of an at-risk high school. three victims so far. the suspect or suspects still at large. the school there is on lockdown. we ll hand it over to jake tapper with more of this coverage. jake? welcome to the lead. i m jake tapper. you re looking at live pictures from kptv in portland, oregon. we re beginning today with breaking news in our national lead. you re looking right now at live pictures, as i said, about a school shooting in north portland at rosemary anderson high school, where at least three victims have been shot, three people shot according to the fire department. it is unknown if the people shot are dead or alive. portland police say the suspects have fled. they would not say if they were still believed to be armed or if they clashed with police. nearby jefferson high school and portland community college in lockdown, we re told. media have been told to set up at north killingsworth street and kirby avenue. that s the staging area. we ll update more on that story as soon as we know more. but to recap, there has been a school shooting in north portland, oregon, at rosemary anderson high school. as of right now, we know of at least three individuals who were shot. and we are waiting for more information as we learn it. we ll bring to it you as soon as we get it. now let s turn to our money lead. a not-so-happy friday for wall street. stocks tanking today. the dow tumbling 110 points this morning before sliding further and ending the day down about 300 points. cnn money correspondent alison kosik is live at the new york stock exchange. alison, another day, another day of bad news. why do the markets keep falling? reporter: it s all about oil, jake. plunging oil prices taking a toll on investors today yet again. oil falling almost 4%, settling below 58 a barrel. the international energy agency saying global demand for oil is going to fall next year as supply is growing. what s rattling wall street is the question of what s really behind this drop in oil prices? the concern is because economies in europe and asia are slowing down. and you look at the plunge in oil over the past six months. it s happened really fast making investors very nervous. if you drive, you love the lower gas prices. in oklahoma city, you can fill up for $1.89 a gallon. that s just one city across the country that s enjoying these lower gas prices. it s like a tax cut putting an extra $100 a month into your pocket. and that extra money is going towards spending because retail sales numbers for november came in better than expected. but wall street sees the extra spending as a plus but today it s about worries that lower demand for oil is a symptom of slower growth for the rest of the world. jake? alison kosik in new york, thanks. our national lead right now is that monster storm slamming the west coast. the weather responsible for two deaths, both in portland, oregon, a young boy killed when a tree fell on the car in which he was traveling. another tree fell on the tent of a homeless man, killing him. the same system that washed this house into the ocean in washington state is still lashing the west coast. in california, some people ended up trapped inside their own homes. mud slides and houses crushed by big boulders. paul vercammen is live in that neighborhood in camarillo springs. it s a mess there and amazing that anyone survived. reporter: it s astonishing. these houses absolutely swallowed up by all these rocks, tons and tons of rock that is came down over the hill. you see utility workers trying to make sure everything is turned off in terms of the power and the gas. and down the street, we have ten houses around this part of camarillo springs that have been red-tagged. that means they re uninhabitable. they re swallowed up and surrounded by rocks. a harrowing story out of this house here. when the rocks came and surrounded the house, a couple was pinned inside along with their caregiver. and the fire department had to come in and pull them out. we talked to their son and he was so glad to hear that the caregiver and his 86-year-old parents survived this. when you think about what you see over there, these rocks and your parents at the age of 86 going through this, what does that say about them? that s pretty darn amazing. i heard about the rocks but until i looked at the sides of the houses and heard from some of the cameramen that went to the back and saw how expentensi the damage was, it catches you by surprise. reporter: why did this happen? because there was a major fire that roared through here about a year and a half ago. it stripped the vegetation from these hills. and then overnight, the weather service telling us in just three hours, they got an inch and a half to two inches of rain in an already saturated hillside. that s what the mud but mostly rock, as you can see, came roaring down here and engulfed these houses, jake. paul vercammen in camarillo springs, california, thank you so much. another amazing situation, the rescue of two people clinging to trees in the swollen los angeles river. at one point, the rushing water swept a rescuer downstream. luckily everyone survived. the threat of these intense waters bringing more mud slides is the biggest fear in california right now. areas once scorched by wildfires have nothing to hold back the debris. let s bring in mark gillalducci from berkeley, california. what is the main concern right now? how are you getting people out of harm s way from the potential mud slides? the most important factor right now is the ongoing consistent rain. at times, the rain is going to be very heavy. we ve identified those areas that could potentially be impacted by mud flows. we know where the burn scars are from this past summer. we have done mandatory evacuations in all of those areas where they potentially could result in mud flows. that s given us the ability to get folks out of harm s way and get the area closed off to potentially other people who may be impacted by that. up north, flooding was the big problem. you have crews racing to reopen roads and get power restored. we re heading into the weekend where more people could be leaving their homes. how long do you see this clean-up process lasting? well, given the fact that it is still raining and we ll be between two storms. another storm will be coming behind this one in the next day or so. the crews have been out. they were out before the storm hit and being prepared to respond. and they worked all through the storm to keep the drains open and keep the highways clear. but we anticipate it will take a few weeks to be able to get through the clean-up process throughout the state. you had as of now, knock on wood, no deaths reported in california. we ve heard of two in oregon. you say preplanning is responsible for a lot of that, right? well, absolutely. we had really the great opportunity of seeing the storm coming towards us, which gave us the ability to do a lot of outreach to the citizens of california and to our public safety agencies, to our emergency managers throughout the state of california. to get the word out about winterizing your home, what to do when it started to rain hard, how to drive through water. and all of those were great messages that we were able to put forth. and i think it really did play out well for us. we are blessed. at this point we have nod had any reports of fatalities. mark, thank you so much. turning to our world lead, anarchy in the skies today. heathrow airport in london had to divert flight after flight when its computers failed, saddling one of the world s busiest hubs. an hour ago, a spokesman told cnn they have ruled out a cyberattack. and they say it was a hiccup in their state-of-the-art computers. cnn aviation correspondent rene marsh joins us now. even if it wasn t a cyberattack, this does expose just how easily our way of managing airplanes in this computerized world can easily implode. you re absolutely right. it truly is a vulnerable that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. if you re flying through london, one thing is certain today, you can expect delays for hours to come. about 100 flights in and out of heathrow, a major international hub, canceled. and even more delays. and then there s the ripple effect. it s all because of this computer failure, a real-life demonstration of just how a downed computer system can cripple air travel for thousand and thousands of travelers. this is what traffic in the skies over london looks like on a normal day. this is what it looks like today after a major disruption from what officials call a computer failure at a british control center. we ll obviously work to make sure it never happens again. it s a complex system. failures do occur and we plan for those failures and have a plan in place for those failures. reporter: london heathrow airport, one of the busiest airports in the world, at a standstill today. no flights going in or out. we ve been waiting on the plane for an hour. reporter: the airspace closed after the system that helps coordinate flights in the crowded airspace went down. many planes, diverted. an hour and 20 minutes later, the problem at the air traffic control center was fixed. but the damage had been done. the ripple effect felt at airports across the uk. heathrow saying the flight disruptions could continue to saturday. delays also in paris. u.s. carriers also experiencing some delays. the question now, what caused the system failure? british officials have ruled out a hack and aviation security analysts agree. there s been a lot of attempts. but there have not been any through the firewall to take control of any kind of control in any way. so unless this is a first time, i don t think that s what happened here. reporter: there are back-up systems, but as we saw in chicago this september, when wires were cut and a fire ignited inside an faa facility disrupting thousands of flights for days, those redundancies, may not be enough to prevent disrupted travel on a major scale. the majority of problems we are seeing are with international carriers like british airways and some of the other british carriers. we know the u.s. carriers, some of them, experiencing just a handful of delays. what you really want to do is make sure you call your carrier if you re headed in that direction to make sure you won t be impacted. more evidence of the vulnerability in this new computer age of what can happen because of a glitch. exactly. one glitch and so many people, their flight plans disrupted. rene marsh, thank you so much. let s go back to the breaking news out of portland, oregon. we are looking right now at some live pictures from kptv of rosemary anderson high school where there s been a school shooting. let s go over what we know so far. at least three victims, all students, have been shot. police say the students were transported from the scene, they were conscious and breathing when they left the scene and they ve been taken to nearby emmanuel medical center, we re told. portland, oregon, police say the suspect or suspects have fled. police would not say if the individuals, the suspects, were still armed or if they clashed with police. we re also told nearby jefferson high school and portland community college in portland, oregon, are on lockdown. rosemary anderson high school is an alternative high school that opened in 1983. it has just under 200 students. let s go now to rich tyler on the phone with the portland fire department. rich, are you there? are you still looking for the shooter? yes. portland police is looking for the shooter. we as a fire department provided the emergency medical services to the students that were transported. what can you tell us about the students? three students, all wounded. what kinds of wounds were they, how serious? i do not know the extent of the wounds. all i know is they were all three shot and transported to emmanuel hospital. we re just learning about this. can you tell us what time it happened? approximately 30 minutes ago. just about 30 minutes ago you got the call and you went there. and do you have any idea how serious the wounds are? we heard one report that somebody was shot in the back. are they considered to be life-threatening injuries? do you have any idea? at this point, we re treating all of them as life-threatening injuries. the physicians there at emmanuel hospital will do an excellent job of taking care of them to the best of their ability. portland police is on scene, not only investigating the shooting here but also out looking for the shooter. it s about 1:15 portland time. you re saying it happened about half an hour ago, so about 12:45. were the students outside the school or inside the school? do you know? they were inside the school. and what other details can you tell us? is the shooter or shooters thought to be students? is it more than one shooter? we don t know that at this time. and what kind of capability do you have there at the scene right now? how many fire trucks are there? how many police cars are there? i don t know exactly how many. we pulled a full multi-patient incident for the fire department. and the police bureau brought everybody in, including their task force to help assist. what message do you have for the parents who are learning about this right now? i would imagine if it only happened about half an hour ago, is there a staging area for parents to meet up with their students? are the students inside the school in lockdown? yes. the students inside the school are in lockdown. we re asking all parents who are coming to pick up their students to come to north kirby and north killingsworth court. there we have police officers who will help reunify the parents with the students. we re told by the portland police this is not an active shooter situation. police are beginning to investigate the incident. translate that for us. that means that the shooter is not inside the school itself or thought to be near the school but he or she is still at large, i believe, correct? correct. but no longer actively shooting anyone. they have left the scene and are no longer here at the school. we re told that nearby jefferson high school and portland community college are also in lockdown. are there any other businesses or schools that are in lockdown? is that just because they re close by? correct. yeah, that s standard protocol to lock those down. keep those students safe as we as the portland police looks for the shooter or shooters. what can you tell us about rosemary anderson high school? we re told it s an alternative high school, has fewer than 200 students. that s about the extent of what i know. it s a high school that started here a few years back and has a small student population. this is an area of north portland, is that right? that s correct. what can you tell us about north portland? is this an area that has a lot of shootings in the neighborhood? is it an area that is high crime or is this obviously school shootings are horrific whenever they happen. but is this unusual for there to be a shooting in this neighborhood? it s unusual to have a shooting at a school anywhere. unfortunately it s becoming more and more usual these days, it seems. lieutenant tyler, i do appreciate your time. hopefully we can come back to you and get more information about this school shooting. we re all thinking about the three students who were wounded in this attack. thank you so much, lieutenant rich tyler. no problem. in our world lead, he is one of the few people connected to the cia torture scandal who is in prison right now. the operative who claims to have blown the whistle on the whole program. what does he think about the shocking details in the new senate torture report? we ll go to that prison interview next. 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ask your doctor about farxiga and visit our website to learn how you may be able to get every month free. welcome back to the lead. we continue to follow breaking news in our national lead. you re looking at pictures of rosemary anderson high school in north portland, oregon. police say there s been a school shooting. let s go over what we know so far. there are at least three victims, all students. they have been shot. police say they were shot we just heard from portland fire department which said that the students were shot inside the school. police say the three were transported from the scene, conscious and breathing and taken to nearby emmanuel medical center. portland police say it is not an active shooter situation, meaning the shooter is not on the scene or inside the school. but the suspect or suspects have fled, according to police. police will not say if the individuals or individual was still armed or if that person clashed with police. rosemary anderson high school has been it s a place where there are under 200 students. it s an alternative school. it has been declared safe. police have nearby jefferson high school and portland community college in lockdown because they are close by. that is standard operating procedure, we re told, from a member of portland, oregon s emergency management services. let s go to cnn justice reporter, evan perez, who has new details about this school shooting. evan, what can you tell us? as often happens in these situations, there s a lot of conflicting information early on in this case, as well. the police are indicating that they believe the shooting actually happened outside of the school. i know you just said, i think the fire department said they transported three people from the scene. and they believe that the shooting they were shot inside the school. we ll have to wait a little while for these details to be clarified by the police. we know that the suspect the person who was believed to carry out the shooting has fled the scene and the police are now preparing to provide a little more detail on who they re looking for. we know that they have now alerted the federal authorities who are now heading to the scene. i ve talked to people who say the atf is heading to the scene and i expect that the fbi is as well because as they that tends to happen in these cases. the feds come in to try to provide any assistance that the local police may need, including trying to figure out where the gun might have come from from the suspect, the suspect used in this shooting. right now, we know that there were three victims and we know that the suspect is no longer there. so we expect that the police are going to provide an update in a little while. there s not a lot more that we know from how this went down. it s one of those situations where it always triggers a lot of response from federal and local authorities. the feds come in typically to try to do gun trace, to try to see if they can help, perhaps get some of the background on who the shooter was, if there was any information in their computers or in any of their background that indicated why this might have happened. again, it s still very early. and we don t know exactly what precipitated, what caused this shooting, whether or not there was a disagreement or whether it was something that was premeditated. that s right. always a good reminder that information coming in so soon after an incident like this can often be conflicting. we re tole the incident happened roughly 12:45 portland time, 3:45 eastern time. all three students were wounded but were conscious and breathing. the fire department spokesman said they were treating the injuries as if they were life-threatening, not that they are. but they are treating them with urgency. evan perez, thank you for that. we re going to come back to you as you learn more information. i have on the phone now, parker bouldin, who lives in the neighbor. parker, you were on the scene just after the shooting, i m told. tell us what you saw. well, i heard a siren. i was in the apartment complex right on the corner. and i heard a siren. then i heard a couple more. they all seemed to be coming our direction. so i walked outside and there was a very small gathering of people just a few cops at the time that i got there. and they were starting to take the victims out on stretchers. and you were in your apartment building when you were watching this? no. i was on the street right outside of the school that it happened at. and can you tell us anything in terms of the urgency with which these students were being taken onto the ambulance and rushed off? i just ask because it might say something about the seriousness of the wounds. it was very quickly. they were out of the school, they were on stretchers. they actually came by where i was standing next to a couple of people who knew the victim. and he was responsive, talking back to them. he seemed sort of i don t know, he wasn t going in and out of consciousness but he was not very in clear mind, you know. he was definitely in a bad situation. and they were quickly put on and taken to emmanuel hospital right around the corner. that s what we were told. did you see all three shooting victims or one of them. i did. i saw all three of them. were they three males, do you know? two males they were from what i could i saw two males. i didn t see the other victim very clearly. i saw two males who had bandages, around the midsection. you describe one of the victims as having been talking, which is great news. what about the other two? were they speaking at all, could you tell? the other one that i saw clearly, his eyes were open. he was definitely alert. he wasn t talking to anybody. nobody was really shouting at him like the other victim. and he was alert but i just saw it for a short amount of time. is there anything you can tell us about anything anyone may have said about why this happened or anything about the shooter or shooters? i didn t hear anything about the shooter or the shooters. it is sort of the conversation on the scene that there s a lot of gang activity in that area, specifically in that school because it s an alternative school. this stuff doesn t happen all the time, but that there s definitely murmurs of gang violence. what do you mean by it s an alternative school? we ve heard that description of rosemary anderson high school. what do you mean by that? just from what i overheard, i didn t know much about the school. i don t want to say it because it might sound offensive. it was an alternative school for people who maybe have some troubles or difficulties with their upbringing. fair enough. we re told also that jefferson high school and portland community college which are nearby are also in lockdown, rosemary anderson high school no longer in lockdown, although it was at one point. how far away are jefferson high school and portland community college? jefferson high school is right behind kirby is the street that that school is on. and jefferson high school is right behind that. and then in the other direction, northeast is p.c.c. and it s just a block away. both of them are about a block away. parker boulden, appreciate your sharing with us what you saw just minutes after this shooting took place. thank you so much. appreciate it. on the phone right now, we have andrew theen, a reporter with the oregonian, which is the daily newspaper in the city of portland. thank you for joining us. what can you tell us? we know just some very basic preliminary information. anything you could tell us would be great. sure. i think you probably know as much as we do at this point, jake. when my colleague and i arrived on scene about 12:35 or so, 20 minutes after the shooting, i spoke with a neighbor, tamara king, who lives on the other side of north albina to the west of the school. she reported hearing five shots in rapid succession and saw kids running in the street, including some kids diving under a car near north killingsworth court and albina, which is right next to this storefront school. she was one of the folks who called 911 and that s as much as i can tell you from witnesses that i ve spoken to. i was just listening to the police spokesman as he gave updates to the media here. your information is that the shooting took place at about 12:15 