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class= nosel > div class= colspacer > div class= gutr > that is it for us, thank you so much for watching. remember, if your friends are busy tonight, had a hot date, you and can watch the nightcap tomorrow night, saturday at 11:00. he s turn right here on msnbc. for now i am signing off and on that note i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thank you for staying up late with me, i will see you tomorrow. i think back and i go, this was such a senseless murder. and why diane? why, when she was ready to start a brand-new life? i will never know that answer. spectacles kept coming. hi diane, it s 2:00, just making sure you are here today. at 2:00 it was too late. simone have killed her. we had her body at the scene, that was all. she had a fiance. they argued a lot. we had our ups and downs, no question. and a coworker with a crush. he was an odd character. i was always very spoiled lead to her. everybody was suspect. then the break. tips from other women. he wanted to get me in there and i didn t budge and all of the bells were going off. i jumped in my car and took off. i felt i had dodged a bullet. the who was frightening, but the y was much worse. in my wildest rooms i would have never imagined something like this could even exist we you certainly had a motive. yes, we did. it was the afternoon of november the 15th, austin, texas, 4:00 p.m. something ominous in the air. suddenly, the familiar feel of it against the skin, comping. something big. they did tell us on the news, if you don t have to go out tonight, don t, because we are going to get relentless reins. and then the sky overhead turned dark, like midnight in the afternoon. when stuff like that is pitch black out and you have the fear of tornadoes. sure enough, so the announcers on tv, twisters had been spotted heading towards the city, including northwest. diane lived in the northwest and i called her i said, hey, girl, they just said there is a tornado heading in your direction, and she said my direction? and she s like, i don t know what to do. i ve never been in a tornado. so, she was kind of freaked out? she was very freaked out. then the ferocious rain and heavy wind, the thick funnel clouds dipped around the city. the next morning, a friday. it was all over. friends checked on friends. but no one could reach diane. the freaked out one. diane holik work from home, for ibm. that morning, so unlike her. she missed the conference call. hi diane, it is to:00. i am just checking to make sure you are safe. all day, phone calls from ibm and friends went to voicemail. diane, hey, this is sharon, i was going to see if you are going to show up tonight or not. she didn t. i got to the club and i was waiting, and she didn t come, she didn t come, and i spent all of my time wondering when she was going to show up. had she been caught in the storm? had her house been hit? a coworker called the police. they cruised over to diane s neighborhood and found her big house unscathed. they. through windows, the security key. they went upstairs. there, all but hidden behind a guest room bed, they found diane. someone had killed her. i actually had a scream of some sort, just like, you can t it is not true. that is not what happened, that is not diane. but of course it was. diane holik, 43 years old, suddenly the unlikely center of a strange and disturbing mystery, and a most unlikely victim, murdered. absolutely lived life with gusto. she was a vivacious, beautiful woman. reporter: lynn had a known diane since the 90s when they started working together at ibm. she let her friends, she let her family. we would vacation together. we would have so much fun and just laugh and laugh and laugh. well, a lot of things we like to do altogether was we hit the clubs a lot. lots of dancing. lots of dancing. diane met anita and cheyenne cooper at the ladies room of an austin bar. she was in there, she said oh, you have cowboy boots, you must know where country barn is. we said yeah, i do. our best friend is coming and we are going to go when she gets here. and she said cool, i m going to go with y all. first time i had ever met her, never seen her before. she was in town for 3 weeks. diane said well, not just for the club, so she gets into the truck where her clothes are and starts pulling at something western and starts putting it on right there in the parking lot. she was crazy. she was throwing things on that she was stripped right there in the parking lot. right there in the parking lot. we danced all night long, she was having a blast, so happy that she had met the two of us, because she said, now i have me some dancing buddies. so magnetic. which, said her colleague, helped make her a fine recruiter for ibm. i would center off to colleges, and these kids, they would just gravitate to her. she had a personality that just stood out. and her attitude? endlessly adventurous. one time i remember sending her off to do a recruiting trip, and she got out there and they were doing a balloon fest, and she called me up and said, i need half a day off. and i said why? she said, i m jumping in a balloon and going. she would always test the edges with you? always, yes. she would throw all kinds of parties at her house and invite everyone she knows. so, they may not know each other, but everybody knew her? yes. yes. and she was great, she just loved having all of these wonderful people around her. in any room, any crowd, diane was the lure, especially to men. it was never a problem going out with her, because she was like a magnet for all of us. yeah. there was always been around when diane was there. always. so there were. now she was dead. and the one thing that seemed obvious, there is that second floor bedroom, what happened to diane for the mark of a man. coming up, a killer is calm and cool as he is coldhearted. you commit the act of murder, and then you leave, you don t want to get caught, the that person didn t do it. that, in itself was odd. someone close to diane? an interesting thing happened when she had 40. i need a partner, i want marriage. when dateline continues. tel all bundled with progressive you ve got the peace of mind to really wander. yeah. yeah, i just hope it stays this way. once word gets out about these places they tend to -are you done? -aaand there it is. willll (rebecca) it wasn t until after they had done the surgery to remove all the toes that it really hit me. you see the commercials. you never put yourself in that person s shoes until you re there. 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(energizing music) i got a page from the supervisor in homicide saying that a woman had been found deceased in her home in northwest austin. narrator: detectives tracey gerrish and eric de los santos i got a page from the supervisor and homicide, saying that the woman had been deceased in her home in northwest boston. detectives tracy garrett i long since learned that if didn t tell them much. but when diane was murdered? we had the body, and that was all in the beginning. they looked for evidence of forced entry, there was none. the doors were locked and windows were attacked. either the killer knew her, or she let the person in. in any event it certainly didn t look like a robbery turned deadly. she still had her watch on, she still had a tennis bracelet on, and she had a charm that was in her hair that had obviously been on that was not around her neck. she also had some money that was sticking out of her pocket. so, maybe diane s body would tell them the story. the killer had hidden her under a bedspread. it appeared that she had been strangled, a ligature mark around her neck. it could have been a rope, it could have been one of those flecks fans that you used to exercise. clearly not somebody s had? clearly. what about her eyes and her face? was there any sign there? she definitely had in the eyes sign strangulation. she appeared to have a bruise on her cheek. it was like a rubbing type of a bruise on her cheek and she had four of them on her stomach. rubbing type of ruse? as if you are being dragged across the carpet and it was a rug burn. they discovered sponges of lipstick and mascara on the carpet. we also found a spot of urine, where her body would have been, had she been strangled. so, we knew something that happened there at that particular spot. she must have been killed there. and behind the bed where they found her body, was there any indication that she had been sexually assaulted in any way? no. her clothes weren t messed up. there was nothing indicating that she had been fighting, she had no scratch marks on her neck. why didn t she try to defend herself? so, as we continue to look at the body we notice some red marks on her wrist. that was interesting, because you don t usually see that. there was no ties, there was no rope, there is no tape around her in the room. just red marks. just red marks. little red marks that look, somehow familiar. it looks like two parallel lines, and then perpendicular to those lines were little lines , probably a 16th of an inch apart. i ve seen these marks before, sometimes on the flex ties that we use. ties. zip tied binder. but then he would have cut them off afterwards. he obviously cut them off afterwards, and we knew that immediately. detective santos s mind went to the darkest of places. diane must have been restrained with those zip ties, helpless, terrified as she watched her killer preparing the ligature and put it around her neck. what kind of horror did you go through? what was going through your head? after she was dead, the killer must have stayed for a while, carefully erasing any sign of his or her presence. so, that in and of itself was odd, that doesn t happen. you commit the act of murder and then you leave, you are scared, you want to get out of there, you don t want to get caught. this person that we didn t know, if they were male or female, didn t do that. with this person? so deliberate, so cold-blooded. this was no straightforward case, nothing simple about it. i probably didn t sleep for 72 hours. as they chased down their endless questions. so, what does that leave you with? was it a targeted killing? the one who is angry with her? those were all possibilities. most of the time you are going to be killed by someone you know. sometimes it is someone you know very well. and of course, we are all familiar with domestic violence, so, you know, we want to see who is in the immediate inner circle of her life? diane s friends, they learned, she had been married years before, but had spent most of her adult life as a single woman and happily so. until she changed her mind. she left her single life, and she loved her independence, but an interesting thing happened when she had 40. she decided, i need a partner, i need somebody like my friends have. i wanted marriage, i want the things they have. so, diane set out to find a mate. with the help of the dating service, it s just lunch. and pretty soon she met a divorced father of two, named dennis connolly. i think they truly, immediately had a chemistry. i think they were in love. he was a successful businessman, he was handsome, he took her everywhere, and that is what she was looking for. just two months later, dennis presented diane with the bubble of a lifetime, a $20,000 engagement ring. he loved her, he put her on a pedestal and treated her like a queen. she likes his daughter, she cared very much for his daughters. and that was a strong point. they make plans, as lovers do. dennis had moved from austin to houston. the idea was diane could sell her big house and move down there too. it was a downmarket