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Had been turned over to house investigators in lawsuits. but actually bernie karrik, a key person, an old friend of giuliani's in new york who was a top investigator and coordinator of this effort to try to undermine what the vote was to not elect donald trump, he was one of the people that was funneling information to rudy giuliani. and when the house asked for documents from him, when lawsuits asked for documents from bernie karrik, he was declining to turn them over saying they were part of the umbrella of things that should not be handed over because giuliani was a lawyer and working on th...

Make you'll have many people come in, each of his statements like these will be played before the jury and will not be rebutted. at a minminimum, they didn't che dissemination. that's a separate crime under the espionage act. maybe they don't have that beyond a reasonable doubt. but we certainly have someone who is ready and willing to disseminate and the most sensitive materials that's in the indictment, paragraph 6a, up high, part of the prosecution's case too to say, look who we have here. look at his mindset, and, by the way, everything he said in public statements is, a, shifting, and, b,...

Greatly appreciate it. and jon meacham, we have all known from the very beginning. mike pence was going to have to testify. the supreme court has not done every privilege claim that donald trump has weekly thrown up and they're all going to have to testify because they believe a crime may have been committed here, and so we're going to -- i mean, we're going to see mike pence. we're going to see all of the presidents, we're going to see the presidents lawyers, go testify here. where does this end. >> well, it was a coup, right? that's what we're talking about here. the fact that it didn't work...

Donald trump put his lawyer in jeopardy, potentially by lying to his lawyer about certain facts. because of that, you now have this exception coming into play. it generally goes into, you know, behaviors of the lawyer, behaviors of the client, and how that affects that whole idea of attorney-client privilege. and doing things that break that privilege. in this case, there was clearly evidence there that donald trump probably, looking at it from that standpoint, said something, told his lawyer, gave his lawyer information, put his lawyer in the situation where that privilege claim could not be ...

Where they were just slow walking it for two years. which is hard to understand the flip side of this. i would say this to other things about this, which about me. number one, raffensperger call deals with illegality, and the ball passed by the guilty, and this donald trump. i mean, you talk to raffensperger when your best skin donald trump exclusively to see if he broke the law. the thing is they did talk to white house lawyers last week. that is huge. as weird as this is, as weird and as late as this all seems. the fact that they broke down that wall, over top of the white house lawyers, and...