portland time on the west coast a little before that, yeah. what can you tell us about rosemary anderson high school? the previous caller, guest, witness not a witness to the shooting but witness to after the shooting was saying that people on the street were talking about how there is gang activity in this area. is that accurate? well, that s something that tamara king, the neighbor i spoke to, mentioned as well, that she wasn t surprised that this happened in the neighborhood. she s lived here since 2007. i want to say last summer, there was a shooting on albina as well, north of here a little bit at a bus stop. and police are saying that initial reports are they believe the shooter was gang affiliated. they stressed they can t say that for the victims. so we re just kind of waiting until we know a little bit more about who these two young boys and one girl who were injured in the shooting. but that s really all i can say at this point. i think it s a misperception among people when they hear about gang shootings. they think the victims of gang shootings are fellow members and that s absolutely not the case. many times the victims of gang shootings are completely innocent people in the wrong place at the wrong time or individuals who were certainly doing nothing to merit a shooting. the police said that the three individuals were shot and then when they left the school, all were conscious and breathing. the fire department spokesman with whom we spoke said they were treating their injuries as if they were life-threatening but that didn t necessarily mean that s what they were. what s your understanding? the police spokesman, sergeant pete simpson, said they were all conscious and breathing. anytime you have a gunshot vick and you can say that, that s a good thing. i was listening to the witness say this area is close to portland community college and jefferson high school. it s also relatively close to legacy emmanuel hospital, which is a trauma hospital. so that s a good thing in terms of proximity. but beyond that, i can t really say because we don t really know. andrew theen, hold on one second. i want to bring in evan perez, our justice correspondent, who has some new information. evan, what can you tell us? we just got an update from the portland police. they clarify that the shooting occurred outside of the school, that the three victims, the three shooting victims, actually went to the school after they were shot. they say they ve not identified the victims but they say they were two males and one female and that they ran to the high school after the shooting. the shooter fled the scene. so now we have a manhunt looking for this shooter to try to figure out what happened here, jake. so the latest from the police is that the shooting occurred outside of the school nearby and that the two males and one female who were shot ran to the school after they were shot, jake. that would explain why the fire department thought that the shooting might have been inside the school. right, and why they were transported from there. right. andrew theen, what can you tell us about north portland, the area in which this school is and if you know anything more about rosemary anderson high school, we re told is an alternative school of fewer than 200 students. what can you tell us about that? well, i can t tell you too much about the school itself. i wasn t familiar with the school. i m familiar with the area. it s inner north portland. it s a gentrifying part of town, i guess you could say. as many larger urban areas of the u.s. like i said, portland community college is right here. they have one of their branches, jefferson high school, one of the portland public schools, is within spitting distance. it s an active area of town. there s coffeeshops, there are restaurants. people are out and about trying to see what s going on. it s close to interstate 5. andrew, i would think that it s not an active shooter situation because the shooter s not there. but there is somebody on the loose, at least one individual who shot three young people, three teenagers, two boys and a girl. how big is the police presence when it comes to the manhunt? did sergeant pete simpson of the portland police department shed any light on how intense this search is right now? he didn t. and i can t really speak to that. i m not aware of any other details as far as a manhunt. but i can tell you that people are do not look concerned for their safety in the immediate area where i am. people are going about their day. if the shooting, just to recap for individuals who may just be tuning in right now. shortly before 12:15 portland, oregon, time, there s 3:15 east coast time, there was a shooting at a school at rosemary anderson high school outside the school. three individuals, two boys and a girl, were shot. they were wounded. they left the scene, according to portland police, conscious and breathing, we re told anecdotally from some witnesses that at least one of them was still talking and the police told andrew theen with the portland oregonian that anytime after a shooting you have people talking, that is obviously a good sign. those individuals were rushed to the hospital, nearby emmanuel medical center, which has a trauma unit, which is very, very close. we are monitoring the situation. there is not an active shooting situation because the shooter is no longer inside or outside the school. but the individual or individuals are still wanted and on the loose. portland police are trying to find out who he or she or they are. we re going to take a very quick break. when we come back, we ll have more news about this shooting at rosemary anderson high school in portland, oregon. don t settle for 4g lte coverage that s smaller or less reliable when only one network is america s largest and most reliable 4g lte network: verizon. with xlte, our 4g lte bandwidth has doubled in over 400 cities. and now, save without settling. get 2 lines with 10gb of data for just $110. .or 4 lines for just $140. and get a $150 bill credit for each smartphone you switch. only on verizon. this is the first power plant in the country to combine solar and natural gas at the same location. during the day, we generate as much electricity as we can using solar. at night and when it s cloudy, we use more natural gas. this ensures we can produce clean electricity whenever our customers need it. welcome back to the lead. we re continuing to follow breaking news in our national lead. a shooter or shooters are on the loose after wounding three students outside rosemary anderson high school in north portland, oregon. let s go back and reset what we know so far. there are at least three victims, all of them students, teenagers. they have been shot. a witness tells us he saw two males and a female being loaded into ambulances. police say the victims were transported from the scene. they were conscious and breathing, at least one of them speaking, according to a witness with whom we spoke. they were taken to nearby emmanuel medical center which does have a trauma unit. the fire department told us they are treating these injuries as if they are life-threatening, although that doesn t necessarily mean that they are life-threatening. the hospital isn t indicating what condition the students are in. as i said, the fire department saying they are being treated as if the injuries are life-threatening. police telling us that rosemary anderson high school is no longer an active shooter situation, meaning the shooter isn t on the premises or nearby. but we are told the portland police department is engaging in a manhunt or menhunt for the shooter. that s under way. we re told this began shortly after 12:15 or so, portland, oregon, time. there s 3:15 east coast time, obviously. and that it began outside the school, although after they were shot, the students went inside the school. pamela brown is in new york with more information. pamela, what can you tell us? reporter: we re learning at this hour as we speak that atf agents are en route to the scene right now. what they re going to be doing is running ballistics, try to recover the weapon that was used in this shooting and then trace that weapon, find out where it came from. so atf agents are en route. we typically know in these situations, that fbi agents are usually deployed as well to help with the local authorities. as we still try to learn exactly who is behind this shooting and all of the details, what we can tell you is that the fbi did a recent active shooter study because there have been so many of these types of incidents, especially in the past few years. what we learned from that study, jake, is that all but six of the 160 shootings involved male shooters and only two of those, only two of the 160 involved more than one shooter. so oftentimes in these situations, we see a male acting alone, someone who is disillusioned in some way. once they figure out who is behind this like you point out earlier, it could be more than one person but more than likely it is just one person. they re going to look at indicators, locker room through their social media and try to figure out what s behind this. three victims taken to the hospital right now and this is a very serious situation. of course, caused a lot of panic among the parents there when initially it was reported there was a school shooting, a shooting on the premises. that was the initial understanding. we learn now that this happened just off the school campus. it happened about an hour and a half ago outside rosemary anderson high school, two boys and a girl, teenagers shot, wounded, taken from the scene we re going to go right now, pamela, stay with us. i want to go to evan perez, our justice correspondent, who has a little bit more information about the shooting. evan, what are you being told? this is partly adding a little bit more context to what pamela was saying as well. this feels a little different from a lot of these other shootings that we ve seen in schools, again, this one happened outside of it. for that reason, i m being told by authorities that it just seems perhaps a little bit different. typically in most of these shootings that we ve seen, by the time the police get there, the shooter has already shot himself or the situation is over. in this case, this person tried to get away or has gotten away. so in some ways, thfls seems like according to the authorities looking at this, it s more of a criminal situation. it s very early in the process, very early in this case to know exactly happened, especially since they re still looking for the suspect. but it does feel like it s a little bit different. as pamela pointed out, looking at all the history of all these shootings, you typically see a certain pattern. and this one just falls out of that pattern. we re told, by the way, if there are any parents of students at rosemary anderson high school, locatil police are saying the staging for parent reunification for the students, the school is no longer in lockdown. the parent reunification area is being held at killingsworth court and kirby, near the jefferson high school football field, jefferson high school, along with portland community college, we re told, were still in lockdown, which is standard operating procedure, police protocol, after a school shooting situation. pamela brown, in a situation like this, obviously the federal government trying to do whatever it can to help. but as evan noted, usually in these situations, the school shooter, at least in the ones that we ve covered in the last couple of years, the school shooter has been shot by police or has taken his own life. in this situation, we have a manhunt under way. i imagine that it s something that federal law enforcement could be helping with as well. absolutely. like we mentioned earlier, atf agents are on their way to help out. we presume the fbi is on its way to help out and provide the assistance. but i want to point out what i think is key here. they re saying this is not an active shooter situation and that the perimeter is secure. so i think that does provide us some clues that it appears that at least that area where the school is is secure. and if there s a gunman on the loose, then i would be surprised if they would say this is not an active shooter situation. so, again, we re still trying to learn more details, whether this shooter or shooters are even still alive. as we ve seen in so many other school shootings, just the one recently in washington state, we ve seen that the gunman dies from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. and that really is there s a pattern to these school shootings. unfortunately they happen far too often. and a lot of times it s a male acting alone. again, we re waiting to learn more details on this. but that s what studies have shown, as i pointed out earlier, the fbi study. all but six of 160 incidents over the past several years involved male shooters and only two involved more than one shooter. just to put it in perspective as we await more details on the specifics of this particular shooting, jake. in fact, we are waiting for the portland police to give an update on the information about the suspect in this school shooting in north portland, oregon. evan perez, you have new information? we know that the fbi has now arrived at the scene. they re still calling this a local investigation as they typically do. obviously they want to give the local police a chance to figure out what exactly happened here before they get involved, if there s anything that needs to be done from a federal standpoint. we know they say they re still looking for a shooter and they haven t provided any update as to who they re looking for or what that suspect description is. but the fbi is there to provide any assistance. atf is already there, as we mentioned already. typically, they re just there to lend assistance to the local authorities as they are trying to figure out exactly what happened here. again, this happened outside of the school. so it s a little different from some of the other shootings that we ve seen, which typically have been inside. you typically don t see a suspect try to make a getaway as the police have reported here. evan perez and pamela brown, stick around. when we come back, we ll have more information about this school shooting in portland, oregon. 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secretary of defense here tonight. we know last week he made a surprise announcement at his first thank you rally saying yes he s indeed choosing general james mattis for defense secretary. but the fact that two will be up on stage together, certainly notable, especially given that is the military friendly town. so donald trump hoping to cash in on the energy here almost to validate his pick for secretary of defense. and we know trump has many thank you tours and rallies ahead. just two this week alone and thursday he ll be in iowa and friday in michigan. you heard him taking credit for what he said is a $50 billion investment by softbank. what are you learning about this? reporter: i have to say not a lot of detail coming from the trump transition team or the company tonight. but certainly a little showmanship on the part of the president elect today really trotting out on the ceo of the company and trump towers there before cameras gathered. contours of the deal are $50 billion investment in the u.s. by this tech firm, softbank, saying that could create about 50,000 jobs, new jobs here in the u.s. but the timing of the detail, how it was brokered, when it was formally brokered still very unclear tonight. it is notable that in october this company announced plans with the backing of saudi arabia for a hundred billion in new investments across the world in tech companies so is still very unclear if that is part of this or a separate deal. thank you very much sunland. the money already raised so far and the fast vast majority is from saudi arabia. outfront now retired u.s. army major general. and some other great people. phillip, let me start with you. it is a very significant event tonight. this is obviously going to be big for donald trump. but to have general mattis by his side, a very significant. so far he s announced several cabinet picks. none has he given this star power of appearing side by side with him. michael flynn is going to be his proposal for national security advisor. i was with him on the campaign trail with some regularity. but first time we ve seen one of the the cabinet picks do. this mattis is generally seen as one of the more obvious acceptable candidates for the party as well. so this is not someone that needs to be bolstered. donald trump is incredible right guy who s in charge of the defense department. i find this very reassuring. for those critical of trump for the right or left concerned about how he would be as commander in chief this we should all be behind this waiver. we should all be encouraging the senate to give this waiver. base want competent, serious people in this administration. and donald trump has chosen an exceptionally competent and serious person. jim mattis, is one of the most revered generals of his generation. a big thought leader. an amazing following in the pentagon and with the military. and he has some views that differ with trump. so the fact that donald trump is willing to put this leader out, side by side with him. i don t think he s building him up. i think he s making a statement that these are the sorts of people that are going to populate my national security team. different than him on water boarding. general mattis doesn t support it. different on russia. multiple, multiple places. tonight donald trump is going to walk out. saying he s not going to vote for this waiver. this issue is a very important point in american politician zo and so o you are going to have obviously him trumpeting general mattis. general mat sis going to speak and it will be interesting to see how how long he speaks for. and then trump is no doubt going to talk about this $50 billion investment. it is not an investment yet was a they don t even necessarily have the money raised so it is very unclear. what we understand is that $50 billion softbank says they are going to invest in the united states. trump tweeted masa, softbank in japan is willing to invest. masa said he would never do this if we had not won the election. as the stunning number. what we re going to see. donald trump as we all know by now is unconventional. this is going to be an unconventional presidency with an unconventional president. he s the only one in of the 45 presidents 44 people. grover cleveland twice. that has a business background. all the others were politicians to some degree. or generals. this is the first person to go directly from the private sector without any stops in politics before that. so you are going to see a lot of this kind of thing as we go through here. and his businessman s mind working. now sure is he going to use it to political advantage? yes. but it is going to help him without doubt. so here is my question about this. when i saw the $50 billion. i said i don t get it. and i still don t get it. because there is a a lot of questions here. not all of it s been raised. the part that has been raised, comes from saudi arabia. which historically trump wouldn t want a let me stop you. you are trying to take several months later said well they weren t as shovel ready as we thought. at least he said something. let s see if donald trump said well that 50 billion is only 3 billion and we weren t able to invest it there. what if they are 2u8 able to get it done. i don t think the media will no i m sure of that. there are a couple of things that concern me. the first i worked under commerce secretary ron brown and he announced deals likes this all the time. first of all they were american companies, to announce these deals where they would bring american jobs. it is fine that and it is good for him from a marketing perspective is this is really going greet 50,000 jobs. we don t know that yeet. whether it is true are but the reason the commerce ask or the president announced these deals is because they actually had something do with it. did trump have anything to do with this deal? and is he going make any money off this deal? is he invested at all through a business partnership or anything in this company? we have no clue. that is what concerns me. we can all agree, this isn t a bad thing. it is probably at the min questidebate how much but is cannot be the seoul focus of the economic strategy. he s going to have to deal with le loopholes and the others. without that announce it is deals is not sufficient. but announcing the deals isn t a bad thing. not a bad thing per se but as the it is a bad thing if it is not more than shoemenship. i. the leader here of this company joust everyone understands he says i m go doing raise a hundred billion, biggest fund every. and in the process of raidsing it. and 40 billion comes from saudi arabia. that actually is highly relevant in this country. when you look at the merger and whether it is going to be approved. if you are a chinese company bag in you generally don t get this approved. saudi arabia, i think a lot of people would be critical of. this is so nebulous that donald trump is getting up and saying more jobs and we ll see what happens. i think it is worth noting that on softbank s part there is showmanship as well. but this is a company that owns a stake in sprint that was trying to figure out how to do this merger earlier this year. and seems very likely, wall street journal reporting seems likely they are going to try this again under the trump administration. there are politics all over the place here. we ll see how it shakes out in terms of money in terms of jobs but this is not a benif sent gentlemen coming to the united states saying here i give you all these jobs for no reason. up next, donald trump live with general mat i both going to speak and then trump and his battle today with boeing. he came out and slammed frankly america s biggest exporter over air force one. and trump s choice for national security advisor under fire for spreading wild conspiracy theories. should trump dump michael flynn? and the breaking news. live pictures of the protesters gathering at texas a&m campus this hour. you see them. a white supremacist is speaking there tonight and we ll go there live. made for real, real life. brewed generation after generation. this beer is fiercely loyal. only with moravian barley. coors banquet. that s how it s done. donald trump demanding the defense department cancel a contract with boieing for the nw presidential planes. it is out of control. it is going to be over $4 billion for the air force one program. and i think it is ridiculous. i think boeing is doing a bit of a number. we want fwoeng make a lot of money but not that much money. boeing releasing a statement which reads in part. we re not sure where he s getting that number from. right now boeing only has a contract for design and development of the new air force one. boeing is at the mercy of donald trump in a lot of ways here. that is part of the reality. however they are the biggest exporter from the united states. the second biggest defense contractor in this fight. who wins? well i think they are to some respect to the mercy of the donald trump. but there is a whole procuring process that exists in the pentagon. you can t just sign a way a massive contract. and also major repercussions for the u.s. economy if another defense contractor replaced a lot of the foreign business or u.s. business boeing would get. obviously this is probably not a good idea. i think tonight trump being up there with mattis, very good. fantastic image. trump and pence meeting with the congressional leaders, pooirn and mitch mcconnelling talk about this things day want to get past, good images. tweets like this not a great image. i would stronger recommend the ladder not the former. let s go through the time line here because i think this is very interesting. look, the chicago tribune today wrote up some comments that the boeing ceo said about donald trump. the ceo said these on friday but a appeared this morning for the first time in print. the chicago tribune. about the ceo of boeing, he s suggesting the trump teen and congress back off the 2016 anti-trade rhetoric and perceived threats to punish other countries with higher tariffs tariffs fes. that was 7:30 a.m. at 8:52 trump tweets boeing is building a brand new 747 air force one for future presidents. cancel order. we saw last week he had this random out of blue tweet about flag burning. turned out he had been watching fox news and kids burning flags on fox news. he as a history of responding to things he s engaged with in the media through twitter. the problem is this causes boeing s stock price to plummet $2 before markets opened it. recovered by the end of the day and actually closed a little higher. but now cnbc is reporting there are people who are trying to figure out a algorithm to buy or sell stock based on donald trump tweets. these are if he s doing it because something he didn t like the chicago tribune, that s iffy. not the first time he s taken on an american company. ford. verizon. not the first time he s done this. the issue we have to decide is whou everybody responds. he s clearly going to continue to do this. it is not reasonable for us to believe that suddenly on january 20th, this is going stop. we have to decide how we look at this. and people have to decide what to take on board and how to deal but if i take a step back and i said how would someone at that rally see this? they might say if the costs are out of control with $4 billion. cancel that order. this is exactly the kind of cost control i want in washington. the folks in that crowd will respond exactly that way. and they will also respond and say i ve been on air force one. it is a wonderful aircraft. 