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Cannon in florida. so she would be aware of what was happening in d.c.. they said they did that in sealed proceedings. they made sure everyone was aware of what was going on. and then judge boasberg did the right thing, just to say, you know what? before you make a decision, as to what is in your interest, i want to see that you've talked to somebody who is conflict free. they went to the federal defenders, and our experience, really wonderful lawyers, a lot of people think just because they're free, somehow they're not good. they tend to be really excellent council. that's what you saw happen...

Know what? before you make a decision, as to what is in your interest, i want to see that you've talked to somebody who is conflict free. they went to the federal defenders, in our experience, really wonderful lawyers, a lot of people think just because they're free, somehow they're not good. they tend to be really excellent council. that's what you saw happen. what you're putting your finger on, and what is unfortunate, this is so common in any case where there is a crime that's committed by a group. and there's a real hierarchy. it's a real problem in the law, as i said, it in mob cases, in ...

Interceded to say, you should at least speak to independent counsel before you make a decision that you want -- >> that seems like a critical step. >> that happens in mob cases a lot. of course, what happens, as soon as get independent counsel, and advises them the person's like, oh, now i've got it. this person may not have my best interests at heart. they may be passing on what i'm saying to somebody else. and all sorts of concerns. that's why, more often than not, especially when the government is saying there's a potential conflict, responsible council says, you know what? i'm out. get som...

But the law allows for that. the law also allows for, you know, the top dog, the employer, whatever it is the mafia boss, to pay for counsel for his employees or his lieutenants. that is all allowed. the law presumes the ethical conduct of lawyers who are officers of the court. >> that's the mistake. presuming ethical conduct -- i'm not going to besmirch all lawyers everywhere. as someone who has seen lower level defendants flip, if i'm carlos de oliveira or even walt nauta in this case and i see my buddy yucil taveras who was allegedly in the room with me doing all this, flip after he gets in...

Integrity, here the chief judge in d.c. interceded to say you should at least speak to independent counsel before you make a decision that you want to -- >> that's a critical step. >> absolutely. by the way, that happens in mob cases a lot. and of course what happens is as soon as somebody gets independent counsel and advises them, the person is like ah-hah, okay, now i get it. this person may not have my best interest at heart. that's more often than not especially when the government is saying there's potential conflict, responsible counsel is saying i'm out, get somebody else. >> the key ph...