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Families who make more than $200,000 a year, $400,000 a year, whatever, should not, they should be paying for it out of their own pocket. we heard that president biden is saying that he could theoretically support that, means testing some of the programs. i know it is a goal to have universal pre-k and elder care, et cetera, but would you be willing to support means testing so that only the people who need it -- i don't need free pre-k. >> i think it depends on really how it is structured. because if you have for example a 7% universal cap on childcare, that is a form of means testing because ...

Which biden is proposes. that could send up to $3600 per child to families working under a certain threshold. you have a means testing in it. senator gijoe manchin so you cannot get the money if you are not working. do you support that? >> no, i don't support a work requirement. i do not think the tax credit should go to the highest incomes. but 98% of families that are receiving the child tax credit have members who are working. so that's really not a real issue. and of the remainder, many are grandparents who are taking care of grandchildren. they may be retirees. i really don't think we sho...

Because there are still sticking points about how much you're going to spend, that top line number that we have talked so much about with moderates arguing that they want some programs that are going to be included in that bill to be means tested, meaning only the neediest americans need to qualify for some of the benefits that democrats are discussing. progressives arguing that they don't want any means testing. so there are so many sticking points still to work out, that, yes, there is going to be more time to focus on the negotiations if the debt ceiling is punted until late november, early...

Where joe biden's privately proposing, anywhere from 1.9 to $2.2 trillion. and he indicated he's not ruling this out. but there are so many policy differences that they have to sort through, exactly what to cut, how to deal with the issues of means testing to limit the eligibility of key social programs in this bill. how to deal with climate change. one issue that divides joe manchin with the progressives. and it's important because they need all 50 democrats on board in the senate. they have just a three-vote margin in the house. the democrats do, so there is virtually no margin for error. at...

Manchin, senator manchin, has talked about means testing, which progressives hate, but that's one way to hold down the costs of some of these provisions. the house and senate democrats are still fighting over whether or not to make, you know -- to expand medicare or to make obama subsidies permanent. so all these are popular provisions. they're popular. you take them and you poll them, americans like them. but then the price tag on them is huge, and so the democrats are looking, maybe we can too this for a couple of years, then phase it out. they'll play games on this just like republicans pla...