20 people can take a shower at once. twenty i m being facetious. my point is it can can withstand electromagnetic pulses. this is a phenomenal piece of . but there are cost. 4 billion i think the president elect is probably correct. let s put some green eye shades on and look into that. but that crowd is going to respond very favorable. and he s also not the first president elect that when he opens his mouth there are going to be markets that move accordingly. so it is going to happen. if problem that millions of americans have with washington d.c. and the government is that this kind of situation where we re overpaying air force i mean is terribly symbolic. but i mean we could i used to work on the house budget committee. and we could watts through thousands of pages of things where there are cost overruns galore. this is part of the problem. so they are looking at this and saying yes. this is exactly what i want the president they also say it is dated. i needs to be updated. the greatest country in the world with a plane that reflects that. absolutely true. but there was a story in the post yesterday how the defense department sought out places they could cut money and then buried the report and said they didn t want to make the cuts. donald trump could have tweeted about that this morning. the question is why is donald trump tweeting about boeing? we don t know. it effected boeing. it effects boeing stockeds and yes spin will be good as we all know donald trump fights back. and i think one of the the problems with the bush 4 administration. so you are saying he did do it well it wouldn t surprise me in the least. one of the problems was all these opponents were out there with bush live and all this thing and the white house didn t fight back because apparently the president felt it was beneath him to get in all of this stuff etc. donald trump isn t going to do that. he s not going to sit there and let somebody attack his trade policies and just be quiet. and jeffrey is right. history supporters will eat this up. but this is the problem that donald trump has not yet understood. he s not just the president now of the people who supported him who got him i elected. he s the president who even now the 2.5 million people that hillary clinton is winning by the popular vote. he has to prove he wants to be the president for everybody. they eat this up at this rally but from the standpoint of those people who were terrified of electing him. this underscores where the terror exists, because he s lashing out. he s taking issue with the american people. his supports are. to everybody should have been gotten behind that because that was atrocious. all with me next. waiting for donald trump on stage for the first time with s pick for defense secretary. that is going start any moment in now. the motorcade arriving in fayetteville and calls for trump to dump his choice for national security advisor. he and his son who his is chief of staff and . and students at a texas university this hour banning together protesting a neo-nazi who was speaking tonight on the campus just around the corner where they were. we ll be there life. we ll be back. ! as close as two friends trying to annihilate each other can be. ahh, interception! that s because with fingerhut.com we can shop over 700,000 items from brand names like samsung, keurig and sony. go to fingerhut.com to get low monthly payments and the credit you deserve. and get great stuff like this awesome flat screen tv. 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(dad laughs) wow, you re laughing. that s not the way the world works. well, the world s changing. are you asking enough questions about the way your wealth is managed? wealth management, at charles schwab. my name is danita seaton. i m a gas service representative for pg&e here in oakland. when i work in oakland, i feel like i m home, because i grew up here in oakland, my family still lives here. every time i go to the customer s house, i treat them like they re my family. if they smell gas, or they don t have hot water, i m there to ensure that by the time that i leave, they feel safe and they can go back to their day to day life. to learn more about gas safety in your home, visit pge.com/safety together, we re building a better california. controversy is here. some of these tweets proving to be so controversial and damaging for both michael flynn and his son. and these tweets are not isolated. part of a series from both father and son that have pushed conspiracy theory, islam phobia, anti-semitic retweets but let s look at the couple of them. fist the son, michael flynn jr. one he tweeted on sunday about a false news story about a d.c. pizzeria and on sunday. the left seems to forget podesta e-mails and the many coincides tied to it. this is just outright b.s. for lack of a better term. i had my son s birthday party in this pizzeria. and yet he stuck to it. let s go to the father, michael flynn who s the nominee to be national security advisor. that is tweet he sent out one week before election day. you decide. nypd blows whistle on new hillary e-mails money laundering, sex crimes with children etc. must read. tweeting out a fake story about the democrat nominee one week to election day. so serious allegations and to be clear part of a pattern, erin. so that is what is causing this controversy. but now what about the role of michael flynn s son. earlier today they said he had no role with the transition. but clearly that is not the case. right. he s now been removed. we know he had a rolle because he s been removed from that role. the way it is described and vice president pence described it this way and others i ve speaken with is he was basically a scheduler and did administrative work for his father. enough where they requested a security clearance for him, which implies serious work. but that process now stopped and he s no longer in that role. to be clear michael flynn senior, something to interrupt him at this point becoming the closest national security advisor to the president. thank you jim. is it time for donald trump to say all right, forget it. first of all he want. these with positions to the executive office of the president and there is really no way to force his hand on this. i think it is important here by the way these tweets are atrocious so i m not going defend the tweets. it is important to separate michael flynn from his son. his son was doing the stuff and it looks as if michael flynn was doing, senior, pushing the bad tweets was in the con attention of the chain. campaign things get pretty emotional. get heated. may make sense for michael flynn senior to address that at some point and say he s turning off his twitter account and move on but in terms of saying there be some kind of mechanism to force the commander in chief s hand in choosing security advisor i don t care that is going happen. and he worked with michael flynn. you know him very well. he s going the man next to donald trump. the first voice donald trump here s on national security. he s promoted these false news stories as if they were true. you say during the campaign but he still did those things. how much does this concern you? is he the right man for the job? the concern really is one of judgment and contextually how are you going to perform. i know mike flynn were well. he s a tremendous asset. the president has a personal relationship with his national security advisor. that guy can do what he wants him to do. and we can t be captured by what previous national security advisors have done. if you look at others, that is about necessarily the model this president would have in store for mike flynn. he might want him to be a bomb thrower. he may say mike, i don t want you to bring all this together. i m going to get jim mattis do that. for example. what i want you to do is poke holes in all of these good ideas. because you can speak to menessly, you are a provocative guy and i want you to kick this stuff around before it gets to me. if he had that kind of strategy i would feel a tiny bit better. i don t think he puts that kind of thought into the people he has around him. and that is why this is so freakin scary. because this is the guy who will have donald trump ears ear. donald trump has proven he acts out a lot of times based on who the last person he had in his ear was. and the fact that this guy, michael flynn and himself tweeted and retweeted flagrant outright conspiracy theories and lies about hillary clinton, about the obamas. is this someone who can t tell truth from a lie? or is he ideology that whacko that he actually believe this is stuff. either way it is very terrifying. i agree with a lot of what you are saying but when you say who s this guy going to be around him? who s going to be advising him. like mike pompeo. leader in congress on national security issues leading the cia. jim mattis. leading the pentagon. those guys are the last one s whispering in donald trump s ear. clearly that is how he acts. we re going take a brief break. live picture as we re awaiting donald trump just a couple of moments away from this big rally where he ll be speaking to voters across the country. and more breaking news. we re going to texas. protesters gathering on the campus of the texas a&m. there is a white supremacist speaking there tonight and protesters gathers en masse. find new roads at your local chevy dealer. standing by for donald trump. president elect speaking at a rally. his pick for secretary of defense jamie mattis going to be with him. they are there now. so any moment biel we ll be going to fayetteville where they will be speaking. trump will introduce general mattis and then donald trump. we ll bring it all to you live. at this hour in the meantime, outrage over a white supremacist speaking on campus in texas, half a country away. live pictures of protesters gathering. rich spencer, he s been cheering trump s victory saying it s emboldened him and empowered him and he s done so using anti-semitic language. hail trump, hail our people. hail victory. chau [ cheers and applause ] sa sara ganim outfront right now. obviously a lot of protesters out to protest in this evening. reporter: that s right. these are aggie students. texas a&m students who are upset that richard spencer is here. they call his rhetoric hate speech and you can see there are several hundred of them out here protesting and the president of the universities greaagrees wit hem. but felt like he couldn t stomp on the first amendment and kick him out. he was invited here by a private citizen. it is a private event. even still these people are very upset. they are angry and i have to tell you erin, after sitting down with richard spencer myself today it is easy to understand why. would you describe yourself as a white supremacist. i m not a white supremacist, no. but there is really no mistaking his racist message. hail trump, hail our people. hail victory. reporter: no matter how much he tries to talk around it. the fact is only white people can support what we call western civilization. reporter: richard suspensor is the self professed leader of what we call the alt-right movement. he comes across as polished and steams to be trying to dial back the neo nazi imagery he s been recognized for. so how would you go through a process of removing people who are not white is this. they have come here and therefore they could go home. you can go home again. there are ways of whether it is a direct payment. what would you say though if mexican americans or african americans said hey we re going pay all the white people to leave and go back to europe? interesting prospect. item very flexible. obviously that is not like toy to happen. and spencer is even banned from traveling to most european countries because of his views. reporter: you studied history, right? a lot of of people the reason they don t like you is because they have studied history too and they see a lot of the things that you say as being very similar to hitler and other leaders who were responsible for mass genocide. i find this all very amusing. and this is the social justice so i hav so voyeur who will say literally hitler. no i think hitler in a way now is history. he did many things that are absolutely terrible that i would never support. reporter: we re told there are only a couple dozen people inside the event space where he s going begin speaking in a few minutes and some of those are probably protester, students inside the event space. so it is hard to see how many people he actually drew in. but it is never more apparent than when you were out here koufring a story like this how divided feelings are right now. is a remarks thank you very much. my gapanel is back. jeff what is your reaction when you hear some of of nose comments from that young man and hear him say donald trump has made him feel emboldened to come out and say this things. the head of the . that didn t make hillary clinton a communist or the heir to joseph stalin. this guy is a racist. tloz other way to say this. and to be perfectly candid i think the media is giving him way more attention than he deserves. the rally that was shown at the begin, i think there was something at the washington post somebody said like there were like 235 people in the room. this guy is so far on the fringe of american politics. he has nothing do with donald trump i don t care how much he talks about it. and donald trump doesn t want anything do with him. or should. i think the challenge here is not that there is a racist speaking to college campus and college students are upset. when i was in college that happened all the time. the collage is it is happening in the condition text of what is going on in 2016. skmi recognize you are a big donald trump supporter but i think a lot of people who oppose donald trump particularly people of color who do not see what he s done before and after the election as reassuring that he s distancing himself from people like spencer. the reason why, whenever he s pressed on it he seems to grudgingly. and spencer is not alone. this is not one guy. but trump s response has not been normally we might expect a president or president elect say something like what s happening there is abhorrent and repulsive and i wish this guy would shut his mouth but donald trump s tendency is to it has to be dragged out of him. that is the point. he read it off the teleprompter and we all need paying way too much attention to these kind of things. that is the conundrum here though. jeffrey. do you pay attention to them and therefore shine the spotlight of awfulness or on it? do you ignore them with the potential that it festers and y grows? which is it? it is not going to fester and grow. we re paying attention but people of color who take a different there are no people of color in this country phillip. there are only americans and therein lies the problem. are you truly saying we need to divide people by race in this country. i think the people of the target have a very different perpetrative. what this guy is about expect things from the president. what this is about is identity politics which i have said repeatedly a is racist. and you have hillary clinton and others separating people by race and there is jeffrey, the reality is the following. you as a white american have had a very different experience in this country than me as a latina. i am sure people do not come up to you to say you should be deported. your children should be deported because they re anchor babies. they did to my other ancestors. this president has an obligation. the fact of the matter is he campaigned with a wink and a nudge to them because he never ever said and has yet to say your party [ inaudible ]. apologize for slavery yet. can we get on with this? he s yet to say in the international speech which is what he should do which is what a real leader would do or at least if a op ed to say definitively the white supremacists and everybody else who felt i was speaking to in the campaign is absolutely wrong. he should say it proactively and strongly ever moment he has the opportunity to do that. until he does that you will have latino, african american, muslims, everybody who felt degraded by his campaign. that don t want to view themselves as americans but want to divide themselves by color or race and it is wrong. i feel like i am as american as you jeffrey. exactly. that is the point. but i am not treated as ones by the people who feel emboldened by your president elect. but there are always people like this in american life. and there should be lead who are speak against it. and donald trump has not done us. he denounced david duke in 2000. during this campaign he did it begrurjingly after tour fiems. [indiscernible]. half the population. he was asked to say no to david duke. he refused until the fourth time he was asked to. he did it decades ago. although when is the last time hillary clinton denounced the ku klux klan in the last four hours? my point is we re playing a game here. this is not a game. it is not a dumb game. donald trump eats goal and his goal as it should be would be to be the president of the united states of america. half of the country didn t vote for him. a lot of people would point out he lost the popular vote as well. people of color a v a different perspective on the president elect than you and i do. yes they are americans as well. do you think ben carson has a different opinion because he s black? that is true. how about the majority of people of color. the president elect if he wants to stul lead a unified united states where everybody feels confident in the decisions he s making he needs to do better than what he s doing now. no question. and what he s done is ben carson is now going to be the secretary of housing and urban development. that is his nomination. he s putting ben carson in there. the things he s doing. the actions he s take i think you will see other names emerging. different cabinet subcabinet. that will be it will be diverse. look i m listening to this debate and i sort of agree with both sides. i agree with you that more needs to be done by the leaders of our country, including donald trump to speak out against this. to make a point that the leadership of this country does not stand or traffic in that stuff. i m not we should but donald trump is not a racist. we shouldn t create these characters of im. he s not a racist. in pursuit of the presidency he s probably trafficked in some of this stuff. but he s not a racist. and in that sense i think we all should right now take a deep breath and not give so much coverage to these nut cases are that sucking up so much nut kus cases. the president elect who gives any oxygen to racists is not something that people who are the target of the race s actions are going to be comfortable. al sharpton who s been in the obama white house according to your paper 72 times. hello. is that not trafficking to the racists. al sharpton is he s anti-semiite. we were talk about the president elect donald trump. that s ule. we were talk about the richard spencer. donald trump has just arrived here at this rally. he s going to be going on stage at the moment. donald trump is going to come out. going to speak and then he s going to introduce general jim mat i his nominee for secretary of defense. general mattis will speak for a few minutes we re not sure how long and actually that could be one of the the most interesting things of the night is lounge he speaks for. and then donald trump is going to speak to voters. thousands of them are there. people who vote forward donald trump to give him that resounding victory in north carolina. and general marks this is a crucial evening for donald trump because he s doing this thank you tour. all americans are going to be listening to him. this is the second one of these but the first one where he s appeared with someone else. and he s appearing with someone else who s seen as respected in a bipartisan manner. seen as a real leader among generals in the country. someone whose not controversial. which is significant. i think with president elect donald trump and jim mattis together on the stage they both will be able to bolster themselves in a very positive way by being in the presence of the other. mr. trump gets as much out of this as jim mattis does. this is not singularly a spotlight on jim mattis. this is an opportunity to put the president elect next to a highly regarded warrior that has done some immense heavy lifting for us in the course of an entire lifetime but most recently during these wars in iraq and afghanistan. and as we wait sunland is there. what is the mood like there? thousands of people there who are waiting to hang on he and general mattis s every word. that s right erin. well people are certainly anxious given this rally is starting over an hour late. but we do know the president elect has just arrived and he ll appear on stage with general mat n is in a few minutes. so the mood here is all the trap, of a campaign rally we would have seen during the campaign. you also have some homemade signs notable that we just saw one sign in the crowd that said expose the pizza gate scandal, that being a big story in washington d.c. this week about a washington pizzeria being the subject of many conspiracy theory, fake news stories. interesting that is trickling its way here into the trump rally. but people certainly anxious to hear him speak. we know this could turn into a pep rally of sorts for his nominee of secretary of defense jamie mattis appearing together on stage in a few minutes. and other thing i think you are going to have here is safe to assume. is we know trump will be taking a victory lap for saying he s got another 50,000 jobs on his tab. counting them up. carrier first and now this another 50,000. and let s wait to see if they actually arrive or not. and i m trying not to be cynical or skeptical nor expressing disbelief. i m merely saying realistically, where is this 50 billion coming from sno when is it goin to be invested and which jobs will be created. and donald trump has the political momentum. he understands the showmanship. you announce carrier and then the next thing. it is steady drum beat now. he s very good at getting attention on the things he would like to have attention on. and quite frankly the carrier issue in this prospect of having 50,000 more jobs that is something he deserves to get some attention on. these are the sorts of things a lot of voters were looking are when they vote forward donald trump. and the fact he s doing this a month after he won the election i think is sort of the impressive thing it is warranted for him to come out and talk about even though the jobs don t yet exist. and can e he take the spotlight away from general flynn? absolutely. thinks he can sail through controversy on general flynn s peddling fake news and then just move? he s a mars master of this. and tonight he deserves credit for what s doing. because by featuring general mattis it takes the spotlight off his other problems. and generally mattis is worthy of that kind of praise. bipartisan support. supports across the military. the military veterans community. has taken different positions from donald trump. and he s an impressive individualem and the fact he s giving him this kind of air time is something. and when you see general mattis come out and one would presume he s going to be very straight in terms of what he talked about. and then tonight donald trump take two. another opportunity to reach out for the people who did not vote for him. i do actually and i agree about what was said here about general mattis s background and service to the country. he s a kind of person i hope donald trump actually listens to, more than the others donald trump has around him. especially michael flynn. moving forward i think the question is what is he going to do with these folks? is he going to take their advice? and more importantly tonight we ve seen situations where you think the focus is going to be on, for example, tonight general mattis but that the focus becomes donald trump and the focus becomes something completely different than what it was supposed to be. so we ll see. if he doesn t cake the counsel and the input from these guys mar yarks they will be gone. they will walk. good. no no. these are some incredibly gifted focus. and zblern. your point. this is unusual in the sense. secretary of defense state and attorneys general are generally not taken out to political rallies of this nature. by doing it donald trump being introduced as you see waving to the crowd getting ready to walk out. as i said we anticipate he ll