then, but as diane told her friends, there was one potential buyer. now diane was dead. and there were all of those questions. not a robbery, and yet, as the detectives soon discovered, something was missing that $20,000 engagement ring nowhere to be found. so, police wondered, where was fiance, dennis, during the violent storm? and did he know something? coming up. the storm outside and in. they argued a lot. we had our ups and downs, no question. you know, it wasn t like physical? never. when dateline continues. lin it s okay to show off. with dupixent, show off your clearer skin and less itch. because you have plenty of reasons to show off your skin. with dupixent, the #1 prescribed biologic by dermatologists and allergists, you can stay ahead of your eczema. it helps block a key source of inflammation inside the body that can cause eczema to help heal your skin from within. many adults saw 90% clearer skin, some even achieved long-lasting clearer skin and fast itch relief after first dose. serious allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. tell your doctor about new or worsening eye problems such as eye pain or vision changes including blurred vision, joint aches and pain, or a parasitic infection. don t change or stop asthma medicines without talking to your doctor. show off to the world. ask your eczema specialist about dupixent. ask your eczema specialist it was true, all her friends knew it, diane holik was in love with the man it was true. all of her friends knew it. diane holik was in love with the man she met , smitten like a teenage girl, but the road of love, as we all know isn t always smooth. they were engaged so quickly. too quickly? before long they encountered some serious issued set her friends, anita and jared. they argued a lot. about, one example? her dogs, were like children to diane. but she told her friends, dennis didn t want any dogs in their new house in houston. they fought, set her friends, about what he seems to want her to be. she was always talking about, hey, didn t want her to do this or didn t want her to do that and that will cause arguments. she would not go along with it? no. she was independent? what was he? controlling. oh. very controlling. that can be a difficult combination to so, it was confusing, she probably wore this spectacular ring, but the engagement was off and then, maybe on again. and yet, that very week, set her friends, diane told them she still didn t know what to do. so, she had gone back and forth and back and forth? emotionally she was a roller coaster, because she just couldn t see how it was going to work and none of us could see how it would work either. especially when she told sharon she had made a date with another man. we kept telling her, if you are still wanting to do these things, you are not ready for that. but she had her house for sale? yes, she was going to downsize. if she didn t get married, she was going to downsize anyway, because this house was just way too good. waffling under plans for dennis? a date with another man? she said she had seen dennis angry, so, after diane was murdered, she wondered maybe he had just lost control of his life and killed her. that was my first thought. detective gerst ash dennis to come to the station to speak without the aid of a lawyer. the detectives focused on the timeline. they believed diane had been killed that stormy thursday afternoon or evening. her body was discovered about 5:30 p.m., friday. we were definitely interested in where he had been for the last three days. he knew he was going to verify his alibi to us. at the station, dennis seemed upset, but composed. as he told investigators, he was in his office in houston the night of the big storm, but exchange online messages with diane, back in austin that afternoon. it was just, you know, like, hey, i m working late, i m getting ready to go home, and she just send me, you know, i love you. that was it. and you were at the office? okay. dennis said he got home from work late thursday evening and was back on friday. we looked at the conference, could he have driven down to austin for diane and theoretically driven back in time for work? and yes, he probably could have. they checked diane s answering machine and found messages from him, this one was left on friday, the day after the big storm. she was dead by then. hey, you, if i don t hear from you in about an hour, and calling the freaking police. and have to go by your house okay? another message, saturday morning. diane, what is going on? give me a call. you have me worried to death. by. which could have been some sort of cover-up, of course. dennis admitted, their relationship was iffy. we ran into rough spots. we were going to build a house in houston and i decided that, you know, given the fact that we weren t getting along to gather, very well i mean, there was no fight, we all fight, it s just everybody carries baggage of your relationships at this age, and and our baggage was clashing, and we were working on it, but we decided not to be engaged anymore. okay. and stop holding a house. but he said they were going to therapy, which was hoping. i mean, we were really, really making breakthroughs, you know? about diane s dogs, for example. she saw that i was accepting the fact that, you know, her dogs were going to be in the house. and not long before diane was killed i remember her saying you know, that she would she loved me and that she would jump at the chance to be in a relationship and marry me, and, you know, no matter how long it took. yeah. we had our ups and downs, no question, but it wasn t like no physical fights? no. never, never, never even angry or loud words. it was just it s stupid, you know? she thought i should be more of a like, handyman kind of guy, like her dad, right? and and i thought she should be more appreciative. what she faithful to you? i would i would be shocked if she wasn t. i would be stunned. everyone has his or her version of the truth, of course. dennis story, not at all what diane s friends said they had been hearing from her. i wanted so many times to just say, dude, you are just so stupid, because she did want to marry you. detective geyer garrett took fingerprints, collected dennis s dna and check his alibi, and dennis? before he left, dennis brought up another name. has anybody gotten a hold of ray? no, we are trying to figure out who ray is. ray was a colleague of diane s at ibm. he seemed to worship the ground she walks on. he seems to be attracted to women that are not attracted to him. honestly, if i was if i was a woman, i would he would be giving me the creeps. and according to dennis, he and diane were not on good terms. now, they had a falling out about a month or so ago. don t know the exact nature of it. so, time for a talk with ray. coming up. a coworker, with a crush, but did he want something more? i was always very spoiled to her, and very affectionate to her. when dateline continues. i asked my doctor about treating my td, and learned about ingrezza. ingrezza ingrezza is clinically proven for reducing td. most people saw results in just two weeks. people taking ingrezza can stay on most mental health meds. only number-one prescribed ingrezza has simple dosing for td: always one pill, once daily. ingrezza can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington s disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings, or have thoughts of suicide. don t take ingrezza if you re allergic to its ingredients. ingrezza may cause serious side effects, including angioedema, potential heart rhythm problems, and abnormal movements. report fevers, stiff muscles, or problems thinking as these may be life threatening. sleepiness is the most common side effect. take control by asking your doctor about ingrezza. ingrezza everybody wants super straight, super white teeth. they want that hollywood white smile. new sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it s a great product. it s going to help a lot of patients. i ll be honest. by the end of the day, my floors.yeesh. but who has the time to clean? that s why i love my swiffer wetjet. it s a quick and easy way to get my floors clean. wetjet absorbs and locks grime deep inside. look at that! swiffer wetjet. i am just collate in with the hour s top stories. the united nations is answering adding israel and hamas to its military forces harming children amid military conflict. the news comes as israel faces new criticism for an airstrike in central gaza that killed dozens of people at a u.n. displacing palestinians. and president biden spoke of the need to protect democracy while fighting dictators and hateful ideology, as he honor the sacrifices of soldiers 80 years ago on the beaches of normandy. now, back to dateline. suspicion. there was lots of it to go around after diane holik was choked to death in her own guest bedroom. at least one of diane s friends directed her suspicion at dennis. the man who said he was her fiance, but was he anymore. dennis swore it wasn t him, but maybe he was suspicious too. what about this guy? he asked? what about ray. there was a man that she worked with, by the name of rafael chauncey, and she had actually hired him at ibm, so she was kind of his boss. maybe more than his boss? here s what diane s friends told the police about ray. he was johnny on the spot every time she needed something. he always called ray and ray was there. honestly in my heart i believe that he truly loved her and would have varied her. if she would have him? yeah. if she would have him. it seemed off to dennis. s relationship with diane he told the police, it was a little too cozy, obsessive maybe? he always felt like maybe ray kind of took a liking to her was very infatuated with her, and he would always offer to take care of her dogs when she was out of town. always wanted to be kind of close to her. so, he thought maybe that he had too much of an interest in diane. what s more, ray had his own personal key to diane the house and remember, there was no forced entry. the killer was either invited and or had a key. so, detective gerrish asked ray to come into the station and answer a few questions, except it was ray who seems to be full of questions. working on it. unfortunately i don t know anything about diane holick when until i went to her house last night. he seemed excited to share what he knew. how long have you known diane? two years. he was an odd character, eager to help us, almost too i eager, to the point where throw us off a little bit. my group, my payment to her was not to always take care of her dogs. in two years she didn t have a dog sitter, i even change my schedule so i could walk her dogs. he told you a lot didn t he? man, i can t believe it. i always had a crush on diane, since i was younger. to diane reciprocate your feelings? no. did that ever cause problems to you? no. in the beginning argument that stuff? no, in the beginning we have some i was always very spoil- ey to her, very affectionate, she didn t like it. they played good cup, that cop. another detective came in, frustrated. no sexual relationships? you want to? i always wanted to, but never did. know, it was a little bit more formal than that i guess. you never had a sexual relationship? no. never. so, your dna shouldn t be found on her? you are not giving it to us? if you wanted. ray agreed, he did have a key to her house, but he also had an alibi, he was at work the day diane was murdered. i had the badge. there s cameras all over the place too at work. you can ask for the records. that day, ray said he stayed late at work and then drove home through the terrible traffic created by the storm. and after