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Paper trail, right? he didn't text, he didn't use email, can the prosecution or investigation at this point look for evidence that is circumstantial in nature, this idea of the insinuation of -- it would be unfortunate if something happened to your family, that type of thing, right? the fact that there may not be a direct threat, is there enough for investigators to say there might be evidence of tampering with a witness? >> yes, sophisticated -- don't come right out and say do not tell the truth, or make sure you say things favorable to me. they are far more sophisticated than that, they use ...

Stressing the loyalty and that we are watching. and the second example that liz cheney gave made it even more explicit, saying donald trump reads transcripts. so, he's going to be watching to see what you say. but to me, when i heard that, it's really typical of when you are doing an investigation that involves multiple people at a hierarchical organization, that you are going to have people attempt to interfere with witness testimony. it happens, as you mentioned, in mob cases all the time. that can take the form of actual, physical violence. it's why there's the witness protection program. b...

So what's her incentive to lie? and these guys well, it didn't happen exactly the way she says. they're not testifying under oath, and they really are part of the trump cult. so i think we see serious witness tampering that the department of justice absolutely has to investigate urgently and seriously. >> but professor, let me interrupt for a second. how difficult is it to make a legal case for witness tampering? what is needed for proof? >> essentially an overt act, a statement that a reasonable person would understand as a threat or as an offer to treat one more favorably if one gives favora...

Anyway. she's also a loyal trump supporter. she's been with him all the time. what's her reason to lie? these guys are not testifying under oath, and they are really part of the trump cult. so i think we see serious witness tampering that the department of justice has to investigate urgently and seriously. >> but professor, let me interrupt for a second. how difficult is it to make a legal case for witness tampering? what is needed for proof? >> essentially an overt act, a statement that a reasonable person would understand as a threat or as an offer to treat one more favorably if one gives fa...

Points of mob cases. also in drug trafficking cases in the drug cartel trafficking cases, it's not unusual to see that sort of situation come up. it's technically acceptable, so long as the lawyer is representing his client and not the person who is paying him and that is where we have this, i don't think it's a bright-line distinction, but it's possible that you can have a lawyer who can cross over that line so far that he wouldn't just be failing to vigorously represent his client, to zealously represent his client. you might also find himself caught up in some form of a conspiracy to intimi...