up i wa rather lose than win the way you guys did. no, you wouldn t, respectfully. do you think i ran a campaign where white supremacists were you did. do you think you could have had a decent message for the white working class voters? do you think this woman who has nothing in common with i m not saying over 200 counties that president obama won and donald trump just won? let s get into it. you guys are pathetic, that s a great line. kel kellyanne conway accused the clinton supporters of being losers. i can tell you re angry, but wow. #he s your president, how is that. a hundred times on tv, they re all here, maybe a thousand times, will he accept the election results? will you? will you ever accept the election results? will you tell your protesters he s their president, too? i m joined by casey hunt and susan page, who were both there last night. and howard fein. the tenor of this thing, they usually sit around the swells from harvard and talk about the intellectual. this is raw, bitter, gut-fighting, gutter-fighting. usually this is polite. polite would be a word. it was not polite yesterday. the trump people were in the room because they wanted acknowledgement that they won this election. they didn t really get it beforehand, they didn t get any credit. if anything, came to gloat a little bit. the clinton people were just downtrodden. they were there to defend her honor. it was very clear that they all felt very emotionally invested and devastated. and were nots past the election. you could see the culture clash that was on display throughout the campaign. in stark display in that room. even in the panels that were focused on the republican primary, where you had people who worked for republican candidates who might have sat across the table from hillary clinton and had a discussion like we ve seen in past years. tough stuff. i imagine the people that lost felt bad. they didn t like david sitting there telling them he s an arch right guy. pretty nasty in politics. we all know that. they looked at him and said, you re the leader of our country? i can imagine what jennifer palmeri felt. they ve been civil. and it s not like they ve been friendly. this forum always takes place about three weeks after the election, when fumes are still pretty high. but the clinton people thought they were going to win. for them, they ve had three weeks and they ve not yet come to terms with it. and i think that s it. howard, it was too soon for an election which happened too quickly, the results came too quick for everybody. nobody knew what was going to happen. the trump people didn t know. nobody knew this was going to go the way it did. part of it is the shock of that defeat, as you say, that the clinton people haven t come to terms with. i ve been going to these things since 1984. and for their students. they re for history as well as the students. they re to lay down the first draft of history from the sources. and i was there when the whole lee atwater controversy, the campaign of 88, that was raw. and yet people i moderated that panel. yet the situation was civil. because there was a feeling in the room that, you know what, we re all in this together. this is one country. and as barack obama said somewhat naively on election night and soothingly, this was an intramural game. the attitude at this thing, from everything i ve seen, and the people i ve talked to on both sides, was unforgiving. it s like we re not even part of the same country. and we re and it s more like after a college football game, let s say between ohio state and michigan. they hated each other before the game, they played the game, and now they hate each other afterwards. and the lack of civility in the campaign is reflected in this. the clinton people believe fundamentally that trump is going to tear the country apart. like george h.w. bush taking over. on the topic of hillary clinton s e-mails, david bossy faulted the clinton team s approach. it gets rougher. they made a calculated mistake, if they had put out all of the e-mails that judicial watch and vice news and citizens united and others had demanded, and the request for the two years prior, two years prior to this campaign, they would have solved their own problem. but instead, they used the old clinton playbook from the 90s. they drip, drip, drip, held it all internally. it was a winning strategy, i guess. he said, why didn t you do the same thing on the tax returns? this is the weird thing about the thing. last night i thought that the trump people or hillary people accused the media not being for hillary. i m sorry, being tougher on her than trump. this is kind of odd. it was totally mixed up. i also think in the past, the media, i know, having been at a lot of these, is kind of a passive observer. we weren t the story in the past. but i gather here both at these events and at the dinner the night before, the media coverage, became one of the central issues of this whole debrief, which is fascinating. and there was no defenders of the media. no. the democrats thought that the press had been unfairly harsh on hillary clinton, and too soft on donald trump. and the trump people felt that the media never took trump seriously, didn t give him a fair shake, treated him in a dismissive way. the clinton people haven t come to terms with the loss. the trump people did not play the traditional role of gracious winners. neither of them had gotten off their campaign stances, even though the election is over. is this because these people, unlike well, we covered it for two or three years. they ve lived it in the bunker for two years. the people up in brooklyn, that s all their life is. and then they see a new life emerging which isn t the one they re in. all of a sudden there s a world where trump wins. they don t say suicide comes to people, not from horror stories in their life, but from something completely different than they ever expected was going to happen. they can t take it. it s almost like they can t take the reality of today. i guess i understand it. when i started covering hillary clinton s campaign six months ago, i was in brooklyn, and one thing i heard over and over again privately was, we feel an enormous weight to not screw this up. because if we screw up this campaign, then donald trump is going to be the president of the united states. and their view of that was, as you said, very different from what if it was jeb bush or marco rubio. the reality is, they re still sort much remembering this as a forum where what was going on in the campaign. do they have to blame themselves? you re right. it s a good freudian the trump and clinton aides also battled over the significance of trump s popular vote loss. that s an argument everyone s having right now. let s watch. i would say hillary did win the popular vote. we re talking about a majority no, no. just purely factual. oh, god, you guys. listen, you guys won. that s clear. you won the electoral cleng. be honest. don t act like you have a popular mandate for your message. this is just fighting words here. as you said, ohio state against michigan, they haven t changed. but to clinton s point of view, the clinton camp point of view, what s going to end up happening is the pre-election night polling which predicted that hillary would win by two or three points is true. because she didn t win in the right places. from the trump side, look, they were branded as illegitimate, that they didn t deserve to be in the race. that trump was something completely outside of politics. so they to continue the football analogy, they re spiking it in the end zone repeatedly because after having been told that they didn t know what they re doing, that they didn t deserve to be in politics, that they were unqualified and disruptive in a way we ve never seen in american politics before, they won. so what is kellyanne s answer to everything? we won. i love your analogy. in a separate panel at harvard also yesterday, trump s former campaign manager is back. had a message by the way, the guy that never got paid, he was there, too. we shouldn t have taken everything the candidate said so literally, he said. a new kind of journalism. don t listen to the words, think through what he really meant. let s watch. this is a problem with the media. you guys took everything donald trump said so literally. and the problem with that is the american people didn t. and they understood it. they understood that sometimes when you have a conversation with people, whether it s around the dinner table, or it s at the bar or wherever it is, you re going to say something, you don t have all the facts to back it up, but that s how the american people live. we have to be able to figure it out what the parable meant. if he said something like jesus in the bible, what he really meant was, he didn t mean this, he meant that. how do we report that? it s hard to report. and we need to take things literally, because when people are president, their words matter. but i actually think the analysis which i first saw in the article in the atlantic that voters took trump seriously but not literally. reporters took trump literally but not seriously. voters were less consumed when things were demonstrably untrue than he said obama wasn t really an american citizen. he s basically an illegal alien here as an imposter. how do we translate that to what he really meant. we re supposed to say, that s not true. but we re also supposed to understand how it s resonating with some voters. what is the message he s saying we should report on? the message that we should report on is there continues to be an effort by people who are so opposed to president obama they re willing to peddle a discredited theory. the problem with that is it allows trump to have it both ways. the guy on the bar stool, i m going to get off the jesus and compare him with the guy on the bar stool. the guy on the bar stool claiming that s going to be that guy s going to be president. no, don t pay any attention to that guy. pay attention to the guy that has the action plan. when trump says he has an action plan to make america great again that he just said in cincinnati, does he mean it? does he mean it? he didn t really mean rapist, what is the interpretation, we re at the u.n., we ve got it translated the real story here is people are going to go for trump as an instrument to bash the establishment. i agree with that. no matter what he says. i agree with that. you with are there every day. in the panel that he made the comments in, one of the republicans ho lost to trump said, look, americans, they didn t care what your policy was. to fix anything or do anything. they wanted to burn the house down and figure out what to do with the ashes afterwards. who said that? sarah huckabee. another quote i thought was great from david kochel of the bush campaign, it was like god zil la walking into the plant and touching the first rail and second rail and i love the metaphors. but jesus and godzilla, the bar stool is a smart one. coming up, trump s victory rally last night in cincinnati was a sign of things to come for the next four years. he spent the night blasting the media, of course, as a way of preemptively discrediting any sort of coverage of his presidency, calling riding the rep. back to that hot fight between the campaign staffs of both donald trump and hillary clinton. the battle of the bands are calling it the hardball round table with more on that, why things got so raw last night. it s clear during this transition that trump is relishing the theatrical as specks of the job. actor tim daly is here with us tonight to talk about the presidency and age of reality tv. let me finish with trump watch. tonight, december 2nd, this is hardball, the place for politics. on average, the economy has added about 180,000 jobs each month this year. style lets you stand out from the herd. what s inside sets you apart. the cadillac escalade. enjoy our best offers of the year. what s going on? oh hey! that s it? yeah. everybody two seconds! dear sebastian, after careful consideration of your application, it is with great pleasure that we offer our congratulations on your acceptance. through the tuition assistance program, every day mcdonald s helps more people go to college. it s part of our commitment to being america s best first job. these are very, very dishonest people. welcome back to hardball. that was, of course, donald trump last night attacking the media at his thank you rally in ohio. no thank you to the media. it s been nearly a month since he won the presidency. trump has continued to rail against the mainstream media for wrongly predicting the outcome of the election. trump s number one message is, i told you so. here s what the president-elect had to say last night. how about i mean, how dishonest how about when a major anchor who hosted a debate started crying when she realized that we won. how about that. [ cheers and applause ] tears. don t tell me this is true. think of it, we won in a landslide. that was a landslide. and we didn t have the press. the press was brutal. remember, you cannot get to 270. dishonest press. and that person is doing the math. and that person was saying for months that there s no way that donald trump can break the blue wall, right? we didn t break it, we shattered that sucker. when in fact trump s continuing the rhetoric of the campaign. now it appears his attacks are a prebuttal against the media for his incoming amrgs s press. the kind of press it s going to get. i m joined by david and al, former chairman of the republican party down in florida. al, it seems to me, it s called riding the ref. whatever you hear from the new york times, which he maybe fairly despises, would like to see go out of business, whatever you read from there, don t believe it, because they re out there to crap all over me. a few conclusions, right? healing the country is not yet a top priority in that administration. and two, this is it. i mean, he wants to make sure that he can talk to the populous crowd in his language, this rally stuff is his elixir, his addiction. i think you ll see more of it. you ll see constantly these rallies to feed the needs he may have. but the optimist in me says, as long as they can govern with the right people in place, i ll live with the aggravation of populous aspects of it. but it won t heal the country. the country needs more than that. he has no interest in healing the country. he came to prominence pushing a racist conspiracy theory. he ran a campaign of mysogyny, bigotry, and he will gorch, or rule as president in the same way. he according to every fact checker lied so much more than any other politician. he broke the record of all politicians for telling lies. so he doesn t want the media to pay attention to him. he wants to keep, you know, dismissing it which is a play out of the conservative playbook. is he trying to destroy the fact checking? he would like to see no-print newspaper. sure. the newspapers sheldon you re just making a joke. no, that was you will you will find out that he believed he got his message out in the digital media world. and he believes that you and the traditional mainstream media are a nuisance. but he doesn t need you. if he discredits you, he believes he has this other outlet that got him to the presidency. i think at some point in time this live coverage of his rally helped him a hell of a lot. the live coverage, unfiltered, and often unevaluated. particularly in the first few months of his campaign. things that other republicans are shouting at jeff zucker about at the event in harvard last night. he doesn t want to be called on the fact that he doesn t care about that. he said he won in a landslide. what does he mean? no, if you look at the list of i think it s like i m not a media critic. at fox they say things we re fair and balanced. everybody knows that s not what they mean, they mean we balance out the liberal media. i get defenders, not a dog whistle, you know what they re really saying. trump talks in this language of, screw you, language. no, but they re going to share that. they think they won in a landslide? i think some of them do. oh, come on. hey, you can say i won 30 states and more. here s your case study, chris. the other day he said millions of people voted illegally in the race. now, that s not true. his campaign cited studies that didn t say that. the people who wrote the studies. and then on cnn yesterday, had this wonderful video, i hate to tout a competitor, in which one of the reporters talked to the trump supporters and said, yes, of course he s right. if there were 3 million illegal, i assume hispanic voters that voted in california, for hillary, why didn t they vote for loretta sanchez? why didn t she roll it up? she lost. there weren t 3 million illegal people but you this gets back to your question. he said it. his people believe him. despite any evidence, they even say we heard it reported on cnn, when it wasn t reported. this is a big challenge for the media. his biggest problem is three-fold. one, he s got a shrinking base if he keeps this up. and that s not good for the party. older whites. number two, he s appointed 80% of his appointments so far have been pretty reasonable people. he s going to get closed in with his own cabinet into being a straighter shooter. or else he can t keep these good people. do you think they re not going to put up with things that are not appropriate. he s going to get closed in by good people. and number three, there s going to be a lot of pressure out there for people seeking reelection, seeking governorships and senate races, and that s going to have another you re not donald trump. and you never will be. that s a compliment. president-elect trump is signaling he ll continue to use this rhetoric once he s in the white house. here s a look at the way he slammed the press during the campaign. the biggest rigger of the system is the media. the media is rigged. they re bad people. they re bad people. and they re dishonest people. they don t tell the truth. they don t write the truth. i love it! we just took the press credentials away from the dishonest washington post. crooked cnn. cnn is so disgusting. cnn. we have a newspaper that s failing badly. it s losing a lot of money. it s going to be out of business very soon. the new york times. okay? every story they write is a hit job. it is a failing newspaper. third rate people. i m telling you, third rate people. bad people. sick people. you know what you have to do with the media? you have to bowl your way through it. there he is describing his approach. you ve got to david, what does he mean by that, i m going to bull my way through it? you know, donald trump knows no shame. a person who knows no shame is a dangerous person. because if you report these that he s lied and made a mistake or doesn t know what he s talking about, it doesn t harm him. he just says, your s wrong and he feels that the new york times is sick. the new york times quoigs may be wrong, but they re not sick people. we know people who work at the new york times. he knows better, too. but he uses his demagoguic language. it goes to turn his base his predicate is to discredit the press because he knows that he s going to have an ongoing contentious environment. that s all it is. so he s don t trust the referees. that s right. this is rigged. in other words, his presidency is going to be rigged. no matter what it says in the paper. but i think he especially hates the print newspaper. not a single newspaper endorsed him. i m not heard of a single presidential candidate that no one endorsed him. not enough reporting came from the investigative reporters at a couple of newspapers. that s kind of what he doesn t like. he s going to have to contend with facts. the next day after he talks, somebody s going to correct him. after the million times on the campaign the truth will set you free. i hope that s true. al, sir, thank you for coming on. david. to the big story tonight, the battle of the bands. the red-hot fight last night between the aides for clinton and trump and the campaign managers. the campaign may be over but there s a lot of anger and bitterness. it s real and it hurts. this is hardball, the place for politics. the holidays should bring joy. so why are you still putting up with complicated cash back cards? some cards limit where you earn bonus cash back to places they choose. then they change those places every few months. quicksilver keeps it simple. with quicksilver you always earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase, everywhere. tis the season for simple. what s in your wallet? g new cars. you re smart. you already knew that. but it s also great for finding the perfect used car. you ll see what a fair price is, and you can connect with a truecar certified dealer. now you re even smarter. this is truecar. if you then you ll know howuth, uncomfortable it can be. but did you know that the lack of saliva can also lead to tooth decay and bad breath? well, there is biotene, specially formulated with moisturizers and lubricants. biotene can provide soothing relief and it helps keep your mouth healthy too. biotene, for people who suffer from a dry mouth. welcome back to hardball. last night s kennedy school of government usually a civilized postmortem on the election. last night was a bruising blood bath fueled by acrimony and ang ever. at best spraining, at worst cringeworthy. for more i m joined by our panel tonight, political correspondent for the washington post. and eli is national political reporter for politico. karen, your strongest memory