to pay the legal bills, have at it. go for it, dude. >> give me your money, and then elect the president said that i can dissent to the american constitutional system of

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Alex Wagner Tonight

basis i.t., if it is good, no. and it is such an important point, litigating the conspiracy is, in some ways, litigating the election. because the important factual predicate to it being a conspiracy is that he knew he lost, and all the nonsense, the big lie was not true. there is a sort of substrate of the whole thing that going back to remind everyone he lost to joe biden, which in the view of republicans, joe biden such a ludicrous figure. so preposterous that she would lose to joe biden. that is the argument that trump flirted with four they're being fraud. how could me, your favorite president, lose to joe biden? but the litigation to this is reminding everyone that yes, indeed, you lost to joe biden. >> but one of trump's lawyers are saying tonight in response to the indictment that what they are looking for into the trial, because it will disprove all these assertions that these were false claims of voter fraud, they will have to prove once and for all that the election was stolen.

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Alex Wagner Tonight

loses all meaning. so that is why hypocrisy is an empty charge. like, what do you say? >> but rachael, not treating the indictment is further evidence that he is not running for president. the only, it is irrelevant to say what you are going to do to the justice department, what you are going to do to the fbi, if you cannot pass, go and go is donald j trump, and nothing else matters. so to not read the indictment, he should be reading every word, and coming up with slogans, and bumper stickers to go after trump. and the fact that he is not, he is not running. >> can i just say, tom winter in the atlantic makes a very important point and i think everyone who's watching this program should listen to what he's saying. because i think that there is this tendency to dismiss, well, republicans are not going to read this, to sort of accept that republican candidates are going to say i didn't read the indictment, or republican congress people are going to say i have, and to move past that. and he makes a point that you've gotta get your uncle, who is a trump supporter to read this. you have to get your neighbor

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Alex Wagner Tonight

let me start with you because you have not been part of our discussions, at least while i have been here this evening. alex wagner raised a good point earlier on, which is at the timeline is going to line right up with the presidential election process and the campaign. you know, these claims are going to be tested in court but they are also going to be tested in the court of politics. i know that president biden went to a movie, and i have to ask, what do you think this does to the campaign? >> the first thing is, we don't know yet, because this is going to have to play out in the public, whether this is seeing some of the trial, reporting on some of the trial, or all the events that are going to happen between now in november 2024. what we do know is while we've seen in recent polls, including the siena poll, this is startling to me, 22% of

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Alex Wagner Tonight

through the red fizzle. and this stuff hurt. so while, you said such important things that we all take seriously, but he's legally presumed innocent, and nothing about they should be approached inside the doj or the government for partisan lands. thus far we have not seen evidence of that. and if we did we would report it. having said all of that, if we are talking about the trajectory and american, life being convicted is bad. being a defendant with a lot of evidence is bad. being a convicted person who has the right to appeal, and who definitely does, as lawrence reminded everyone of that tonight, it is also bad. it is interesting with the context, which you and others have raced, tonight they wanted, the racists wanted to show martin luther king in the prison guard, and put that photo out there to make the point that he is a convict. and he was arguing, know there is something wrong with the laws. we talk about free speech, you are allowed to criticize the laws in this country. that is a good thing. so the fact that you have been convicted of something somewhere doesn't automatically mean anything for your wider

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