that, stayed home. stayed home and didn t go anywhere. back to work this morning at 8:00, 8:00. of course they needed to verify all of that. but when they asked ray about dennis, the fiance? that is a loaded question. it is and. i mean, i want the truth. there were some problems or whatever? they were going to get married this november. clearly diane had complicated relationships with dennis and ray. so, just as they had done with dennis, police fingerprinted ray and took a dna swab and went on looking. sharon told the detectives done had a date with the man and they couldn t figure out who that man was, but they tracked down every man she had met from the dating service. i interviewed every single day she had through that service. too many options. police wondered, has diane been strangled by a man she had met through the dating service? or a man she knew well? even left? and yes, something seems to be missing, but what? this wasn t going to be easy. coming up, a funeral and a wedding, and what some say was a former fiance s extremely strange behavior. oh god, we did a morbid thing. i mean beyond belief. and finally a clue. was this one of his stakes? when dateline continues. first and only nasal spray for dry eye. tyrvaya treats the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease fast by helping your body produce its own real tears. common side effects include sneezing, cough, and throat and nose irritation. relying only on drops? not me. my own real tears are my relief. ask your eye doctor about tyrvaya. that is an affluent neighborhood. it s not normally where you find murder victims. narrator: darla davis was worried. that is an affluent neighborhood, it is not normally where you would find murder victims. tyler davis was worried. diane s ball body was there barely cold. prosecutors jump on the case and encountered a problem. the fact that she lived by herself. there were many wanted to change that single status and there was certainly reason to look at them carefully. but the prosecutor worried too. about another possibility. we might have a stranger on stranger offense, which is way harder to solve. so, essentially a dead body, not much evidence? right. no idea who did it. exactly, and i had an idea that we would have the crime scene. that meant she had investigators went back to diane s house to take a look. and went over it with the alternate light source. we have to do it in the dark. we just take it and put it in carpeting or on any kind of fabric or anything. and certain things will fluoresce. for example, if there is blood. the alternate light search source we are looking for. it didn t look like diane had been sexually assaulted. but they had to know for sure. and when they tested? there were no indications that there was any semen anywhere. and that room are different parts of the house. nothing. no semen, no blood, no evidence of sexual assault. and apart from her missing engagement, nothing in diane s house seemed out of place. except, in the middle of the otherwise brisk living room. there, on the loveseat is this tower just thrown open. weird. it was definitely out of place. maybe it was left behind by the killer? was this one of the mistakes? there were hairs later on. her hairs? no. there were seven hairs on that terrible. they sent the hairs to the dna lab. her friends plan the excruciating details for diane s memorial service here in austin. sharon found the funeral home and the lady to do the makeup and everything. we went in with them and help them pick out a casket and all. and her dress for an open casket. i need to make sure that whatever we got looks right and covered the appropriate parts of her. seeing where the wounds were, seeing where the ligature marks were, probably just as difficult as the day i found out that she passed. dennis came to the service, as expected, but he tended to not speak with anybody, which i found somewhat strange for a man, who was so in love with diane. front and center? no, he did not sit front and center, which somewhat surprised me. watched through a haze of grief and suspicion. when diane s parents moved her body from austin to their home in new york for the funeral, diane s friends as was dennis. and as diane lee in her open casket something very strange happened. oh god. he did a morbid thing that just infuriated her parents. i mean, beyond belief. dennis had brought a minister with him to the funeral. to actually say the marriage vows to him, as she was laying in the coffin. and then took her hand and put that gold band on. i thought mom was going to come unglued. diane s parents removed the ring, said a friend. but, the diane s family was appalled and her friends were deeply suspicious, back in austin, investigators were looking at all kinds of possibilities. dennis, ray, and other men diane had left remained on the list of statements, their alibis checked and rechecked. and the first time love. but that murder prosecutors talked about, was that really what happened? was the killer some random predator? is not a great feeling to know that you are going to have to expand out into the possibilities that this was somebody who was a stranger to her. because that makes it so much harder. that second, more intense search of the crime scene detectives found the first time, including this killer, where the lover has been careful and clearly prepared for what he, or she was going to do. this person, who is trying to avoid being captured. yes, so he cut the zip tie off of her and took the zip tie with him. and thus removed the evidence, but there was this one other thing, just a passing comment. they heard it from anita, on the phone with diane. she said that she had somebody that had come by earlier and had looked at the house, was very impressed with it. i said that is good. she says, yeah. i might finally sell this thing. good that visitor be connected to diane s murder somehow? or that discarded what towel? with those seven tiny strands of hair. coming up, a stranger knocking on doors. what happened next. i felt i had dodged a bullet. he wanted to get me in there and i didn t budge. i stood there with all of the bells going off. when dateline continues. ne this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks and could make it hard to be there for your loved ones. shingles could also lead to serious complications that can last for years. if you re over 50, the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside you. and as you age, your risk of developing shingles increases. don t wait. ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles today. (ethan) i smoked and have had multiple strokes. now, it s hard for me to remember things. my tip is, if you need to remember something, write it down quickly. (announcer) you can quit. call 1-800-quit-now for help getting free medication. some people just know that the best rate for you is a rate based on you, with allstate. because there are people out there who aren t you. a lot of them. and you don t drive like. whoa. i don t want my child being raised by a robot! other drivers are not you. yes, thank you so much to all 50 of my subscribers. nope, definitely not you. save with drivewise and get a rate based on you. you re in good hands with allstate. looking for a smarter way to mop? try the swiffer powermop. an all-in-one cleaning tool, with a 360-degree swivel head that goes places a regular mop just can t. mop smarter with the swiffer powermop. feeling claritin clear is like. [cat meow] is she? letting her imagination run wild even though she has allergies. yeah. her uncle s unhappy. i m sensing an underlying issue. it s t-mobile. it started when we tried to get him under a new plan. but they they unexpectedly unraveled their “price lock” guarantee. which has made him, a bit. unruly. you called yourself the “un-carrier”. you sing about “price lock” on those commercials. “the price lock, the price lock.” so, if you could change the price, change the name! it s not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that s uncalled for. the detectives investigating the death of diane holik were all too aware that stranger killings are among the hardest to solve. at the point when you were driving around talking to people here, did you have any idea what you were looking for even? no, nothing. narrator: especially if that stranger is as careful as diane s killer appeared to have been. i mean, it was true whodunit. narrator: the medical examiner looked carefully for evidence of sexual assault, semen, the killer s saliva, dna under her fingernails, that sort of thing. and there was none, none at all. though, police 101, maybe one of the neighbors saw something or someone suspicious. and sure enough, not one, but several neighbors had seen a stranger, a potential homebuyer, who was a welcomed visitor, frankly, in the difficult housing market that year. they all agreed he was tall, had dark slicked back hair, and a big nose, and that he said he wanted to pay cash for a nice house. so was he the man who toured diane s house day of the storm? you always try to find the last person that saw sure. the victim alive. and we thought, well, this man could be the last person to see her alive. narrator: who was this phantom homebuyer? interviewer: did anybody get a name? we did get one name, walter miller and a number. narrator: walter miller? of course, they looked up the walter miller s around austin and found two of them. neither one fit that description, though. and the phone number the man left course they looked up to walterg miller around austin and found two of them. neither one fit that description though. and the phone number the man left? it ended up being a fax machine. it ended up belonging to the wife of a guy, by the name of matthew supolsky. matthew supolsky. what with you? he had a background involving a drug addiction, the muscles, a restraining order against him. and we eventually tracked on matthew and they realized right away he could not be the killer. he was in a neck brace, he had been in a bad accident, he had paralysis on his arms, so we knew it couldn t be in. meeting, this visitor, whoever he was, left a fake name and a big phone number. who would do that? then they found another neighbor, who had talked to the guy, heard his story, got a good enough look at him to help with a composite sketch. and we aired it on the 10:00 news. boston police have asked for help in solving a murder. police questioned a man seen in the day before that murder. they described his wife between the ages of 35-45, he s about six feet tall and neatly dressed. and we were hoping to get tips. what you know? before long women started calling. tales about a man who wanted to buy a house. so, what were you hearing from people who may have had a visitor? was at the same story they were hearing? pretty much. yeah, they were getting the story about this guy that sold his ranch in south boston he and his wife are looking to do this quick in the physical description were all the same. some colors, like tammy, had curious details. he had on brand-new gene that were probably three sizes too long. it was the kind of strange thing you remember said agent, tammy. he had on a shirt, a striped shirt that had wrinkles in it. i mean, pulls. just came out of the box? he just bought clothes, i m sure of it. he had suspenders on, which i m sure nobody wears suspenders and it wasn t like his pants are falling off. but it is when she showed him into the house that her nerves went on alert. he said oh, after you, after you. it was a standoff at the bottom of the stairs, wouldn t go. my stomach is tight. tammy was where a. years earlier, she had been raped