of last night. you were there. i was there. as it so happens, i was seated facing the whole clinton team. and the trump people having their backs to me. and their faces had the exacts same expression every one of them. it was anguish, it was shock. as they looked at the trump people, it was contempt. and you sort of saw them working through all those emotions. interestingly enough, the person who was able to take the most clinical look at it was the clinton campaign manager. one of the things that was really overlooked was his description of precisely what went wrong for them in those last few days. how they needed to get over 60% among young people. they only got in the high 50s. he said as a result they lost. he said in the last three days the undecideds completely broke for trump. in part, because of the first comey letter which resurrected the doubts people had about hillary clinton, and the second comey letter which really energized the trump voters. there were a lot of things that happened at the very end. i agree. that s why trump dumps all over the polling. he was surprised what happened last weekend. go ahead. what i found really fascinating about the discussion was he said that they seemed to misread the polls almost. that they recognize that it was a changed election. but what he rode in on was the risky bet. donald trump is a risky bet. they thought if they could convince voters that he would be too risky, that they wouldn t vote for that change. and it ended up being a very big mistake. why do you think he made the mistake? what was right that he had wrong? did he miss the fact that he cared so much about as kellyanne conway saw it, they ran into it that voters thought hillary clinton was completely untrustworthy, and that was more important to voters. and that seems to be and the rust belt. i think what was amazing is the smugness and sanctimony you felt from the trump people. they had all been through the trenches. but after an election, they can kind of put themselves in the loser s shoes and say, this is really hard. not going to rub salt in your wounds. you saw a lot of that last night. in terms of gloating, and taunting. especially for a campaign, even if the clinton people could feel the ground shifting over the last week of the election. i don t think the trump people thought confidently they had it in the back. they didn t act surprised last night. they acted like they knew it all along. they didn t know they were going to win. i m saying, the amount of celebration and self-satisfaction was really remarkable. we won in the ninth round or tenth inning or whatever. the pitterness, that s our politics now. during the event, the manager of the clinton campaign criticized the media for its coverage of secretary clinton. there was a sense that hillary was likely to win this election. and i think as a result of that, a lot of the treatment and the reporting was such that if there was something suspicious on the trump side, it would largely go uncovered. but if there was even the slightest suspicions on hillary side, it would be blown up quite a bit. there was something that everybody agreed on. which is that they all thought the media had been unfair to their candidate. they were unanimous on this. basically, robby made the point that, for instance, he did not believe that the question of trump not producing his tax returns was prosecuted as vigorously in the media as hillary clinton s e-mails. but to hear it then from kellyanne conway s point of view, she said i had that vomited at me on television every single nights. i think we probably as the media gave up on the tax return thing at some point. we were just tired of saying it. theers mail thing got reignited by james comey, two announce ms neared the end. this case is still alive. well, exactly. then donald trump was on stage bringing it up constantly about her deleted e-mails. so that was the reason that it continued to stay in the can anybody here help me with this, to get the last comment on this campaign? who was so evil? explain worst case scenario about the e-mail story. what does it say about hillary clinton as a disqualifying factor of her candidacy? trump always paints with a broad brush. there was about portraying her as someone who is not truthful, who is careless, who had something to hide. that s it. it was a big broad brush theme. lock her up chapters, everything else. it was all about, you can t trust her. maybe she did something illegal. if we re supposed to take him literally that s what he was saying. the big picture was, she s not trustworthy. from a guy who didn t tell the truth for the kids, great grandkids, how do you explain to hillary how she messed it up? it s almost like whitewater, it ends up being nothing. these clinton stories are faux scandals. not quite scandals. well, the fact is, jennifer palmeri was very emotional to the point of tears almost saying, she thought they made a mistake by legitimizing this as an avenue of inquiry. that is the one thing she would go back and do over again. i think it spoke to, this feeling people already had about hillary clinton. they just looked for a hook. but when she said i think palmeri is a real pro. why did she say last night the mediaecretly didn t like her candate, or hillary bias? i don t see that. of course, donald trump saying the whole entire time i understand that. because he s an outsider. where is the secret anti-hillary hostility? it seems to be based on what they were saying they didn t think the moo ed yeah did a good enough job of holding donald trump accountable for a lot of the things that i think with etalked about it a hundred times here. we talked about that quite frequently as well. anyway, i still have skepticism whether, where is the their in the e-mails. she didn t want everybody to know about their campaign business, and she had all that business to do politically. it s not evil. it s political business. she just didn t want it out. why didn t she just say that. it was political business i wanted to keep to myself. she didn t have trump s ability to create your own reality. hammer in the narrative. and whether it s true or not anyway, the round table is sticking with us. i m learning a lot already. you re watching hardball, the place for politics. tell your doctor about your medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, or adempas® for pulmonary hypertension, as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess. to avoid long-term injury, get medical help right away for an erection lasting more than four hours. if you have a sudden decrease or loss of hearing or vision, or an allergic reaction, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. ask your doctor about cialis. i am a first responder tor and i emergencies 24 hours a day, everyday of the year. my children and my family are on my mind when i m working all the time. my neighbors are here, my friends and family live here, so it s important for me to respond as quickly as possible and get the power back on. it s an amazing feeling turning those lights back on. be informed about outages in your area. sign up for outage alerts at pge.com/outagealerts. together, we re building a better california. it s just that i don t want hillary. barack obama will be giving a big counterterrorism speech at mcdill. this will not be the final policy speech necessarily of his presidency. and it might not be the final domestic trip we ll see him take. but the white house is saying, it will be a final opportunity for him to explain why he took the strategy they did. i ve got to get an interview with him. we only have a little time left. the rally that trump did in ohio last night, that he s going to be doing more next week, a victory tour. because maybe all these conflicts of interest around his presidency, we ve been getting questions for who s paying for these rallies. we found out from sources that they thought about, and trump said let s use transition money for it. after deliberation, they decided, no, we don t want any confusion, gray areas. they are using presidential campaign money left over for the rally last night and the rally the engine is still running. thank you. when we come back, the reality show president, actor tim daly is with us for the performance art. this is hardball, the place for politics. lp you take on a n, or fill a big order or expand your office and take on whatever comes next. find out how american express cards and services can help prepare you for growth at open.com. gaviscon is a proven heartburn remedy find out how american express cards and services that gives you fast-acting, long-lasting relief. it immediately neutralizes acid and only gaviscon helps keep acid down for hours. for fast-acting, long-lasting relief, try doctor-recommended gaviscon. they are the natural borns enemy of the way things are. yes, ideas are scary, and messy and fragile. but under the proper care, they become something beautiful. yoin me for a special hour of news at 6:00 eastern. news and headlines from around the country. then at 7:00 eastern, you want to stay tuned for the big hour of hardball with all the fire and heat from the day in politics. next week. (toilet flush) if you need an opioid to manage your chronic pain, you may be sooo constipated it feels like everyone can go .except you. tried many things? still struggling to find relief? you may have opioid-induced constipation, oic. it s different and may need a different approach. opioids block pain signals, but can also block activity in the bowel. which is why it can feel like your opioid pain med is slowing your insides to a crawl. longing for a change? have the conversation with your doctor about oic, and ask about prescription treatment options. made on behalf of those living with chronic pain and struggling with oic. and polls have officially opened. what is shaping up to be one of the most dramatic american elections in recent memory. for the first time in nearly 200 years, we may be looking at a deadlock in the electoral college for president. i told you, he s not going to lose. he s going to win. today. he s totally going to win in the house of representatives in a couple of months. which makes no sense. it s tricky. but evans has alienated a lot of people in his own party. we re back. that was a scene from cbs s madam secretary, currently in the third successful season. the real-life madam secretary hillary clinton is a huge fan we re told. the lead actor in the program, tim daly, knows a lot about political drama. come january 20th, donald trump will make history himself becoming the first reality tv star to be elected president. just because he s in the white house doesn t mean he will give up on dramatics. this is trump last night. we did have a lot of fun fighting hillary, didn t we? right? we will have two simple rules when it comes [ booing snflt [ . they don t know that hillary lost a couple of weeks ago. they forgot. joining me now is tim daly. thank you for coming on. thanks for having me, chris. i wonder what it was like shooting your latest episodes during november, as in realtime, and it was realtime for you as well-being an american to shoot scenes from a dramatic series about a secretary of state as a woman, a smart woman, and at the same time maybe model it after hillary at the time the campaign came down to a conclusion which we never expected. well, it was, you know, very interesting, for a lot of people very difficult. i think it was no secret i was a supporter of hillary. and i hillary and i worked for her. little did we know when we were making this political show that our actual political situation in this country would be more dramatic and maybe more farfetched than anything we do on tv. that s the truth. i m wondering. this is still concerning to me, because i still get up in the morning and i go, clinton lost. i don t know whether that s more powerful in my head or trump won is still powerful in my head. i had these competing realities. i have a very recent memory of people figuring out, who s going to be ambassador to paris, who s going to be secretary of state in and now all those jobs are in the hands of donald trump. that experience, that reality isn t true any more. there s an enormous shift in the country, and i think that, you know, it s something that we re going to have to come to grips with. and, you know, as an artist and president of the creative coalition, i think now is the time for artists to really get busy. there s two things we do really well. one is, we cause trouble, we stir up controversy, the other is, we create a lot of empathy. it s time for us to get busy as writers and actors and musicians and reflect back to us, who we actually are as a society. so that we can come to grips with this, and figure out how we re going to move forward. do you believe. this is a loaded question, which you might expect from me, tim. when you see those last minute rallies. springsteen is different, he appeals to working people, allentown, youngstown. bon jovi gets on. anybody hillary clinton hangs do you get a sense when they get together with hillary clinton, in the campaign, that sent a message of inclusiveness? or does it send the message of, we re the winning circle here, you re not in it. i wonder if it doesn t hurt that too much celebrity around you, when you re running for president of the united states. i don t know if it s true, i have a hunch it is true. i don t know, i remember eight years ago, there was a big ji among the republicans that barack obama was just a celebrity, and he had all these celebrity friends. meanwhile, the republicans elected arnold schwarzenegger, sonny bono, clint eastwood and ronald reagan who were all celebrities themselves. they were the people that elected celebrities. we have another election of a celebrity now much i dosht really know. what i do know, is that a lot of artists, bruce springsteen included, myself included, come from a place that is not exhausted. you know, people most people i know aren t born into a successful career as an actor or singer. they come from some place more humble, and they have a success story. much like hillary clinton. and i think it s interesting and ironic, that a billionaire who is born with a silver spoon in his mouth, in the city, managed to somehow connect with the rust belt of this country, people who bear a lot more in common with hillary than donald trump. how did he do it? i really don t know. i think that maybe he you know, he made look, i think that there are a lot of people in the rust belt and in the middle of this country who are left out, and feel it, and want to be seen and heard. and somehow he managed to make them feel scene. and apparently the other party did not. so how does the democratic party you re a political guy. how does the democratic party get back to bobby kennedy, you have a candidate that appeals to the working class and also the african-americans and mexican americans. he was able to do that. how can you do that again? democrats can t do that any more. why not? what are they going to do to fix that problem? i don t know, but i think they have to start by talking to everybody. and making sure that, you know, that when we re talking about as democrats, we re talking about being inclusive, that we re inincluding those people that we seem to have left behind. or to ignore for some reason. everybody, if we re going to talk about being inclusive, we have to make sure we include everybody. a friend of mine used to say, people don t mind being used, they mind being discarded. i think we have to think about that politically. it s serious business. tim, it s great to have you on, big fan. thanks. let me finish with what happened between the trump team and the clinton team. it was something. says it won t let up for a while. the cadillac xt5. what should we do? .tailored to you. wait it out. equipped with apple carplay compatibility. now during season s best, get this low mileage lease on this cadillac xt5 from around $429 per month, or purchase with 0% apr financing. what s going on? oh hey! that s it? yeah. everybody two seconds! dear sebastian, after careful consideration of your application, it is with great pleasure that we offer our congratulations on your acceptance. through the tuition assistance program, every day mcdonald s helps more people go to college. it s part of our commitment to being america s best first job. as soon as i became a parent i changed as a person, drastically. i tried hard to quit smoking. but when we brought our daughter home that was it. now i have nicoderm cq. the nicoderm cq patch with unique extended release technology helps prevent your urge to smoke all day. it s the best thing that ever happened to me. can you say thanks nicoderm cq? every great why needs a great how. the john f. kennedy institute of politics which hosted the forum last night, featuring the trump and hillary clinton campaign managers is usually a more convivial affair. the campaign didn t turn out the way it was supposed to. nobody had reason to believe trump was going to win. not even the top trump people believed he was going to breakthrough the firewall and grab pennsylvania, wisconsin and then michigan, which by then they didn t need. it takes time to realize the world you imagined isn t the world you re leaving in. feelings are raw, for minorities who hated what they heard trump say on his way to winning the election. to women who feel he got away with words that should never be spoken. i can live with a little bitterness after all that, i m glad to live in a country that
unfairly. what is wrong with having an overzealous watch dog committee? and isn t getting rid of this office the kind of swampy stuff that republicans across america elected donald trump to get rid of? they re bringing anonymous charges and trying them in a public arena. a person targeted by that has to defend themselves after they ve been attacked publicly when they don t have a right to face their accuser. that s a right that goes right back to jesus himself standing before the high priest. i m going to read it off the screen here, with all that congress has to work on, do they really have to make the weakening of the independent ethics watchdog as unfair as it is? so the president-elect appears to be making the argument that you guys have a lot of other things on their plate. why make this the first move in secret the way it went down last night? i would have been happy to bring that to the floor and let democrats vote on that independently. i think you would have seen strong support among the congressional black caucus, in particular. so they brought this amendment to the rules package last night in the organizing conference, it s the appropriate way to do that but i would have preferred to bring that in the open. you would have prepared to have not voted last night and done it today? if it had not been brought up last night, it could have been brought as an amendment to the rule today and then there would have been a recorded vote on this. i think what would have been better. but we don t know whether all the democrats would have then locked up and said we are going to make republicans do this. i spoke with ethics lawyers on both sides of the aisle, that served under george w. burke and president obama. uniformly there is a sense that this is the foxes guarding the hen house. how do you reassure americans who have serious concern about congressional scandals and rightfully so, that there will be some sort of oversight when it sort of them taking your word for it, is it not? we ve always had oversight in congress. it s always been the ethics commite that s balanced. i would assure constituents that if you have a complaint, have an objection, take it to your member of congress. if your objection is about your member of congress, take it to another member of congress. or you can file a public complaint with the office of congressional ethics but you can t hide behind you can t do it anonymously. and then the ethics committee will be doing oversight of the office of congressional ethics so they re folded in together and there are just some rules that take away the things they were doing that are unethical. it unethical to leak confidential information to the public. even having this conversation and you making this argument and defending the moves that you made, do you worry it going to make congress sound frankly a little bit tone deaf as they re kicking off this new session when what you want to focus on is not the question of ethics concerns but other issues? that s true. i m worried about that. you worry about feeling tone deaf here. and that was a significant debate in the closed door session last night people are saying we don t need to take on this debate because we have important work to do. but the bottom line is what s going on is unjust, members have been unjustly targeted, has cost them individually millions to defend themselves against anonymous charges. no citizens would be subject to that outside the walls of congress. anybody want to bring a charge to me, put it in an operation that operates secretly and leaks out information and defend yourself from that. let s pull up the second part of the president-elect s tweet. do they really have to make it as unfair as it may be their number one act and priority. focus on tax reform, health care and so many other things of far greater importance. why bother? donald trump is an excellent businessman, and he takes the issues as they come. you don t get to y, well, we re going to pick this up later, six months or a year from now and deal with it. this is the time we right the rules for the congress, a two-period of time. it would be inappropriate to say we re going to write the rules at the end of the session and not the beginning of the session. they ve spent millions of dollars, there s no positive oufrom the office of political ethics. they re in the business of destroying people s reputation and by acting on anonymous complaints, many of them, if not all of them, motivated politically. i want to ask you, speaking of tweets, one of your tweets from about 24 hours ago. you said russian hackers controlling our election? we know this because the cia and nsa leaked it, right? what does that mean? well, it s a little bit of a quotes in there, we know this because we re assuming as a society, i can see the narrative building do you doubt the cia and nsa? i doubt the reports i m getting. the intelligence reports that you are getting you don t buy? i doubt the cia and the nsa. i will say that straight out because i sat a number of reasons. one is i sat in the briefings in 2003 that laid out the case for weapons of mass destruction. i saw more evidence of weapons of mass destruction in iraq than i have seen evidence that the russians hacked this as point one. and point number two, the director of national intelligence, james clapper, was sitting next to hillary clinton when she informed congress in a classified setting the same stories that we heard from susan rice about it was a video that began benghazi. so pardon me if i m a little skeptical here but i say show me the evidence. but you are privy to the evidence that frankly me and the rest of the american public are not privy to. at this point i have not had an opportunity to sit in on a classified briefing but i would still be skeptical unless they showed me the hard evidence because this has all of the trappings to me of a narrative that s being created here and nobody s looking at the real evidence. they re just looking at opinions on evidence. so i want to see the evidence and then i want to challenge them on their train of thought. but it looks to me like this was not a hack, it s more likely a leak. and if it s a leak, where did it come from? the russians wouldn t have anything to leak if they hadn t hand. if there s no hack, the leaks are more likely to have come out of the cia or nsa or other intelligence committee. and if you do not trust american intelligence assessments and american intelligence agencies, how are the american people supposed to trust them and by extension the rest of government? i would say since i ve just described clapper and hillary clinton where they were as pu purveyors of the message they re the same people. this administration is still commanded by barack obama. so i am skeptical. if this is going to be brought up, this topic, it should be brought up in the next administration with fresh faces that at least start with the presumption that they re honorable. if they say it was the video that started benghazi, then i ll say we have more to discuss. i appreciate you doing this on the first day of the new congress. coming up, the president-elect hitting everything from congress s move on that office of congressional investigations and ethics to the affordable care act to even one of the icons of the american car industry. we ve got kristen welker in new york outside trump tower. you heard a bit of our conversation with congressman king on the affordable care act on the president-elect s new tweets as well. i want to sort of start there. what is your we heard kellyanne conway morning say president-elect trump would weigh in on this ethics move by congress if he felt the urge to. clearly he has felt the urge to, right? reporter: right. and i thought your point was the right one, halle. he s underscoring why is ts the first move that we re seeing from house republicans? significant that he is taking issue with the fact that they ve made this their top priority. at the same time, he sort of walked a fine line in that tweet saying that he agrees with part of what congressman steve king was saying, which is that it isn t as effective as it could be. nonetheless, you heard him stress there, health care, tax reform, those are the issues that he wants to be focused on and, halle, he s tweeting today about obama care. let me read you his tweet. he tweeted people must remember that obama care just doesn t work and it s not affordable. 