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Allen weisselberg was everything to that organization. how do you think he's feeling in this right about now. >> i'm sure the news is not welcome to him. he was someone in the crosshairs as the chief financial executive for the trump organization. he knows an awful lot about the finances. remember from michael cohen, the trump organization when inflate the value of -- assets for purposes and decrease it for tax returns. it's a paper case. you can look at the documents and see they both can't be true. documents don't lie, so there is a strong case. it's a very useful to have cooperators on the ...

Just opened up a whole new avenue of hurt, legally, if he really wants to assert that he relied on cohen. i don't think that's going to work, and i don't think it's wise. >> i want to get all of you on the record about allen weisselberg. he ran the money at trump organization. a narrow immunity deal with the southern district of new york. what he is on tape, what he is referenced to on the secret recording from trump was basically someone who processed invoices. so in the manafort indictment, you guys talked about a paper case. it seems like there's also paper evidence of this operation. >> ye...

Crack into a very closely held corporation or set of corporations that had never really been -- had any public exposure to anything. so trying to find people who had been in and around that empire was a great challenge. and then getting them to talk. and then getting records that had never been public before, that was the real heavy lift. once we had all that, it was kind of colossal forensic analysis of just hundreds of tax documents and ledgers and, you know, i read a book on real estate accounting twice in the last year and a half. i didn't see that coming either. >> sorry. >> thank you. >>...

These are financial crimes. if i'm not a financial expert or a legal expert, it might take me a while to go through all of the charges and all the documents and all the evidence to make sure i'm the dog those "i"s and crossing those ts. >> tax cases are paper cases, so they're really not terribly complicated. it seems daunting because of the amount of paper and the numbers and the complexity of the numbers. but ultimately where we talk about rick gates being the focal point of this case, this really is a paper case and it's really about did you disclose it, did you know you were supposed to di...

To the 27 witnesses which testified for the government, including key witness rick gates, manafort's former right-hand man. the prosecution produced 367 exhibits compared to just 12 for the defense. let's bring in our legal experts, bob, a criminal defense attorney and a former new jersey prosecutor, and jeff, a white collar criminal defense attorney who represented three white house employees during the clinton scandals. thanks so both of you for being here. really appreciate it. >> good morning. >> morning to you. thanks for being here. let me start with you. and ask where you think things s...