by a customer. i knew all my instincts, all that i have learned and been through were the reason i was nervous about him. he said his name was jim sage. he kept trying to get her into upstairs rooms. he wanted to get me in there, and i didn t budge, i stood there and all the bells were going off. the next day tammy called the police to report this jim sage. did he hurt you, did he threaten you? did he put his hands on you and i had to say no to all of that. he said i m sorry, there s nothing we can do. but now, diane had been murdered, strangled, tammy remembered the man s odd suspenders use them on diane pop holick s neck. when did that hit you? after. after i found out she was strangled. the calls kept coming in. women, with stories of a strange man posing as a homebuyer, some truly hair- raising stories. like what happened to x real estate agent melanie blunt, six months before diane was murdered. a man had called about one of her houses. it was a vacant listing, and i asked him if he had been prequalified by a lender, and i am paying cash, and so i drove over to meet him at the house or go to the door to greet him. and immediately he was behind me. he would never walk in front of me. which made melody uncomfortable. especially because he only wanted to see vacant houses, and the whole time that i was showing him the home he was never looking at any room. he seems to be more interested in looking out windows than he did the actual room. she said something else seemed off about him. he has a ticket in his neck, constantly cracking, and popping his neck and breathing very heavy. melody wanted to leave, but then the man noticed the detached garage. he was adamant about getting in the garage. he said i really want to see inside the garage. he started that neck popping. her hand shook as she tried to work the key in the door. it didn t open. i just turned to him said i m leaving, jumped in my car. locked the car and took off and i left him. she drove home, still shaken. i have never cried, nor prayed so hard in my whole life , because i felt i had dodged a bullet. melody called the police too. got the same message as tammy. they did not believe me. did he touch you? did he hurt you? no, he did not. when she saw the story about diane and the sketch? i looked at it, and immediately knew that it was the same man. well, the police and prosecutor investigating diane s murder were working every angle they could think of. we were just coming up zero. he knew what he or she was doing and very careful. that was the impression we were getting, and that is what was increasing our anxiety. so, they waited for dna results from those tiny hairs found on the towel in diane s living room. and they listened to the women who called to tell them about being frightened by a mysterious would be homebuyer. who was he? and then one more call and they knew this could be their breakthrough. she said that she had seen the news and she thinks that that man had come to her house and she possibly had a flyer that he had handled that he had left behind. we were really excited about that. which meant that, maybe there might be fingerprinted. did she say this thing? she did it by accident. she didn t just throw it away? no, she actually picked it up and put it in a sack. a story by this time sounded all too familiar. she was excited to sell her house. she was going to pay cash, wanted to bring his wife back to look at the house and he asked her if she could look around. so, she kind of followed him into one of the bedrooms and when he got to the closet he turned around on her and she said there was this awkward silence and he just stared at her, she just became so uncomfortable she thought something bad was going to happen. and just then, in a nearby room, the woman s baby cried. and it gave her the opportunity to break the encounter with him to grab the baby and he followed her into the room and was standing behind her, when she turned around with the baby in her arms and it must have spooked him. and he just left? leaving behind the flyer? leaving behind the flyer. so they picked up the real estate flyer and brought in a latent fingerprint those prints might just belong to their killer. remember, they found no prints in diane s house to compare them to. in fact, this was strange. even diane s (hard to find. as if the killer may have wipe them clean. it was really not even the fingerprints that you would think you would find in a house that was occupied. that is very rare. yes, it was very rare and scary. scary because they wouldn t know who he was. scary because if he was a stranger just looking for a convenience target he had probably seen the stories on tv with a composite sketch and knew they were looking for. so he could have changed his appearance or left the area, or even worse, my strike again somewhere else. but then? there was this one more phone call from a woman, who said she too had an experience with a male homebuyer and this call just might lead them to an actual person. coming up. she immediately got a creepy feeling from him. the brick detectives had been waiting for. she actually wrote down his license plate and called police. when dateline continues. co keith morrison (voiceover): the idea that the murder of diane holik had something to do with her attempt to sell her house the idea that me tthe murde diane holik had something to do with her attempt to sell her house was gaining some traction. even the friend who remained so suspicious of diane s fiance wondered about that. i had a fleeting moment that maybe it was somebody dealing with the realty and selling of the house because there were quite a few people that came in. i thought maybe a husband found her attractive, you know? made a move and she didn t go for it. calls were pouring in to the police station from women who all shared a similar story. they described a man who claimed to be in the market for a new home but seemed to be shopping for something more sinister? one woman provided police with the mystery man s fingerprint. detectives thought the crime scene had been wiped clean so there was no way to match it back. there was a new caller and she was about to give them more. and she basically had told us that months earlier that this man with the same story had come to her home but in a different neighborhood. but very affluent so it kind of matched. he was insistent about wanting to go in and see that house. and she immediately got a creepy feeling from him and told him no and her husband said well if he ever comes back you need to call the police or get his license plate because it really scared her. and about six months later he came back and was very insistent on going in to see her house and she told him no she was not going to allow him to come in. and so she called the police. nothing happened then. the reaction she got was like those other women. the police could hardly arrest some guy for just seeming creepy. but this woman did something different. she wrote down the name and phone number the man gave her but more important his license plate number. stuck it on her fridge. instinct? luck? maybe both. she didn t know if he would come back again. she thought it was concerning enough that she would just leave it on her refrigerator just in case and she gave us the original piece of paper she wrote his license plate down with. and. well we immediately ran his license plate and it was a minivan and it was registered to patrick russo and his wife janet russo. patrick russo. his last known address was in a rural area about a half hour outside austin. so they decided to pay a visit. it s a pretty drive to bastrop county. the live oaks, the cypress trees. at 4:00 a.m. the detectives weren t exactly taking in the view as they drove to russo s home. hoping this is a lead that could shed some light on the murder of diane holik. all they had were stories about a creepy guy looking at houses for sale. was patrick anthony russo that guy? maybe, maybe not. dawn was hours away when they knocked at his door. the man who woke up to answer it looked like the composite sketch. coming up. patrick russo seemed an unlikely killer. i ve got my ged. i went to college. i studied for theology to become a minister. but an odd coincidence. he was in diane s area the day she was kills. you remember ever talking to her? when dateline continues. dat (amanda) my name is amanda, and i smoked while i was pregnant. this is the view i had of my baby in the nicu. my tip is: speak into the opening so your baby can hear you better. (announcer) you can quit. call 1-800-quit-now for help getting free medication. shingles. the rash can feel like an intense burning sensation that can last for weeks. shingles could disrupt work and time with family. over 50? the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. don t wait. ask your doctor about shingles today. head & shoulders bare clinically proven dandruff protection with just 9 essential ingredients no sulfates, no silicones, no dyes. dandruff protection, minimal ingredients. job done. if you spit blood when you brush, it could be the start of a domino effect. new parodontax active gum repair breath freshener. clinically proven to help reverse the four signs of early gum disease. a new toothpaste from parodontax, the gum experts. hi, i m michael, i ve lost 62 pounds on golo and i have kept it off. a new toothpaste from most of the weight that i gained was strictly in my belly which is a sign of insulin resistance. but since golo, that weight has completely gone away, as you can tell. thanks to golo and release, i ve got my life and my health back. scout is protected by simparica trio and he s in it to win it! simparica trio is the first chew with triple protection. whoa fleas! and ticks! ( ) intestinal worms! whoa! heartworm disease! no problem with simparica trio! this drug class has been associated with neurologic adverse reactions including seizures. use with caution in dogs with a history of these disorders. for winning protection go with simparica trio. craig here pays too much for verizon wireless. so he sublet half his real estate office. use with caution in dogs with a history of these disorders. [ bird squawks loudly ] to a pet shop. meg s moving company uses t-mobile. so she scaled down her fleet to save money. and don s paying so much for at&t, he s been waiting to update his equipment! there s a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don t have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. keith morrison retrack: a torrent of tips called in to austin police led detectives tracy a tore rent in to austin police led to detectives to the doorstep of patrick russo. a man matching the description of the mysterious stranger seen in diane holik s neighborhood the day of the murder. we told him his name had come up in an investigation in austin and he basically just told his wife that these things will happen from time to time because he s a convict and out on parole and not to worry that he d be back in a couple of hours and we left. on the ride to the police station he went by his nickname, tony. he wasn t surprised they wanted to talk to him. things go wrong in your town or something, it s a possibility people would look at you. and that s okay. i understand that. he seemed eager to help and wanted detectives to know he d turned his life around when he was in prison. i spent my entire eight years in prison doing nothing but engulfing myself in a better life. i got my ged. i went to college. i studied for theology to become a minister. it was behind bars where tony met his wife janet. she a church volunteer. since his release, he said, he d published