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Outright defy, two of them, ban, and navarro, are awaiting criminal trial. two, this was, as far as i've seen, a very public notice of, we have evidence of further witness tampering. three, the doj can act, on its own. congress can, also, refer. this is the type of crime, with a lot of discussion about whether you refer the specific situation, for what i would call, substantive crimes. coups, election fraud, elector fraud, that kind of thing. this is what they call a process crime. but, the process this committee can confirm by letter, or statement, these kinds of things. mueller went far, it ...

Testimony that you see at criminal trials, about tampering with witnesses, which is a crime, right? this is what this looks like. >> there is nothing a congressional committee can do about witness intimidation, but there is something the justice department can do. this is another thing, where the committee is saying to merrick garland, publicly, look what he is doing. do you want to allow this? is this what you want to allow? you need to get into this investigation. it looks like merrick garland's into this investigation, but, they are trying to make it, in effect, embarrassing for merrick gar...

>> yeah, i mean, look, at this point we believe based on our source, durham is wrapping up his report. his investigation is pretty much completed. if he has some other big shoe to drop, we expect it would happen by now. and just for context, mueller's investigation, right, the trump-russia investigation, 34 people were indicted, three companies. again, this investigation, this investigation of the investigators, has gone on longer than mueller and this is only the second person charged. and if you remember the president, the former president and his allies would attack mueller saying that a lo...

Attack mueller, saying that a lot of the stuff brought by mueller were so-called process crimes. well, that's what this is. i mean this is exactly fitting into the criticism that they made so often. and all of the things that they were expecting, right, this falls into a pattern. not only the unmasking investigation that you were talking about, there was also expectations that they were going to bring charges against people in the clinton foundation. obviously they wanted -- >> let's see. there was -- they had the unmasking allegations involving general michael flynn. investigations of hillary...

Application. again, that was false statements charge. one to have criticisms that republicans and the gop and the president's supporters made of neweler, they said a lot of these cases that they brought were process crimes. that's kind of what we're talking about. we're talking about what seems to be process crimes about whether suss man lied to the fbi when he had this conversation. again, at the time, jim, it was well known that sussman represented the clinton campaign. this was not a surprise to the fbi. they spent some time investigating it. but they already had an investigation of the tru...