116% increases(arizona), bill clinton called it crazy. on the campaign trail former president bill clinton did call it crazy the fact that you re seeing some of the prices skyrocket, but he later walked back those comments stressing that he thinks there s a lot of good to be salvaged in the affordable care act. bottom line, donald trump is going to push republicans hard to appeal obama care. then the question comes what do you replace it with? kellyanne conway acknowledging at this point in time there is no real replacement. it could tack several years before they have a full replacement in place. the fight over obama care will likely be one of the first big battles of this new year and this new congressional session. we were just talking with congressman king about the russian interference in the u.s. election according to u.s. intelligence assessments. the congressman has his own views on that. when it comes to donald trump, when is he going to get this intel briefing? do we have any better guidance he said he was looking to? any new word on this press conference he has promised sometimes in the next 17 days? first to the intel briefing. our sense is that it is going to happen at some point this week. kellyanne cl kellyanne conway said a little bit later on this week so possibly tomorrow. that may be when we learn a little bit more about what donald trump says he knows about those accusations of russian hacking. he says over the weekend that he has information that other people don t have. what specifically is that information? that s the key question that everyone is waiting to have answered. what we do know, halle, is that this is creating a real rift between the president-elect and some members of his own party, the more hawkish members of his party, senators john mccain and lindsay graham, senator mccain set to hold a hearing on thursday about the russian hacking. he has been very insistent. he believes the u.s. intelligence and he is supportive of potentially moving to enact stiffer sanctions against russia. as for that press conference, we re hearing it could happen as early as next week, possibly on the 11th. that would of course be the day after president obama delivers his farewell address, but we want to stress, halle, they haven t nailed down an exact date yet. we re trying to get specific details on that before the end of the day as the president-elect holds more meetings here at trump tower today, halle. kristen, thank you. video now released of the turkey night club attack suspect on the run. police out with new evidence say confirms they re hunting for the right man. we re heading live to istanbul next. e. liberty did what? 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they have fingerprints, they have a very good description and they have all of this video that we ve been seeing sort of come out in bits over the past couple of days, security camera, screen grabs, that selfie video, which you just mentioned, which is probably the clearest picture yet of the man please believe is the suspect in all this. and also this video, which has just come out recently, of a man exiting a taxi. apparently this man was getting out of the taxi after the shooting, in the hours after the shooting. police believe this is another picture of their suspect. but do they have a name yet? well, we don t know quite frankly. they haven t come forward with a name. there s been a lot of speculation in the local media, a lot of talk about where this alleged gunman might be from but no concrete information yet from the government or security services and no new press conferences today, halle. what we do know is thathey are they have all of the borders on lookout for this particular person, including the airport, border patrol, et cetera. so they ve cast the net but in terms of real concrete information, we re just not hearing anything, halle. and the hope of course is that will change later in the day. thank you. i want to bring in a former army intelligence officers and research director for the study of war. jessi jessica, walk us through this. why has it been so difficult for turkish officials to find this guy? because the isis network is so expansive and turkey is engaged on multiple front, fighting their own war againin turkey. they have released more videos, more pictures of the suspect. i assume that means they re on the right track? yes, i suspect they will be successful in this manhunt. this is a lot of good press that isis is leveraging as well. isis is fighting not only through violence but through media. you mentioned idea is getting what you called good press, tongue in cheek, how do intelligence officials go back to look to see if isis really is linked to this, if isis did direct or orchestrate this in. this challenge is key to i isis s strategies to its attack. it has an appeal broadly for those willing to conduct attacks as individuals. that is a much harder attac footprint to interdict. isis is doinghat deliberately. since sunday, turkey has pounded some hundred targets inside syria. do you see this attack leading to more serious attacks against isis? the challenge i see is turkey s mechanism for attacking isis inside sear were is to align more closely with al qaeda groups in syria. so really for the purposes of the united states and national security, isis and al qaeda really are equivalent. so turkey is attacking isis but they are not necessarily countering terrorism. jessica, i appreciate your perspective. a terrifying night in the south. tornadoes turning deadly. we ll have the latest on the high winds, the hail, the floods, that has folks from texas to florida trying to clean up. stay with us. will your business be ready when growth presents itself? 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(vo) try new beneful healthy weight with chicken. now with real chicken as the number one ingredient. of killing nine black church-goers last year. deadly storms sweeping through the south. at least a dozen tornadoes touched down as the storm system moved through yesterday. a single tornado now being blamed for killing four people in alabama. bad thunderstorms are also leaving a trail of destruction all across the southeast. we started to run for cover in the back of the shop and before we could get back there, the window came in and we seen the awning flip up. the weather channel s mike seidel is in rehoboth, arizona. how common is it to see tornadoes in january? good morning, halle. tornadoes are unusual in january, especially an outbreak. yesterday reported 12 twisters touching down across the deep south, one of those hitting here and going towards the woods. there is a mobile home back there and a six foot in diameter oak tree came down over the mobile home and split it in two. there were seven in the mobile home and four were killed. that would make it the deadliest tornado in the u.s. since december 26, 2016 if the weather service from tallahassee ces out and determine this is a twister. already out here on the kelly farm, they re trying to do some basic clean-up. you can see the corrugated aluminum the roof has been ripped to sheds. j.p. on the tractor told me the storm was loud out here. a county that has only had three twitters since 1970. the air mass is stable today. we ll see temperatures backing off to the 50s with rain arriving here by friday. mike seidel in alabama for us. to scary video now that shows something every parent worries about. utah twins caught on a nanny cam doing, look at this, what 2-year-old boys do, right, climbing on furniture. the dresser come down right on top of them. that is really tough to watch. one of the twins was luckily able to get himself out. the little boy working and ultimately able to help his brother. the boy s mother posted this really scary video to show the dangers of what happens when furniture is left loose like that. she is going to be talking to my colleague in the next hour about this terrifying experience. both of those boys doing just fine. also ahead, chaos at customs. a technical glitch leaves travelers lined up across the country on one of the biest travel days of the year. we ll have anupdate of where you ll still find backups this morning. stick with us. tech: this mom didn t have time to worry about a cracked windshield. so she scheduled at safelite.com and with safelite s exclusive on my way text she knew exactly when i d be there, so she didn t miss a single shot. i replaced her windshield giving her more time for what matters most. tech: how d ya do? player: we won! tech: nice! that s another safelite advantage. mom: thank you so much! 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absolutely. much better. it s now working as it s supposed to. you got about 8,000 passengers here and thousands more at many other airports, international airports like newark,j.f.k., boston where passeers arrived and found themselves just dealing with a real nightmare and the nightmare sort of continues today because a lot of people when they come into like miami international airport, they re making a connection. because of those delays, they did not make connections and so they re nour trickling through the system to try to get through. the customs and border protection has an interesting term for the glitch that happened with their computers, they call it a technology disruption. it s a disruption they say they ve cleared up. they did fall back to alternate systems but those were very slow and that s why people missed their flights. as we take a look now at what that means for folks trying to make connections, that means let s look at the misery map. when you look at the misery map, you can see there are folks here now waiting to get flights and those flights in places like chicago and atlanta are delayed. we have 339 delays, 18 flights that have just outright been cancelled. those are for other issues. if you re a passenger making one of these long connections, it s miserable. hall e? kerry standers keeping an eye on it for all of us. coming up, the top priority list for the republicans in congress, get rid of the president s signature health care law and then put in something else, right? but what is that something else? we re going to talk about it with the 115th congress getting sworn in in less than 90 minutes. we are live on capitol hill. stay with us. anything else to talk about. but then i realized there was. so, i finally broke the silence with my doctor about what i was experiencing. he said humira is for people like me who have tried other medications but still experience the symptoms of moderate to severe crohn s disease. in clinical studies, the majority of patients on humira saw significant symptom relief. and many achieved remission. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you ve been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you ve had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don t start humira if you have an infection. if you re still just managing your symptoms, talk with your gastroenterologist about humira. with humira, remission is possible. and i thought, well, you need to go to the doctor. i was told that is was cancer, and i called cancer trereatment centers of america. dr. nader explained that they can pinpoint the treatment. once we identified that there was this genetic abnormality in her tumor, we were able to place her on very specific therapy. our individualized care model gives each lung patient specific treatment options with innovative procedures that are changing the way we fight lung cancer. we have excellent technology that allow us to perform very specialized procedures for patients who have lung disease. to learn more about these targeted therapies and advanced procedures for lung cancer, as well as the experienced physicians who deliver them, go to cancercenter.com when he showed me the cat scans, i was so amazed. with this treatment, she had a dramatic response. call or go to cancercenter.com cancer treatment centers of america. care that never quits. appointments available now. but the best place to start is in the forest. kubo: i spy something beginning with. s beetle: snow. kubo: no. beetle: snow covered trees. monkey: nothing to do with snow. narrator: head outside to discover incredible animals and beautiful plants that come together to create an unforgettable adventure. kubo: wow! narrator: so grab your loved ones monkey: don t even. narrator: and explore a world of possibilities. kubo: come on, this way. narrator: visit discovertheforest.org to find the closest forest or park to you. conversation about what that looks like, the repeal effort, et cetera. i want to bring in economist neil cristoff. kellyanne clonway said it could take years. there is no plan behind the replacement for the affordable care act. they re united this thinking they re awful. all the possible replacements might not be very effective or palatable for the public. so that s a tremendous incentive to appeal it and as the insurance industry falls apart, to blame obama care for that. i m april afraid they re going to yield it noneffective and not agree to a replacement until sometimes down the road. house leader mccarthy was asked about this this morning. one of the biggest problems of obama care, it was one-party rule all the way through. i think everybody should have their ideas at the table and we should find a system that actually works that empowers the american person to have a relationship with their doctor and lower the cost. there are gestures being made here to replace the affordable care act if repealed with something, right? you heard kevin mccarty are going to be more inclusive than republicans. how do you see this playing out politically? i must say the one advantage of republicans taking ownership is that it s conceivable that there will be fewer efforts to undermine medicaid expansion around the states. as you know, around half the states around the country, republican states, have refused to expand medicaid simply because it is an obama program. you know, mike pence to his credit did expand it in indiana and save lives in indiana as a result and we have pretty good evidence about what is at stake when you havmore people in shu insured. you have lower mortality rates. insurance is a big deal. 22 million people have gained it. so, i mean, you know, look, journalists after 2016 should be really cautious about predicting political outcomes, but it sure seems to me it would not go over particularly well with the public if those 22 million people were evicted from health insurance. and it s hard to create a replacement structure without all the bells and whistles that obama care included. that s the thing, right? so kellyanne conway, who by the way is having lunch with valerie jarrett tomorrow, did say they want to keep the popular parts, the coverage for preexisting conditions. donald trump has said that publicly. on the one hand that s got to be a silver lining to president obama. but on the other, how do you keep those pieces and pay for them. that seems to be the construction of the issue. it s like building a lego structure with only half the blocks. and the mandate is very unpopular. as you remember in 2008, barack obama, the candidate, didn t want to have a mandate and hillary clinton at that point insisted that you had to have one. well, she turned out to be right. and unless you have a mandate, then a lot of young, healthy people don t sign up for health insurance and so you need to have that mandate to make the rest of the provisions work. so it s very easy when you re in opposition to denounce the mandate. if you re trying to construct a replacement, you can t really create a structure without it. thank you very much for joining us here on this first day congress getting back into session. appreciate it. on day o here of the republicans new majority, do you think they ve already overplayed their hand? we re going to talk about what could be signs of republican fracture. up next, the 115th congress gaveling into session right about an hour from now on capitol hill. we ll bring that to you live right here on msnbc. y car insur. i should take a closer look at geico. geico has a long history of great savings and great service. over seventy-five years. wait. seventy-five years? that is great. speaking of great, check out these hot riffs. you like smash mouth? uh, yeah i have an early day tomorrow so. wait. almost there. goodnight, bruce. gotta tune the a. 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[and her new business: i do, to jeanetgo. jeanette was excellent at marrying people. but had trouble getting paid. not a good time, jeanette. even worse. now i m uncomfortable. but here s the good news, jeanette got quickbooks. send that invoice, jeanette. looks like they viewed it. and, ta-da! paid twice as fast. oh, she s an efficient officiant. way to grow, jeanette. get paid twice as fast. visit quickbooks-dot-com. we are back now live from capitol hill. speaker of the house paul ryan getting ready to gavel congress into session. at the same time he s defending a controversial move by members of his party to in essence gut the congressional independent watch dog. the speaker is just now releasing a statement saying i have made clear to the new chair of the house ethics committee that it is not to interfere with the office s investigators or prevent it from doing its job. all members of congress are required to earn the public s trust every single day and this house will hold member accountable to the people. earlier this hour, president-elect trump weighed in asking why this was the first move of the congress, asking them to focus on tax reform and health care. this was a terrible destruction and the watch dog will have its teeth removed and its bark muzzled by these changes. with me now to talk about all of this, democratic strategist liz smith, the former spokeswoman for martin o malley s campaign, along with republican steve cortez. this is a move, steve, to a lot of people it looks like defanging, taking the teeth out of the watch dog, the bark out of the muzzle. donald trump weighed in but he didn t criticize the move itself. he in fact called this independent ethics office unfair and seemed to have more of an objection to the timing more than anything else than the actual substance of this. does he need to be stronger given that this speaks directly to his pledge to drain the swamp? doesn t that make you mad? you were a guy who wanted him to drain the swamp originally. not just originally. i still very much am. is this training the swamp, though, steve? no. when i saw this move, i saw was bone headed and i don t like the content of it. who cares what i think. the president-elect just weighed in against his own party with a couple of forceful tweets. accountability and transparency, those two aspects of our movement are so important and part of the reason that we won is that americans are sick of a crony system, a rigged system in washington, d.c. that exists for its own benefit and not the benefit of main street america. you said the president-elect clashing with his own party here but he seems to be more upset about the timing here. he still called this ethics office potentially unfair. is that holding up to the values of accountability and transparency? timing matters, appearances matter. we have such important work to do and only, what, i guess 17 days now until inauguration. this is the last thing we should be focused on. i m thkf, though, for the president-elect s tweets. i believe it will put this issue to bed. i believe this is going to be a one-day story because of his reaction. health care and growth should be the first priorities for this congress, not inside baseball, inside the beltway ethics skirting. liz, do you agree? you have a major fight brewing over the obama care act. i think we are going to spend time on this. voters might think government is too big. no voters are saying, wow, our elected officials are too ethical. republicans are forgetting recent history. i remember in 2006 democrats came back from the political wilderness, won the speakership, won back the senate, won the majority of governor s races by running against a culture of corruption of the gop. we ran against all the ethical scandals with jack abramoff and it was in response to those scandals that democrats created the office of ethics. this is an electoral winner for democrats. liz, i would i would say left to their own devices, i wouldn t doubt that. but they won t be left to their own devices. i put a lot of the blame of what s happened in washington, d.c. on congressional republicans, absolutely. but that s one of the reasons that donald trump, an outsider came in and beat 16 republicans. but he s going along with this. he s concerned with the timing, not with the actual action of this. guys, give me one second. i want to talk about a different tweet by the president-elect. he went after gm this morning. the president-elect tweeting about gm and gm responding, by the way, about this tweet about the chevy cruze saying that all are built in the assembly plant. . is this what you want to see the president elect doing? he s using the bully pulpit to put managers out there on notice. we re going to create an environment in america where you want to stay. wire going to make it profitable for you and your employees and shareholders to be here by lower taxes, sensible regulation. on the other hand, it s carrot and stick. there are going to be consequences for companies who choose to do business outside of the united states in terms of access to our markets. the american citizens has not benefited over the dumb trade deals that we have erected over the past two administration, not just this one. i anticipate we ll see more of this. liz, i want to get to you very quickly before we wrap up for the last word. congressman king said to me he doubts when it comes to russian interference, he doubts the cia and he doubts the nsa. when you hear something look that, is it a concern to you? and what can democrats do about that kind of perception among their colleagues here in congress? sure. look, i think we should always approach these things with a dose of skepticism, and that s why we should follow the lead of john mccain, lindsay graham and a whole host of democrats saying that the intelligence agencies should make their findings more public. frankly, if the republicans were smart, they would see that more and more democrats are holding on to this idea that this election is illegitimate and swayed by the russians. if they wanted to legitimatize donald trump, they would embrace more transparency in getting to the bottom of russian interference. it might have been democrats russians were messing with this year but in two years, it could be republicans. thanks for a spirited conversation. there s a senate doubleheader tonight on the rachel maddow show. bernie sanders and incoming democratic leader chuck schumer. a lot of news coming out at 9:00. don t miss it. thank you for watching this hour of msnbc live. and now more with my colleague stephanie ruhle. i m back.