an autobiography about his tough childhood, his battle with drugs and his redemption. i have a ministry they go into prisons with. i go to churches and share testimony with them on how they can deal with, you know, youth or whatever that are headed in the wrong direction. at his local church he said he d become the minister of music. what is your job at the church where they pay you for? my job is to make sure that the music for the praise team or any kind of music that s being done for church services is handled, whether i play it or have someone play it. and in his spare time? he fronted a christian rock band. what s the name of your band? it s broken silence. broken silence. that s a good name. again, said tony russo. he was more than willing to cooperate with the investigation. i will be happy to do of what you guys need. so i don t have any problem with it at all. so they asked him, where was he when diane was murdered. did he have an alibi? thursday? um, that was that big storm day, wasn t it? thursday, i spent some time at the church again. i went to go to knle here in austin. knle is a christian radio station. tony said they were helping him create a website for his christian rock band. okay. about what time was that? uh, i think it was about. let see, i talked to my wife. i was pulling into the parking lot so that would have been about 4:00, i believe. when no one came to the door i went ahead and left. so you made the trip up there for nothing basically? pretty much. then of course he got caught in that awful storm. i got lost for probably a good hour or so. i got on the phone with my wife. she stayed on the phone with me. it started getting later. that s when the heavy winds started coming and the tornadoes, i guess. so what time did you get home finally? um, my wife s better at the timing on this than i am. 5:30, i guess or 6:00? i m not really sure exactly the time frame. thing was, diane s house where she was killed was not far from the radio station. you remember ever talking to her? no, sir. tony was adamant he d never seen diane. you never talked to her? no. interesting. then detectives asked, had he been doing some house hunting? is there any reason why you d be in a neighborhood looking for a house? no. none whatsoever? uh-huh. of course they knew a thing or two about that. so the detectives leaned on him a little. do you want me to tell you how serious this is? i would appreciate it. i feel like i m getting pretty banged here and i don t even know what it s for. she s dead. i don t know if you noticed when you walked in here, this is the homicide unit. i ve done a lot things wrong in my life. i m telling you that as badly as i feel for this woman here, i m sorry, but you guys are barking up the wrong tree. go ahead, he said. search my house. my car. he even offered to take a polygraph. i don t care how hard you dig, you re not going to find me committing any crime like that. any crime, period. tony s wife janet was very helpful too. and her story about that day was just about the same as his. yeah, i was telling him where the tornadoes were. he doesn t know his way around austin all that well. next thing he knew he d circled back around going west because he was he said well there s candle again. candle is the nickname for knle the christian radio station. when the interviews ended tony asked to see janet. i promise you i never did anything to anybody. i promise. and all i think about is how this affects you and our church and everything we worked so hard for. i know. tony and janet russo had answered all their questions. had been cooperative. and tony even gave them a swab of his dna and his fingerprints. so the police thanked him and took them home. coming up. the interview part two. this one a little tougher. is there any reason why somebody might have seen your van over there? surely i don t have the only pewter ford minivan in this entire town. you have the only pewter ford minivan that has that license plate on it. that is true. when dateline continues. ne started disrupting my day. td felt embarrassing. i felt like disconnecting. i asked my doctor about treating my td, and learned about ingrezza. ingrezza ingrezza is clinically proven for reducing td. most people saw results in just two weeks. people taking ingrezza can stay on most mental health meds. only number-one prescribed ingrezza has simple dosing for td: always one pill, once daily. ingrezza can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington s disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings, or have thoughts of suicide. don t take ingrezza if you re allergic to its ingredients. ingrezza may cause serious side effects, including angioedema, potential heart rhythm problems, and abnormal movements. report fevers, stiff muscles, or problems thinking as these may be life threatening. sleepiness is the most common side effect. take control by asking your doctor about ingrezza. ingrezza it s hard to run a business on your own. make it easier on yourself. with shopify, you can have your inventory, payments, and customers in sync across all the places you sell. start your journey with a free trial today. hi, i m jason. i ve lost 228 pounds on golo. changing your habits is the only way that gets you to lose the weight. and golo is the plan that s going to help you do that. just take the first step, go to golo.com. if you re one of the millions of people with diabetes who suffer from low and high blood sugar, dexcom g7 is one of the easiest ways to take better control of your diabetes. my blood sugar would suddenly spike or really go low out of nowhere. it was really scary. (dr. swamy) this small wearable alerts you 20 minutes before you go too low or when you re high so you can take action in the moment. now we re talking a game changer! i m back in control! (announcer) dexcom g7 helps protect against highs and lows. call now! hi, i m jason. i ve lost 228 pounds on golo. i don t ever want to go back to wearing a 4xl shirt or not being able to climb up stairs without taking a break. so i m committed to golo for life. after police interviewed tony russo and his wife, they brought him back in. the day e.after police interviewed tony russo and his wife they brought him back in. again he was cooperative. said he was surprised to be a suspect in of all things a murder. two years i ve done everything i can to make the best life for my family and myself. being caught up in this whole thing is such a mind boggler that i feel like i m in a nightmare state right now. bits of information and the women s stories about a creepy man who looked a lot like him were stacking up. detectives asked him about the upscale neighborhoods where several women had reported seeing him. often driving his minivan. is there any reason why somebody might have seen your minivan over there? surely i don t have the only pewter ford minivan in this town. that has that license plate on it. that s true. that is true. by the time the detectives interviewed tony they d checked for priors and guess what. that conviction the one he was on parole for was for kidnapping with a very particular twist. he had gone into an office where a woman was alone and tied her up with zip ties and choked her. did not kill her but choked her. disturbingly familiar given what happened to diane holik. back then a decade before diane s murder tony confessed to kidnapping and was sentenced to 20 years in prison. it was there he met and married janet and soon after was paroled after serving only one- third of his sentence. but the kidnapping charge wasn t all they found at tony s record. even earlier, years earlier, there it was her. it had actually been a quiet day. donna shank encountered tony when she was an apartment manager. all alone late one afternoon in her building rental office when a man walked in. he wanted to look at a two bedroom apartment for his self and his girlfriend, he says. donna showed him an available apartment. we re walking down the hallway. we get back to what would be the master bedroom so i open the closet door and went into the closet to turn the light on and in a split second he had me by the throat. she struck out at him. tried scratching and slapping him in an effort to get away. he took her down. before i knew it i was on the floor. i was on the floor face up and he was straddling me with both of his hands around my throat just squeezing. tight. very tight. i wasn t able to speak. i wasn t able to breathe. i was thrashing and. grabbing at him and things. bucking, you know, everything i could do. until he grabbed my hands and panned them i guess under his knees. i couldn t move my hands. it just, you know, dawned on me okay well this is it. is this absolute terror? it is absolute terror to where your life flashes before your eyes and. you think i m going to die. and this is it. then she thought no, this would not be it and she thrashed about until she was able to free her hands. and i put my hands on his forearms trying to pull him away. i had sort of a high neck sweater on and he kept pulling my sweater down to look at my neck and his eyes are very different, very scary. it was completely different. it was like flipping a switch. it was a very scary crazed look. then donna in a panic said all she could think of saying. i ve been gone too long, they know what apartment i m in, they will come looking for me and he would say you re lying don t lie to me you better not be lying to me and would call me profanities and would strike me. he s still holding on to you, your throat. yes. but he seemed to realize yes, there was a possibility somebody would be coming to look for her and as quickly as he had become a monster. his expression changed again and his eyes went softer. then he completely took his hands off of me and just went like this and just covered his face and then sat back up and he said i can t believe i did this. are you okay? like he s a different person now. yes. to the point that he was apologizing profusely for doing it, asked me if i was hurt. asked me if i was okay. helped me up off of the the floor. helped me collect my necklace that was torn off and thrown about. he begged donna not to call the police, but she did. and he confessed. he was convicted of misdemeanor assault. and was put on probation. but as the years went by, he had attacked five other women in similar ways. including his kidnapping victim. now he s being questioned about a murder involving zip ties and choking and was denying he knew anything about it. saying the similarities with earlier incidents were merely coincidence. it s disgusting to sit here and listen to you talk about being such a devout christian and forgiveness and how much you ve turned your life around when this one coincidence after another this whole thing goes back to similarities that i m sure coincidental back in 1989, 1990, 91, 92. but you re this reborn christian? and you re going to sit here and lie about it? but the truth was at that point police could only prove patterns of behavior. patterns tony insisted he broke when he became a born-again christian. but really? so the detectives set up a little trap and asked him if his fingerprints could possibly be found on a real estate flier. have you ever handled aureoles flier for a house for sale in west austin. no. then your fingerprints shouldn t be on there. correct. but even as tony insisted otherwise they already had received the test results from the real estate flier saved by that woman. thank you lord tony russo s fingerprints were positively on that flier. what happens in the old gut when that? we knew it was him. we just weren t able to put him anywhere and now we had him. true, they had him recently in the home of a woman who d been terrified by his behavior. but they didn t have him in diane holik s house. to get that evidence they needed time and they worried would he run? then the prosecutor had a canny idea. when tony russo said he didn t touch the real estate flier, that was a lie. and lying to the police was a parole violation. so the da s office came up with this charge that allowed us the time we needed to send off all the dna and physical evidence to see if it we could actually put him at her house. bring your right hand back. so into jail went tony russo. coming up. there were five guys standing like a theater setting. show time. with a script. as his victims come face to face with tony russo. repeat the following phrase. do you have any information about the floor plan of the house? do you have any information about the familiar plan of the house? i did not expect him to be right in front of me. so that was extremely frightening. when dateline continues. i m out of breath, and often out of the picture. but this is my story. 