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It? it's a paper case. >> exactly. and you know, i think they're doing the exact same thing the prosecutors do across the country every time they have a criminal case. it is the unglamorous work of sitting in rooms and marking kpikts a exhibits and making sure you have your paperwork and in a case like this, which is a heavy paper case, they're going to be going through those things with a fine tooth comb. >> i have to ask you about the last bit of drama up until we begin tomorrow, i guess up until opening statements. there could be a deal in this case. isn't it possible? >> oh, it's incredibl...

And so for a defense lawyer, there are only a number of techniques that you can use. it's this guy and this guy is a proven liar. okay, that's -- you know, that's an issue. it's a challenge for a prosecutor. he is a proven liar. i didn't realize what was going on. the suite of defenses when a reasonably clear cut case like this is pretty limited. >> i hadn't put that together. their whole defense is to discredit a witness. it's not a witness case, it's a paper case. we've been saying it, it might be more boring than we want it to be because it's just documents. >> all rick gates is there to do...

This? >> i think in this case it may be challenging to get a jury. it will be hard to find people who haven't heard about the case or haven't had strong opinions. this may take a few days and into the second week. i think we can expect to see the selection going on for a little while. >> isn't it kind of true that until the u.s. presents its case and we are underway that is not really -- that is the time when we know how this will progress. >> absolutely. i think the minute we hear the prosecutors give their opening statements that will give us a great road map of what we expect to see as far ...

The sofa, you're talking about somebody with $60 million of income and didn't declare it. as they conduct the investigation, i think mueller is sitting here saying i followed the money and i had no option but to say it wasn't an insignificant amount. manafort was wildly in violation of the law. >> what's peculiar is even at this late stage, it is unclear what manafort's defense is at the trial. remember, rick gates who is with him every step of the way is going to be testifying that the whole thing was an illegal scam, tax avoidance, money laundering. what's the defense? rick gates is trying t...

Present. a lot of this case is a paper case and the witnesses are going to be backing up those documents and there are other witnesses who are very close to him, his former business partner. >> rick gates. >> rick gates, and so, i mean, at some point it's going to have to don on him, this is not a winning strategy that he has. i think it's a very tough case for him to win. >> the reason i wanted to have you on is, you wrote a letter to secretary of homeland security, kirstjen nielsen, about the separation policy the administration put in place. you resigned from the homeland security advisory ...