best practices within the ihs system itself and shared those and incense vized the ability to move that kind of activity that is providing high-quality care for individuals in that system, in certain areas, and making certain that we re able to extend that across the country in the ihs. okay. we look forward to working with you on that. i think best practices is a good place to start. obviously, those have not been employed in a lot of facilities in our state. in 2009, cms issued a final rule that required all outpatient therapeutic services to be provided under direct supervision every year since then. the rule has been delayed. either administratively or legislatively in small and rural hospitals. i shared this with you as well. in my statement we have a lot of critical access hospitals, rural areas, big geography to cover, and sometimes difficult to get providers out to these areas. so, the question is, if confirmed, will you work to charge of some of these issues in a way that removes that power from washington, d.c., where i think too many of the problems have been happening. thank you, mr. chairman. look forward to it. senator casey. thank you, mr. chairman. dr. price, good to be with you again. thank you. i want to ask you a couple questions that center principally on children and individuals with disabilities. first with regard to children, i think if we re doing the right thing, as not only as government but as a society, if we re really about the business of justice, and if we re really about the business of growing the economy, we should invest a lot and spend a lot making sure every child has health care. the good news, despite a lot of years of not getting to that point, not moving in the right direction, the good news is, we made a lot of progress. the urban institute in an april 2016 report, i won t ask i won t ask the report to be made part of the record, but i ll read a line from this urban institute report. uninsurance among children 1997 to 2015 dated april 2016, says as follows on page 3, it said that the decline in children s uninsurance rate occurred at a relatively steady pace and includes a significant drop following implementation of the affordable care act s key coverage provisions from 7.1% in 2013 to 4.8% in 2015, unquote. so, that s a significant drought. 7.1 to 4.8 is millions of kids have health insurance today that would not have it absent the affordable care act, including the medicaid provisions as well. that 4.8% uninsured rate is at an all-time low. that means we re at a 98% insured rate across the country able to commit to us today, that that that the number of uninsured children will not increase under your during your time as secretary for ywer to be confirmed and the number of uninsured would not increase? our goal it is to decrease the number of uninsured population under age 18 and over age 18. i hope you maintain that because i think that s going to be critically important. the reason i ask that question is not just to validate that as a critically important goal for the nation, but it s your answer seems to be contrary or in conflict with what you have advocated for as a member of the house of representatives, not only in your individual capacity but as chairman of the budget committee. looking at now for reference a an op-ed by gene spurling. with regard to with regard to your policies, the effect of what your policies would be, and now apparently contrary to what was said during the kaernlgs it s now the policy of the trump administration to block grant medicaid? with respect to both you and to mr. spurling, it s because you all are looking at this in a silo. we don t look at it in a silo. we believe it is possible to imagine, in fact, put in place, a system that allows for greater coverage for individuals. as a matter of fact, coverage that actually equals care. right now many of those individuals the aca actually increased coverage in this country. it s one of the things that it actually did. the problem is, is that a lot of folks have coverage but they don t have care. so, they ve got the insurance card. they go to the doctor. the doctor says, this is what we believe you need and they say, i m sorry a cut of $1 trillion, a combined cut of $1 trillion that would adversely impact the children s health insurance program and the medicaid program is totally unacceptable i think to most americans, democrat, republican or otherwise. you re looking at that in a silo. you aren t looking at that in what reform and improvement would be. we re look at the rebuttal in not just what gene spurling said but a whole line of public policy, advocates and experts. and i think the burden for you, sir, is to make sure you fulfill your commitment to make sure no children will lose health insurance coverage while you are secretary. look forward to working with you. senator hiller. thank you, mr. chairman. dr. price, thank you for being here today. thanks for your patience in working with us throughout this confirmation process. if you can put your mike on. it is on. i ll lean a little forward. mr. chairman, as you can imagine, i committed to ensuring that all have access to quality and affordable health care insurance. i have a letter from nevada legislature, directly from our majority leader of the state senate and our speaker of the assembly. and they re good questions. five questions. obviously, they want to get the same answers that all of us want here. we have a nevada 88,000 nevadans who have health insurance through the exchange. 77,000 nevadans eligible for federal tax credits. 217,000 nevadans that receive health care coverage under expansion. basic questions. mr. chairman, if i may, can i submit these questions to the record, on the record, and also if i may ask dr. price if he would respond to this particular letter, to these legislators. again, i think they re very good question. without objection. also if i may add f you could cc the governor also. i think the governor would also like answers to these questions. i think you re in a great position to answer these particular questions. thank you, sir. thank you. if i may, can i get your opinion on the cadillac tax? i think the cadillac tax is is one that has made it such that individuals who are gaining their coverage through their employer there may be a better way to make if so that individuals gaining their coverage through their employer are able to gain access to the kind of coverage they desire. the cadillac tax would affect about 1.3 million nevadans. school teachers, union members, senior citizens. and there s some disagreement as to whether or not these individuals are wealthy or not. there are some on this committee that believe the $1.1 trillion tax increase in obamacare does not affect the middle class. do you agree with that? i think it does affect middle class. i do, too. do you believe school teachers are wealthy? everybody has their own metric of what wealthy is and some people use things to determine what wealth that aren t the greenbacks i would argue most school teachers don t think they re wealthy. do you think most union members are wealthy? i doubt they think they re wealthy. yeah, i would agree with that. do you think most senior citizens are wealthy? most senior citizens are on a fixed income. they would argue they re not wealthy. that s my argument on this particular tax. in fact, obamacare as a whole is it s another middle class tax increase of $1.1 trillion. my i guess my question and question for you is, is that if i can get your commitment to work with this committee, work with myself to end and the treasury secretary to repeal the cadillac tax? well, we ll certainly work to make certain those who gain their coverage through their employer have the access to the highest quality care and coverage possible in a way that makes the most sense for individuals from a financial standpoint as well. does the cadillac tax make the most sense? as i mentioned, i think there are other options that may work better. do you believe it is an increase, health insurance increase, to middle class america? i do. okay. i want to go to medicaid expansion for just a minute. nevada was one of 36 states that chose to expand eligibility for medicaid. we went from iveng the enrollment went from 350,000 to over 600,000. and i guess the concern, and i think it s part of the letter that i gave to the chairman, is whether or not that will have an impact. what we re going to do to see that those individuals aren t impacted. probably the biggest question we have for you here today is what are we going to do about those that are part of the medicaid expansion and how that s going to impact them? yeah, again, as i mentioned to a question on the other side, i believe this is a policy question that needs to be worked out through both the house and the senate. we look forward to working with you and others, if i m able to be confirmed, and making certain that individuals who are currently covered through medicaid expansion either retain that coverage or in some way have coverage through a different vehicle. but every single individual ought to be able to have access to coverage. dr. price, thank you. thank you for being here. thank you. senator warner. thank you, mr. chairman. good to see you again, dr. price. thank you. let me start on something we discussed in my office. one. issues i ve been working on since i ve been governor, working very closely with your friend senator isaacson is the issue of how we as americans address the end of life and those issues. i think we both shared personal stories on that subject. senator isaacson and i have legislation that is called the care planning act that does not remove anyone s choices. it simply allows families to have those discussions with their health care provider and religious/faith leader if needed or desired in a way to prepare for that stage of life. this year cms took a step by introducing a payment into the fee schedule to provide initial reimbursement for providers to have these conversations with others. this is mentioned in a multidisciplinary case team. it also ran a pilot program that allowed hospice-type benefits to be given to individuals who were still receiving some level of curative services called the medicare choice medicare care choices. i believe it s very important that we don t go backwards on these issues. i think we talked about, maybe the only industrial nation in the world that hasn t had this kind of adult conversation about this part of life. again, not about limiting anyone s choices, but would you if you re confirmed, would you continue to work with senator isaacson and i on this very important issue? i look forward to doing so. and not be part of any effort to roll back those efforts that cms have already taken? i think it s important to take a look at the broad array of issues. one issue is liability. i can t remember if we discussed that in your office. the whole issue of liability surrounding these conversations is real. we need to talk about it openly, honestly and work together to try to find a solution to just that. i would concur with that. but i also think this is something that more families need to take advantage of. on friday, january 20th, the president president trump issued an executive order th that that says federal agencies, especially hhs, should do everything they can to, quote, eliminate any fiscal burden of any state on any state or any cost fee, tax penalty or regulatory burden on individuals and providers. dr. price, if you re confirmed in this position, will you use this will you use this executive order in any way to try to cut back on implementation or following the individual mandate before there is a replacement plan in place? well, i think that if i m if i m confirmed, then i m humble enough to appreciate and understand that i don t have all the answers and that the people at the department have incredible knowledge and an expertise. and that my first action within the department itself, as it relates to this, is to gain that insight, gain that information, so that whatever decisions we can make with you and with governors and others can be the most informed and intelligent decision possible. i m not sure you answered my question. i just what i would not want to see happen, as we take i understand your concerns with the cadillac tax. i know there are concerns about you and others have raised about the individual mandate. there are some that are concerned about the income tax surcharges. it s just remarkable to me, and this is one of the reasons i think so many of us are anxious to see your replacement plan, that the president has said we want insurance for everybody. he wants to keep prohibitions on pre-existing condition, keep people on policies until 26. it seems like there s at the same time a rush to eliminate all of the things that pay for the ability to have for americans to have those kind of services. and i would just want your assurance that you wouldn t use this executive order prior to a legal replacement to eliminate the individual mandate, which i would believe helps shore up the cost coverage and the shifting of costs that are required in an insurance system. yeah, i a replacement, a reform, an improvement of the program, i believe, is imperative to be instituted simultaneously or at a time in you will not use this executive order as a reason to, in effect, bypass the law prior to replacement in place? our commitment is to carry out the law of the land. in these last couple minutes i want to go on. i know you ve been in the past a strong critic of the center for medicare and medicaid and innovation of cmmi. i believe in your testimony last week, you saw great promise in it. to me f we re going to move towards a system that emphasizes quality of care rather than simply quantity of care, we ve got to have this kind of experimentation. there s one such program, the diabetes prevention program. that last year cms certified it saved money on a per beneficiary basis. i know my time is rung out. i think they can probably be answered yes or no. do you support cmm delivery system reform demonstrations that have the potential to reduce spending without harming the quality of care? the second clause is the most important one. i suspect making certain we deliver money that we deliver care in a cost effective manner but we absolutely must not do things that harms the quality of care being provided to patients. if part of that quality of care, and i d agree with you, would mean bundled and episodic payment models that actually move us toward quality over volume, would you support those efforts? for certain patient populations, bundled payments make a lot of sense. if these experiments are successful, would you allow the expansion of these across the whole system? i think that what we ought to do is allow for all sorts of innovation, not just in this area. there are things i m certain that haven t been thought up yet, that would actually improve quality and delivery of health care in our country. we ought to be incentivizing that kind of innovation. i would simply say, mr. chairman, cmmi is an area i would like to have seen more but it s a model and tool we ought to not discard. thank you. thank you, senator. senator scott. thank you, chairman. dr. price, good see you again. launched the nation s first statewide pay for success project with nurse/family partnership with the use of medicaid funds. 20% of the babies born in south carolina are born to first-time, low income mothers. we also have a much higher than average infant mortality rate. nurse/family partnership is an evidence-based and has already shown real results. both in the health of the mother and the babies. but also in other aspects of the mother s life, such as high school graduation rates for teen moms and unemployment rates. what are your thoughts on incorporating a pay for success model to achieve success metrics? it sounds like a great program that is actually has the right metric. that is the quality of care and the improvement of lives. and as you state, if it s having that kind of success, it probably ought to be put out there again as a best practice for other states to look at and try to model. yes, sir. thank you. i believe you were the director of the orthopedic clinic at grady memorial hospital in atlanta. i was. you mentioned something that i think is very important. i think grady hospital had the highest level of uninsured georgians. you talked about having coverage but really not access. can you elaborate on how your experience at grady may help inform you and direct you as it relates to the uninsured population? it was an incredible privilege to work at grady the number of years i did. we saw patients from all walks of life and many, many uninsured individuals. they come with the same kinds of concerns, the same kinds of challenges that every other individual has. and one of the big they have an additional concern and that is, is somebody going to be caring for me? is somebody going to be ainl able to help me. that s why it was so fulfilling to have the privilege of working at grady and assisting people at a time when they were not only challenged from a health care standpoint, but challenged from the concern of whether or not people would be there to help them. yes, sir. i know you re aware of the title i of every student succeeds act. head start to have access to resources. it seems to me that would be imperative for the secretary of hhs and secretary of education to look ats tos synergiz to help the underprivileged student? can i get your commitment to work with the secretary of education where it makes sense to help serve those students? we have head start under you and other programs under esa. it would be wonderful for us to take the taxpayer in one hand, the child in the other hand and look for ways to make sure that they both win. yeah, i you ve identified an area that is a pet peeve of many of ours. that is, that we don t seem to collaborate across jurisdictional lines. not just in congress, but certainly in the administrative side. look forward to doing just that. having as a meertd tric, how ar kids doing? are they actually getting the kind of service and education that they need? are they improving? are we just being custodians? are we just parking kids in a spot or are we actually assisting in improving their lives and able to demonstrate that? if we re not asking the right questions f we re not looking at the right metrics, we won t get the right answers to expand what s actually working or modify it and move it in a better direction. thank you. i think that s one of the more important parts of your opportunity in this position, is looking at those kids, and you know as well as anyone as a doctor, those ages, before you ever get into pre-k, kindergarten, the development of the child in those first three or four years are powerful opportunities for us to direct one s potential so that they maximize it. sometimes we re missing those opportunities. we think somehow the education system will help that child catch up, but there are things that have to happen before they ever get in the education system. so, i thank you for your willingness to work in that direction. my last question has to deal with the employ-sponsored health care system we re so accustomed to in this country that provides so many with their own insurance. in my home state we have 2.5 million people covered by their employer coverage. if confirmed as hhs secretary, how would you support american employers in their effort to provide effective family health coverage in a consistent and affordable matter? said differently, there s been some conversation about looking for ways to decouple having health insurance through your employer. i think the employer system has been absolutely remarkable success in allowing individuals to gain coverage they might otherwise not gain. i think preserving the employer system is is imperative. that being said, i think there may be ways in which individual employers i ve heard employers say, if you give me the opportunity to provide my employees so they can select the coverage they want, that makes more sense to them. if that works from a voluntary standpoint for employers and for employees, then it may be something to look at. that would be more like the hra approach, where exactly. employer funds an account and the employee chooses the health insurance, not necessarily under the umbrella of the employer specifically? exactly. and gains the same tax benefit. thank you, chairman. thank you. senator mccaskill. at risk of being way, way away from you, and you being someone i ve worked with and respected greatly i want to correct something in your opening statement. the first nominee of president trump that this senate considered was confirmed by a vote of 98-1. i would not consider that a partisan vote. the second nominee of president trump was confirmed by a vote of 88-11. once again, i would not consider that a partisan vote. so, i really do think we are all trying to look at each nominee individually. and i have had a chance to review congressman price s questioning of secretary sabelius. it was no bean bag. it was tough stuff. i think all of this looks different depending on where we re sitting. i wanted to make that point. as to passing obamacare without one democratic vote, we re about to repeal obamacare without one democratic vote. this will be a partisan exercise under reconciliation. it will not be a bipartisan effort. what we have after the repeal is trumpcare. whatever is left after the dust settles is trumpcare. now, i know the president likes to pay close attention to what he puts his name on and i have a feeling, congressman, that even though you keep saying today that congress will decide, you re not really believing, are you, that your new boss is not going to weigh in on what we what he wants congress to pass? we re not going to have a plan from him? we look forward to working with you and other members my question is, will we have a plan from the president? will he have a plan? if i have the privilege to being confirmed, i look forward to working with the president and bringing a plan to you. great. so, the plan will come from president trump, and you will have the most important role in shaping that plan as his secretary of health and human services, correct? i hope i have input, yes, ma am. yes. so whatever trumpcare ends up being, you will have a role in it. i think it s really important to get that on the record. now, when we repeal obamacare, we re going to do a tax cut. does anybody in america who makes less than $200,000, are any of them going to benefit from that tax cut? that s a hypothetical and you all are no, it s not a hypothetical. when we repeal obamacare, there are taxes in obamacare. and when it is repealed,there is no question that taxes are going to be repealed i promise you, the taxes are going to be repealed. when those taxes are repealed, will anyone in america who makes less than $200,000 benefit from the repeal of those taxes? i look forward to working with you on the plan and hopefully that