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[ cellphone ringing ] phone call from the boss? sorry. to make clothes softer, outdoor time is me time. i hear that. that s why we protect all your vehicles here. but hey.nothing wrong with sticking it to the boss. ooooh, flo, you gonna take that? why would that concern me? because you re.the. aren t you the..? huh.we never actually discussed hierarchy. ok, why don t we just stick to letting dave know how much he can save when he bundles his home or auto with his boat or rv. wait, i thought jamie was the boss. 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we had so many women that had let him into their homes in different neighborhoods all over austin, south austin, north austin, even real estate agents that he had called when he wanted to look at vacant houses. but could any of those women actually identify tony russo as their guy? we felt like we needed to do a live lineup because the phrasing and his ruse that he used was so specific and the women remembered his voice and they remembered his story. so they rounded up some austin police officers who looked like tony and put him and them in a lineup. and brought the women in. and there were five guys standing like on a theater setting. number one, take one step forward. couple of feet above me and we re down below. number two, repeat the following phrase. you have a beautiful house. you have a beautiful house. we had a script that each person had to step forward and exactly repeat what the detective was telling them to say. i m going to pay cash for a house. i m going to pay cash for a house. it was everything that was said to each one of these women when he went into their homes. i came to this house before, didn t i? i came to this house before, didn t i? repeat the following phrase. do you have any information about the floor plan of the house? do you have any information about the floor plan of the house? he was number one right in front of me. i did not expect him to be right in front of me. so that it was extremely frightening. i picked him out of a lineup immediately. i was feeling a lot of guilt. i don t know why. you just feel what could i have done? somebody s dead and this man was with me. how many of those witnesses picked out the right guy? i believe it was 15 women. out of the total of how many? i think it was 30. eyewitness testimony is notoriously not great and often doesn t carry much weight in a trial so you needed something more. yes. what they needed was something definitive to put tony russo in diane holik s house. they d sent off dna samples from diane s finger where her ring had been yanked off and from that towel on her couch. finally the results. what did the dna tell you? the swab on her hand was a mixture that was consistent with a combination of diane holik and russo. was it enough to say for sure though because dna. no. no, no, no. we can t exclude him. it s consistent with him. but it s not the kind of dna that you can eliminate the rest of the world. right. just really increased suspicion is all. it was helpful. it was dez positive. we sent the hair off to a lab and they did a may toe conacre dry corral dna test. we could not exclude mr. russo. but you couldn t say for sure. no. so close. just not quite the absolute proof they d been hoping for. but the dna did provide one very helpful service. police had confirmed the alibis of diane s fiance dennis and her ibm friend ray. these tests definitively eliminated them as suspects. but we could not eliminate mr. russo. finally six months after diane s death, tony russo was charged with murder. the risk? maybe. they d only get one shot. and the evidence they were going to take to court did not absolutely link him to the murder of diane holik. then the trial was almost upon us. they found something. something almost beyond belief. in my wildest dreams i never imagined that a website like this could even exist. coming up. the dark side to the web. and tony russo. you certainly had your motive. yes, we did. when dateline continues. ths what hd to me. 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not so easy. it was the most complex murder case definitely the most complex murder case i ve ever tried. that s because without hard evidence linking tony to the murder or even putting him in diane s house she d have to assemble all the jagged puzzle pieces of coincidence into a coherent pattern. when you re getting ready for trial you put it together almost like a play. what are you going to tell them first so you script it out. there were the zip ties on his property that seemed to match marks on diane s wrists. his cell phone pinged near her house. the radio station alibi was a lie. the dna, though it wasn t absolutely definitive, could not eliminate him. and all those women that identify him as that creepy guy claiming he wanted to buy a house with cash. cash which he certainly did not have. but then. he really wasn t looking for houses he was looking for victims. like realtor melody blount who cried and prayed after her encounter she found it so terrifying to testify. but did. i did not expect for patrick anthony russo to be sitting across from me within 10 to 12 feet and having to testify with that man looking at me, it was petri fying. and most unsettling when she noticed something all too familiar. now i m glaring at russo and what does he do? he starts that tick in his neck. starts that popping and i raised my hand up and i said there he goes. he s doing it right now. the state also called tony russo s victims from earlier years. including donna the young apartment manager he attacked in lake jackson, texas. this phone call just out of the blue after all of that time. she was not only surprised, she was angry. very angry. why did that have to a. why did someone have to be killed before this man was stopped? and the emotions of that whole ugly ordeal flooded right back. my heart started racing. it was just being terrified all over again. but some of the compelling evidence came courtesy of tony s first wife. as he d been married once before. the first wife said he could not get aroused sexually unless he was choking her and that he choked her when they had sex. and the second wife? the second wife confirmed he also choked her while they had sex. i mean i will say that he does tend to put his hand on my neck. any time i feel like my airway s getting restricted, you know, and he s, he always lets go. so a strange and potentially dangerous fetish but was that all it was? isn t it possible though that he really didn t want to kill diane holik? that s just my belief that he did. that just choking and not killing it was no longer enough. it wasn t enough any more. and why was she so sure? because of what turned up during a forensic analysis of tony russo s computer. the i.t. people landed on it just as the trial was about to begin. disturbing is perhaps too bland a word to describe what was in there. he was a member of a website one that you had to pay money to see. it s described as tastefully erotic death scenes and mr. russo had chosen the subcategory of asphyxiation. omg. uh-huh. in my wildest dreams i never imagined a website like this could even exist or that anybody would want to look at it. you certainly had your motive. yes, we did. it s called sexual sadism. he felt a compulsion to go and choke people. yes. he was sexually aroused by women being choked. oh boy. that gets into pretty dark territory. yes. they nailed him big time. diane s friend anita was in the courtroom as the state rested and she waited to hear tony s defense. we were all thinking okay, well, here we go. we re really going to hear a whole bunch of stuff. the room was packed solid with people. so his attorney just stood up and said defense rests. there was like a huge gasp in the room and then totally silent. diane s friend lynn arrived just in time to hear the closing argument. he stood quiet for a minute and walked over to the jury and he looked them all in the face. he said i need you to understand what happened to her that night. he put his hands up in the air like this and he put his thumbs down and he shook his hands like this as do though he was choking someone. he said, imagine. it took her two and a half, maybe even three minutes for her to die. as he s holding on to her. yeah. stood there and he looked at his watch and just waited. and for at least two and a half minutes nothing moved in that courtroom. and it was silent and he held that position with shaking hands until enough time had passed that a person would have died from being choked. and all of a sudden slams his hand down on the table. i mean, that s how long it took for her to die. and the whole courtroom just, i mean we all broke down at that point. to think that s how long it took for her to die. how long she suffered. the defense, which did not call a single witness made the case in its closing argument for all the drama the state, they said, failed to prove, because it couldn t prove, that tony russo was ever in diane holik s home. couldn t prove he killed her. tony did not testify. but he did talk to us. coming up. the verdict. when the jury walked back in to the jury box i can t even look at them. when dateline continues. lin the virus that causes shingles is sleeping. in 99% of people over 50. it s lying dormant, waiting. and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you re not at risk for shingles? 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oh, we know. we just like making a scene. transferring your services has never been easier. get connected on the day of your move with the xfinity app. can i sleep over at your new place? can katie sleep over tonight? sure, honey! this generation is so dramatic! move with xfinity. davis had put everything she had into the case against tony russo. darla davis nohad t put everything she had into the case against tony russo. when, not if, will the sexually sadistic psychopathic predator strike again. she believed he was a dangerous man who should never be set loose to victimize another woman. her circumstantial case was powerful, overwhelming. but nothing, not even the tiny bits of recovered dna could absolutely prove beyond all doubt that tony russo killed diane holik. so prosecutors, investigators, friends and family were anything but calm as the hours passed. they waited for the jury. then after 11 hours. when the jury walks back in to the jury box i can t even look at them even now. i just looked down at the table and i wait for the judge to read. then. we the jury find the defendant patrick anthony russo guilty of the offense of capital murder. it was great. we really worked for this one. so they did. and won a case which remains as relevant a cautionary tale as it did in 2004 when the jury pronounced its verdict. seller beware. that was quite eye opening. the effect on not only her friends but the community as a whole and the real estate business. people need to see this and be aware so maybe this will stop that from happening. and tony russo? his hair has gone silver now. he s in prison for life. and here one friday morning he brought his bible to the barrier that separates his world from ours. his holy staff of assurance that what he was about to tell us about his role in the murder of diane holik would be god s truth. that jury comes back and says guilty, what s that like? devastating. when you re innocent, it s devastating. innocent? yes. and so i hear from the warden that you got your bachelors in divinity. yes, sir. if i had to spend the rest of my life in here i want to use it for christ. throughout our talk he wore his christianity like a badge and like an accusation. i noticed that in the media they love to sensationalize any christians or people that claim to be christians that somehow they just they ve got it, there s some hidden secrets in their life. but your victims were christians too. saying you re a christian and being a christian are two different things. in other words you have to be totally honest? i don t think you have to be totally honest but i think there s things in your life that you ll exhibit whether christ is in your life or not. the evidence against him? he had answers for everything. like why he lied to the police when he said he wasn t looking at houses when in fact he was. i did deny in the interview because i felt like i was going to incriminate myself in the original interrogation. i did, however, share with my attorneys what had been going on. which was, he said, perfectly innocent research. looking at the different designs and things. for a long time we had talked about building a house, one of my friends from church had lived in a mobile home while he built a house on the back of his property. so we wondered, why did he behave in a way that terrified all those women who testified in court against him? you got to admit that was a pretty creepy thing to do. i don t know how creepy it is to look at houses or designs of houses. to tell people a whole shaggy dog tale about why you re there, to follow them around the house, to make them nervous. i preferred not to follow anybody through a house. they re the ones that want to show you the house so they tend to lead you. the rental agent he attacked and half strangled back in 1989. what do you have to say to a woman like her? okay, i don t remember her at all. i don t. and yet he actually confessed to attacking that woman back in 1989. and what about the witness so frightened by his visit to her house that she and her husband saved his license plate number? they kept the license number. they kept about four license plate numbers of people that looked at their house or wanted to look at their house without a realtor. not true, said darla davis. his license number was the only one they saved. i also asked him about his decision to take the pinstriping off his van, just then. he said that wasn t because police were looking for it but because it had been vandalizes. i was going to redo the pinstriping since i had originally put it on there. the zip ties police found wrapped around fencing on his property? they belonged to a friend, he said. and the statement by his wife janet that he would sometimes choke her during sex. i mean i will say that he does tend to put his hand on my neck. i never choked anybody. you choked your wife. no, i did not. she said you did. no, she didn t. she said you choked her as part of a sex act. that s how you had sex. that s not true. that s a manipulation of what she said. i m just telling you that s what she said. we reminded tony he d been married twice and in marriage number one same issue. but your ex-wife says you choked her. okay. and that s how you got sexual arousal. the only way you d get sexual arousal. i m not going to go into detail to embarrass her so i d rather not say anything about her. you know that s a tactic, don t you? i ve seen this done a thousand times. you can call it a tactic. if you ve got something to say about the woman, say it but don t do that where i m not going to say a bad thing about her because it would be mean to her. that s bs and you know it. well, under the world standards yeah that would be bs. but as a christian it s not. we asked about that pornographic website reporting to show the killing of asphyxiation of women. the one he had to register and pay for before he could access it. i cannot help that porn sites pop up on a computer. they don t pop up unless you look at some porn site. so there s an explanation for everything. there s a truth to everything. oh, yes, tony russo had an answer for everything. i am absolutely innocent and it disgusts me that every time you try to say you re innocent everybody says isn t that what everybody says? have you confessed the ultimate sin to god? what s the ultimate sin you re talking about? murder. if i had murdered someone i definitely would have. be you you say with your hands on your bible. i will die claiming my innocence and people can believe it or not believe it. i absolutely am innocent and i don t care how guilty i look. he couldn t convince any courts of that though. all his appeals failed. here he will stay. outside this institution, several women still struggle with the anxieties and fears and prisons of their own created by him. come back any time i get a call from a man that wants to see a house who is single. every time. i could have been a victim. i was an intended victim. that s a hard thing to think about. and they told us, the trauma lives on. though. it s comforting to know he s in there. that he can t hurt anybody else. they are sorority sisters of a sort who unwilling to live their lives as silent victims came together to help get tony russo off the street for good. we did our job and we got him convicted. so they did. this sisterhood. for the sake of a woman whose fate might have been theirs. diane holik. whose friends came together to remember how they miss her. even after all these years. she was a constant friend. she was in my life every day and all of a sudden she was gone in an instant like blowing a candle out. you see the smile on all these photographs. was she always smiling? always. always. she had a magic smile. it was infectious. if she was smiling everybody else had to. we had to. i m andrea canning, and this is dateline. andrea canning: it was one of the most harrowing days in our history. i hear
class= nosel > div class= colspacer > div class= gutr > artwork and his name. he seemed content. during one of his mental health evaluations, he told doctors, this is the happiest i ve been in my life. i m happy as a clam, to be honest. i really am. be honest. i really am. jr. who four decades after shooting an american president appeared at peace with his past. that s all for this edition of dateline. # thank you for watching. . good morning. and welcome to the saturday edition of morning joe weekend. it was a busy week, so let s get to the conversations you might have missed. you can t gag a nominee. can you imagine you are running for office and not allowed to talk. when that ndhappens, we are no longer s democracy. and we are not ppgoing to let that happen. and i know a lot of republicans want retribution and want to do that we are rigoing to see what happens. donald trump is ratcheting up threats to prosecute his rivals if reelected following his conviction on 34 felony counts in his criminal hush money trial. and in a new piece for the new york times, it s taking a closer eslook at what that coul mean. explaining it like this, the justice department is part of the executive branch. and he will be its boss. he will be able to tell its officials to investigate and prosecute his rivals and mr. trump who has made no secret of his desire to purge the federal bureaucracy of those found insufficiently loyal to achis agenda will be able to fire those who refuse. what s more, the times also highlights how republican leaders in and out of government, are publicly pushing to prosecute democrats as legal retribution for trump s felony conviction. specifically, steve bannon, the former chief s strategist evto trump who fowas convicted in a federal prosecution for failing to comply with a congressional subpoena. and in the january 6th investigation. he told the times in a text message that now is the time for obscure republican prosecutors around the country to make a name for themselves by prosecuting democrats. stating, there are dozens of ambitious back bencher state attorneys general and district attorneys who need to seize the day and own this moment in history. the cohost of the weekend simone sanders townsent and an host of the podcast on brand with donny deutch and state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave. dave, can you expound upon how this time around if trump did win another term in the presidency, that actually those threats wouldn t be something that republicans or people who choose to vote for him despite thinking that s wrong, perhaps going oh, you know, he is not serious, how actually this time around it can be serious. it s dangerous if donald trump gets a lackey as attorney general they have immense powers as federal prosecutor a and less ability to influence local prosecutors. one of the best things about being a local district attorney is that the governor, the attorney general and the president isthey are not your bosses. the people of our communities are our bosses, and that s why when maga blames joe biden for pulling the strings in the new york case. they are lying or have fundamental misunderstanding of the chris fuma am justice syste i can assure you no might house or president e called me to go after anyone especially donald trump. and if the white house was involved at the local level ed they would be calling me e because i am the state attorney with mar-a-lago in my jurisdiction. what this shows is team trump is projecting yet again when they claim that prosecutors are weaponized against former president. they are now trying to do what they are falsely accusing political opponents. it s cynical and dangerous and shows how the rule of law means nothing to the people. let s take other side and what democrats are tdoing and should be emdoing in the wake o the verdict. have seen polls suggest slight move towards president biden. a point or two. new york potimes had a survey they went back and recanvassed voters they spoke to and now the verdict modest but 2 points towards biden in race that s clothes but what should democrats being doing in terms of addressing the rules of law but how should they be taking on the verdict? is it something that should be front and center inor a piece o the puzzle. i said last week. it s a branding issue. whenever they refer to them they should start with convicted felon like he used to call lying ted. that s his name convicted felon donald trump. keep it present because as you talked about earlier, the a parade moves on. and this is something the parade shouldn t move on. the other thing i couldn t help watching this tmorning from normandy and biden speech, as biden referred to tyranny around the world and a w dictatorship and lack of freedom around the world, i was not confused. i was thinking was he talking about trump or putin which was the