will be the case. no, no, no, no. i m asking, the taxes in there now, does anybody who makes less than $200,000 now, pay those taxes now? it depends on how you define the taxes. many individuals are paying more than they did prior to no, i m talking about taxes. the cadillac tax has not been implemented, so that doesn t affect anybody. i m trying to get at the very simple question, that i don t think you want to answer. in fact, when obamacare is repealed, no one in america who makes less than $200,000 is going to enjoy the benefit of that. as i say, if confirmed, i look forward to working with you on that. that s not an answer. in my office, ending medicare, your plan and you have worked on for year, and converting medicare to private insurance markets with government subsidies, correct? not correct. well, we talked yesterday, and we kind of went through this in my office. by the end of our conversation, you admitted to me, and i m going to quote you, that your plan for medicare in terms of people getting either tax credits or subsidies or whatever however you re going to pay for the medicare recipients would be them having choices on a private market. you said, yes, it was pretty similar to obamacare, with the exception of the mandate. didn t you say that to me yesterday? that s a fairly significant exception. well, but these people are old. they don t need to be mandated to get insurance. it s not like a 27-year-old who doesn t think he s going to get sick. you don t need a mandate for people who are elderly. they have to have health insurance. so, the mandate is not as relevant, but didn t you admit to me that obamacare and private markets is very similar to what you were envisioning? didn t you use the phrase, similar? it is pretty similar. what i did say is the mandate is significant. the mandate is significant, i get, in obamacare. but we don t need a mandate for seniors, would you agree with that? you don t need to tell seniors they need health insurance? i hope we don t need a mandate for anybody so they can purchase the kind of coverage they want and not the kind the government forces them to buy. finally, you want to block grant medicaid for state flexibility and efficiency, correct? i believe that medicaid is a system that is now not responding necessarily to the needs of the recipients. consequently, it s incumbent upon all of us as policymakers to look for a better way to solve that challenge. are you in favor of block granting medicaid? i m in favor of a system more responsive. are you in favor of block granting medicaid? it s a simple question, congressman. for the most powerful job in health care in the country. i don t know why you re unwilling to answer block granting medicaid. it s not that complicated. i m in favor of making certain medicaid is a system that responds to patients, not the government. i don t understand why you won t answer that. and i don t have time. i know i m over. i will probably i don t know if we re going to get another round, mr. chairman. should i ask my last question or are we going to get another chance? i m going to allow additional questions. i hope that not everybody will take the opportunity. i will digssappoint you, i m sorry. let me just on that point say that obamacare raised taxes on millions of americans families across income levels. nonpartisan joint committee on taxation in may of 2010 analyses identified significant widespread tax increases on taxpayers earning under $200,000 contained in the aca. and, for example, for 2017, 13.8 million taxpayers with incomes below $200,000 will be hit with more than $3.7 billion, with a b, in obamacare tax from an increase in the income floor for the medical expense deductions. obamacare has led to middle class tax hikes. without question, it s led to fewer insurance options, higher deductibles and higher premiums. so, i think those are facts that can t be denied. i ll look forward to looking at those facts because somewhere in this mix we have alternative facts. well, just i think these are right, i can tell you that. well, i think mine are right. mr. chairman, point of privilege to respond? yes, sir. on this point, no alternative facts. the republicans in last year s reconciliation bill cut taxes for one group of people. they cut taxes for the most fortunate in the country. that s a matter of public record. it s not an alternative factor or universe. people making $200,000 and up got their taxes cut. that was in the reconciliation bill of the republicans last year. well, let s see who s next here. i don t agree with that, but we ll see who s next. senator grassley oh, cassidy. i didn t see you. senator cassidy and then senator grassley. thank you, mr. chairman. dr. price, how are you? i m well, senator. let s talk a little about medicaid because we re getting this rosy scenario of obamacare and of the republican attempt to replace it. it does seem a little odd. first, i want to note for the record that president trump has said in various ways that he doesn t want people to lose coverage. he would like to cover as many people as under obamacare. wishes to take care of those with pre-existing conditions and to do it without mandates and lower costs. those will be your marching orders, fair statement? absolutely. now, let s go to you and i, we talked at a previous meeting. we both worked in public hospitals for the uninsured. and for the poorly insured, folks like medicaid. now, let s just talk about medicaid. why would we see patients on medicaid at a hospital for the uninsured? if they wanted to see an orthopedic orthopedist in private practice, does medicaid pay a provider well enough to pay costs of seeing an orthopedic patient? oftentimes it does not. as you well know, as i mentioned before, one out of three physicians who ought to be able to see medicaid patients in this nation, do not take any medicaid patients. there s a reason for that. whether it s reimbursement or whether it s hassle factor or regulations or the like. but that s a system that isn t working for those patients. and we auought to be honest abo that, look at that and answer the question why and then address that. now, i ll note that when the house version of the aca passed, robert pear in the new york times wrote an article about a michigan physician, an oncologist, who had so many medicaid patients from michigan medicaid that she was going bankrupt. she had to discharge patients from her practice. now, the ranking members said we can t have alternative facts. agree with that. we also know new england journal of medicine article speak being medicaid expansion in oregon about how when they expanded medicaid in oregon, outcomes did not improve. so, i suppose that kind of informs you as you say we need to make medicaid better for patients. absolutely. we need to look at the right metrics. just gaining coverage for individuals is an admirable goal. but it is it ought not be the only goal. providing for people on the ground, for real people and real lives. whether or not we re affecting them in a positive way or negative way. if we re affecting them in a negative way, again, we need to be honest with ourselves and say, how can we improve that? now, a lot of times there s this kind of conflation of per beneficiary payments to states per medicaid enrollee and block grants, which to me is a conflation. i ll note that bill clinton on the left and phil graham and rick santorum on right proposed per beneficiary payments some time ago. it s actually how would you agree with this, how the federal employee self-benefit program pays for these federal employ s employees, they pay per beneficiary payment to an insurer, fair statement? correct. wouldn t it be great if medicare worked as as well as federal employee health insurance in terms of outcome? when you talk about the medicaid population, it s not a monolithic population. there are four different demographic groups within it seniors and disabled and then healthy moms and kids, by and large. we treat each one of those folks exactly the same from the medicaid rules. so, when you re pressed on whether, by golly, you believe in block grants, i don t hear any nuance in that queshgs are you speak being a per beneficiary payment? are you speak being each of those four, one of those four? how do you dice that? new york is an older state demographically. utah is a young statement. fair statement? absolutely. those are the things i think we tend not to look at, because they re more difficult to measure. they re more difficult to look at. but when we re talking about people s lives, when we re talking about people s health care, it s imperative we do the extra work that needs to be done to determine whether or not, yes, indeed, the public policy we re putting forward will help you, not harm you. let me ask because there s also some criticism about health savings accounts. i love them because they activate the patient. i think we re familiar with the healthy indiana plan where on a waiver they gave folks of lower income health savings accounts and had better outcomes, decreased e usage. any comment on that? just when people do engage in their health care, they tend to demand more, they tend to demand better services. and individuals that have greater opportunity for choices of who they see, where they re treated, when they re treated and the like, have greater opportunity to gain better health care. going back to not one to have alternative facts f we contrast the experience in healthy indiana with the experience in oregon where national economic bureau of research published in new england journal of medicine found no different outcome from those fulfilled in medicaid expansion program in oregon, contrast with good outcomes, in that which in indiana engaged patient to become activated in their own care, er usage fell but outcomes improved. i think in our world of standard facts, i kind of like your position. thanks for bringing a nuanced, informed view to the health care reform debate, dr. price. thanks, senator. senator grassley. two statements before i ask a couple questions. one is, it s kind of a welcome relief to have somebody of your profession in this very important role, particularly knowing the importance of the doctor/patient relationship, because in my dealing with cms and hhs over a long period of time, i think that the bureaucracy has been short of a lot of that hands-on information that people ought to have. and secondly, when you were in my office, we discussed the necessity of your responding to congressional inquiries. and you very definitely said you would. i tongue in cheek said maybe you ought to say maybe because a lot of times they don t do it, but since you said you would, i will hold you to that and appreciate anything you can do to help us do our oversight. as a result of oversight, i got a legislation passed a few years ago called a physician s payment sunshine act. and the only reason i bring this up is because it took senator wyden and me last december working hard to stop the house of representatives from gutting that legislation in the cures act that passed. i want to make very clear that the legislation i m talking about doesn t prohibit anything. it only has reporting requirements because it makes it very, very well, it brings about the principle of transparency, brings accountability. and i ve got some studies here that we did, and some newspaper reports on them, particularly one about a psychiatrist at emory university that was not reporting everything that they should report and even the president of the emory university came to my office and said, thank you for making us aware of this stuff. i want to put those in the record. since you re administering this legislation and since senator blumenthal and i will think about expanding this legislation to include nurse paractitioner assistant and even under the obamacare administration, after we got it passed, it was three years getting regulations, to get it carried out. so, effectively, it s only been working for 2, maybe 2 1/2 years. so i would like to if you re confirmed, would you and the department of human health and human services work with me to ensure that this transparency initiative is not weakened? we look forward to working with you, sir. i think transparency in this area and so many others is vital. again, not just not just in outcomes or in pricing but so many areas so patients are able to understand what s going on in the health care system. thank you. last one deals with vaccine safety. you re a physician. i believe you would agree that immunization is very important for modern medicine and that we ve been able get rid of smallpox way back in 77, worldwide polio, i think, in 1991. at least in the western hems and all that. so, as a physician, would you recommend that families follow the recommended vaccine schedule that has been established by experts and is constantly reviewed? i think that science and health care has identified a very important aspect of public health, and that s the role of vaccinations. thank you very much. i yield back my time. thank you, senator. senator stabenau. thank you. a series of stories from public forehe forum that was held by my colleagues, that that be included in the record. without objection. thank you very much. welcome, congressman price, and senator. and appreciate our private discussion as well as the discussion this morning. let s start out with lots of questions and see if we can move through some things quickly. you said this morning that you would not abandon people with pre-existing conditions is that basically what you re talking about is high-risk pools, is that one of the strategies that you re thinking about? i ve heard that talked about this morning. i think high-risk pools can be incredibly helpful in making certain individuals that have pre-existing illness are able to be cared for in the highest manner possible. i think there are other methods as well. we ve talked about other pooling mechanisms, the destruction of the small group market has made it such that folks can t find coverage affordable for them. one way to solve that challenge is to allow individuals in the small group market to pool together. i think we talked about this in your office. with the old blue heel model being the template for individuals who aren t economically aligned are able to pool together their resources solely for the purpose of purchasing coverage. for about 35 years we have tried high-risk pools. 35 states had them before the affordable care act. frankly, it didn t produce great results. in 20110.2% of people with pre-existing conditions, 0.2%, were actually in a high-risk pool. and the premiums were 150 to 200% higher than standard rates for healthy individuals. and they had lifetime and annual limits on coverage and cost states money. so, that was the reality before we passed the affordable care act. so, let me also ask you, when president trump said last weekend that insurance was going to be much better, do you think that insurance without protections for those pre-existing conditions or without maternity coverage or without mental health coverage or insurance that would reinstate caps on cancer treatments is better? well, i don t know that that s what he was referring to. he said it would be better. if we, in fact, took away if we went to high-risk tools instead of covering people with pre-existing conditions or if we stopped the other coverage we have now, i m just wondering if you define that as better. you d have to give me a specific well, let me what may be better for you may not be better for me or anyone else. that s the important thing i m trying to get across. is patients need to be at the center of this, not government. should government be deciding these things or should patients be deciding these things? prior to the affordable care act, about 70% of the private plans that a woman could purchase in the marketplace did not cover basic maternity care. do you think that that s better, not to cover basic maternity care? i presume that she wouldn t purchase that coverage if she needed it then. she would have to pay more, just as in general for many women, just being a woman with a pre-existing condition. that is the reason why we have a basic set of services covered under health care. it s just a different way of looking at this. this is something where, sure, if a woman wanted to pay a premium, wanted to pay more, she could find maternity care. we said in the affordable care act, that s pretty basic. for over half the population who are women, maternity care ought to be covered. let me go to another one. do you believe mental health services should be a guaranteed benefit in all health insurance plans? i ve been a supporter of mental health inclusion, yes. so, mental health should be a defined benefit under health insurance plans? i think mental health illnesses ought to be treated on the same model as other physical ill pss. %-p lot of discussion, and i have to say also with the nominee for office management and budget also talking today about medicare and social security, i personally believe people on medicare should be very worried right now in terms of what overall we re hearing. but i did want my time is up. i did want just to indicate a message from my mom who s 98 years old who said she doesn t want more choices. she just wants to be able to see her doctor and get the medical care that she needs. is not at all supportive of the idea of medicare in some way being changed into premium support into a voucher. so, i m conveying to you somebody who s getting great care right now and she s not interested in more choices. she just wants to keep her care. thank you. chairman, i would just convey to medicare population in this nation that they don t have reason to be concerned. we look forward to assisting them and gaining the care and coverage they need. thank you. senator cantwell. thank you, mr. chairman. congressman price, sorry we haven t had a chance to talk. i apologize. no, i think both have tried and it s been a myriad of consequences. weather. i wanted to ask you broadly, i know a lot of my colleagues have been asking you about medicaid, but what do you think is the rise in medicaid cost? what is it due to? i think it s multifactorial. we have a system that has many, many controls that are providing greater costs to the provision of the care, that is that s being provided. i think that oftentimes we re not identifying the best practices in the medicaid system, so that patients move through the system in a way that s much more economical and much more efficient and effective. not just from a cost standpoint, but from a patient standpoint. there are so many things that could be done for especially the sickest of the sick in the medicaid population, where we could put greater resources and greater individual attention to individual patients. as you know, in a bell curve of patients in any population, there are those that are the outliers on the high side, where they where the resources spent to be able to provide their care is significant. and if you focus on those individuals, then you oftentimes specifically, then you oftentimes can provide a higher level of care and a higher level of quality of care for those folks and a more responsive care for those folks at a lower cost and move them down into the mainstream of the bell curve. okay. well, you brought up a couple of interesting points. and i want to follow up on that. specifically, if i started that conversation, i would start with two big fa nphenomenons. if you re living 10 or 15 years longer than in the past, they re going to consume more health care. second, the baby boomer population reaching retirement age. those two things are ballooning the cost of health care in general, and, specifically, for the medicaid population. and i want to make sure i understand where you are, because i feel like the administration is creating a war on medicaid. you re saying that you want to cap and control the cost. and what we ve already established in the affordable care act are those things that are best practice incentives and ways to give the medicaid population leverage in getting affordable health care. i want to understand if you are for these things. for example, we provided resources in the affordable care act for to rebalance off of for medicaid patients off of nursing home carrion to community-based care. why? because it s more affordable. do you support that rebalancing effort? i would respectfully, senator, take issue with your description of war on medicaid. we want to make sure medicaid population is able to receive the highest possible care. i ve cared for thousands of medicaid patients. the last thing we want is to decrease the quality of care they have access to. clearly, the system isn t working right now. moving towards home-based care is something that is that is if it s right for the patient, it s a wonderful thing to be able to do. we ought to incentivize that. there are so many things we could do in medicaid that what provide greater quality of care that we don t incentivize right now. we did incentivize it in the affordable care act in your state and about other 20 states actually did it. they took the money from the affordable care act, in fact, georgia received $57 million in transition to make sure medicaid beneficiaries got care in community-based care. it s been able to shift 10% of their long-term costs, basically, to that community-based care. so, huge savings. it s working. so, are you for repealing that part of the affordable care act? what i m for is making certain, again, the medicaid population has access to the highest care possible. we ll do everything to improve that. so many in the medicaid population don t have access to the highest quality care. i would hope you would look at this model, and also look at the basic health plan model which is, again, what i think you re proposing and what the administration is refusing to refute, when the president said, i m going to protect these things and my colleague, senator sanders brought this up and said, are you going to protect this and the white house chief of staff is now saying, no, no, we re basically going to cap medicaid spending. it s a problem. what we want to do is we want to give them leverage in the marketplace. that s what the basic health plan does. that s what the community-based care plan does. it gives them the ability to get more affordable care at better outcomes and is saving us money. so, if you could give us a response. i see my time is expired. look at those two programs and tell me whether you support those delivery system reforms in the affordable care act. be happy to. thank you. thank you, senator. that would end our first round. i d like to not go through a full second round. but we ve got some additional senators here who would like to ask some more, so i guess we ll start with senator wyden. thank you, mr. chairman. congressman, i have several ideas on we re going to break away from the hearing momentarily to assess what we ve just heard. an important hearing before the senate finance committee. the confirmation process for dr. tom price. the congressman who has been nominated to become the next secretary of health and human services. it s already three hours, jake, they ve been hearing the testimony. the confirmation process going forward. a lot of democrats are deeply concerned about this nomination. they are. and they ve been really trying to press for specifics in terms of what exactly will be the bill, the legislation that replaces obamacare after republicans repeal it. even just basic opinions. kellyanne conway, president trump s top adviser, has said publicly that they are going to take medicaid and make it a block grant program, meaning the money instead of going from the federal government to individuals will go to states. states will decide how to mete out that money. and congressman price wouldn t even offer an opinion. senator claire mccaskill, democrat of missouri, was just asking, are you in favor of block granting medicaid, and he