bigger threat he was talking about. and everybody should just watch and look at faces of those hundred-year-old men, the greatest generation who gave their lives not they gave their lives but partners gave their lives and they put their lives on the line. what they did that for so we, today, could have a free vote. it s as simple as that. they gave it for freedom. what s on the line in the ballot, and i am not overlie dramatic is free elections going forward. donald trump tellsous what he is going to do and will we have free elects if donald trump is elected and that s on the line and that s also with democrats we have to continue to do is no more complicated than that. it s freedom versus the end of democracy. that s it. that s not hyperbole. and simone, in order to dedo that and in order to defeat donald trump, think we have to pick up a certain percentage of trump voters. so. well. my question go ahead. well, tii would say, not tru voters because trump voters are voting for trump. there are very few people who brand themselves as trump voters who would consider casting a ballot for joe biden. and so i actually think in y order to win, joe biden has to recreate parts of his coalition from 2020, and that coalition included republicans and obviously an until of voters and democrat being base voters. and i have to tell you all i talked to our colleague michael steele one of oumy cohost on th weekend about this often. and michael hesteele is you hav to create a structure because republicans and they cannot fathom e voting for joe biden. he think what the issue is democratic voters, because the tent is so big, especially black and latino voters, young people, right, women voting democrat for a long time, they have not had a problem going into a voting booth checking the box or pushing a button for a person that doesn t align with them on everything because they are clear about why they are voting and the person will give me everything and is not with me on all the things. but i got to go into the ballot box for x, y and z. lee pub cans voters have not had to do that for a lopping time. to ask republican voters never had to hold the nose and cast a ballot for someone they don t think alines with them 100%. and in this election, when we talk about democracy, and i heard hearing joe biden this morning every day i am proud to be an american. but today maybe especially proud because especially the joe biden is our president. because when he stood out there and he said that it is the blood of the young and the brave that will defend and he laid made the case very clear, that s not a speech donald trump could have given. it s not something donald trump believes. but it is going to take a coalition of people, again, as times wrote in america, presidents have to earn the mandate and idearn it from the voters. and the question on the table is can joe biden earn the mandate. and think he can but they have to recreate the coalition. simone, what he said was the price of unchecked tyranny is the blood of our young. and will we stand up to that tyranny. the answer is yes. and i felt the same thing you did. i did feel the very same way. george s 2020 election interference case will not go to trial before presidential election this november. yesterday, a georgia court of appeals officially stayed the case until at least october. that ntmonth the court will hea a challenge of judge scott decision s to allow district attorney fani willis to remain. it applies to former president trump and multiple codefendants including rudy giuliani and former white house chief of staff mark meadows. it seems in two of the really key cases, jonathan, the delays keep coming. yeah, the trump playbook for more than a year now is all the charges and various jurisdictions was to delay, delay, delay to try to push them past the election. that didn t work in new york. and atwe know that and got a verdict last week. but seems to be working about everywhere else. georgia case definitively not happening until after the election. mar-a-lago classified documents case, judge cannon seems to be running interference at times for the trump campaign and that s been delayed. so dave, that leaves one. and that s the federal january 6th case. he which right now, big peas of it lie before the supreme court waiting a-a ruling whether or not presidents have full immunity. it s been described to me as a couple options here. one option is they say no of course not and if that s the case there is still a slim chance that jack smith could get the trial done in maybe august and therefore, we would have that before the election. but, if they do anything else including kick it back to the circuit court it will be beyond ma. give us your analysis what you think could, but will happen. the only case that could go before the election is that d.c. election interference case. judge cannon slow walking the case and cathe case in fulton county and fani willis had self- inflicted wounds and d.c. a judge who wants it to go and prosecution who wants it to go, but the supreme court is holding it up. now, there are a lot of options. the people are court could ou throw it back to the judge and say fact-finding. p that would make much harder . to have the trial before the election. but she would have a public fact-finding hearing which then the public would learn about all the dirty details around donald trump s involvement with january 6th. that s something. but in the end, think the problem is that the people need to know whether donald trump is guilty of the crimes and everyone was agasped about on january 6th. and department of justes which normally doesn t push cases shortly before the election has announced they will go to trial in this case wwithin 06 days o the election if the supreme court gives it the green light. we have lots more to get to this hour. morning joe weekend continues after a short break. joe weeken after a short break. ke a migrai. with nurtec odt, i found relief. nothing dims on a migraine with nurtek odt i found relief. it 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a margins that mat are because this is going to be a close election. don t miss the weekend saturday and sunday morning at 8:00. on msnbc. get the latest updates on presidential rates with how to win 2024. listen, read and watch to get insightful analysis by political insiders who know what it takes to win the critical election. listen read and watch how to win 2024. the president talked about ukraine as one of the current challenges that exemplified the fight against dark forces that never fade. and he made another yet another commitment he reenforced the commitment to ukraine, and by the way, if i may, we are watching live pictures right now of president biden and the first lady walking through the cemetery in normandy, france. and as we look at these pictures, which really symbolize the losses 80 years ago on d-day, and talk about the losses that ukraine is incurring right now from the same type of aggression. the president did say that the support for ukraine would continue, that we will be this for ukraine. how does that how does that parallel with some of the what we have seen in washington that delayed the much needed aid ukraine needed to push back against russian aggression? well, you know, that aide should have gotten there a long time ago but i am glad it is there i and making a difference. every i day we are pushing it to the front lines making sure ukrainians have it and can use it. but there s a powerful parallel between what we are commemorating today and what we are doing. back then it was not just the united states. here in normandy, 12 countries came together. 160,000 men coming to the beach, coming to start the final fight that ultimately 11 months later led to victory in world war ii. ukraine, more than 50 countries standing up, standing together, and making sure that ukraine has what it needs to defend itself and push back aggression. and that s the power of our alliances and that s the biggest difference maker in the world. our adversaries and competitors, they don t have the same alliances they coerced countries and pay them off, here, we have country after country that volunteers to stand together stand together in defense of principles that we share and need tee fending. we see that in ukraine and saw it 80 years ago here in normandy. mr. secretary, good morning. of course, the war in ukraine is the backdrop to where you are today in normandy. i wanted to get your reaction. donald trump, the presumptive republican nominee said a few times including last night on social media that he is saying that putin will release wall street journal report evan gershkovich who is being held prisoner on espionage and suggested putin will do so after the election were trump to win. can you give us a sense what he is talking about. is there a back channel conversation between trump and putin offer is this sort of dangerous rhetoric? i don t know what he is talking about. i can t speculate on it. all i can tell you is, we are working every day to make sure americans who are being detained arbitrarily whether in russia or anywhere else, come home. and we managed to bring more americans home who are being arbitrarily detained than any administration. and i carry a list with me every day of the americans who remain detained by one power or another, and we are working every day to make sure that not another day goes by before they are brought home to their families. i am not sure what he is referencing, but i can tell you we are working at it every day. mr. secretary, as you sat there this morning on sacred ground, you witnessed a group of veterans aged 98 to 103, struggling to stand in order to receive the legion of merit from the president of the united states and the president of france. given the burden that the president is carrying and you are carrying, in gaza, in the kyiv i was wondering as you watch the ceremonies and looked at the faces of these aged veterans, what were you thinking about? mike, it s it was such an incredibly powerful moment to look at men to try to imagine what it was like for them. 80 years ago. and he thought back because my dad, then, 80 years ago, had just left college in the middle of his school year, to signp for the air force to prepare to go into world war ii. and some where else on this continent, my stepfather was incarcerated in concentration camp. a death camp. and the men who came here to normandy 80 years ago, and turned the tide on the war because 11 months later world war ii was over, some of them went onto liberate the camps. and liberate my step dad and he was liberated by an american tank with that 5 pointed white star on it rushing up to a gi in the tank who opened the hatch and african american gi and he said then the only words he knew in the english language, god bless america. that s what i was thinking about today. god bless america. god bless the men who were before us who saved the world. mr. secretary, the president talked about nato how it is growing, how much stronger it will become against these dark forces. we have had a time in the united states where the commander in chief at the time, did not respect nato, i will say it kindly undermined it. can you share what s most important about the conviction and commitment of this international alliance. mika, it s really as i said, our comparative advantage we bring other countries together in common purpose so it s not just america alone. it s all of us taking on and upholding the cause of freedom. in ukraine more than 50 countries. not just the united states. and for everything we are putting into it, collectively our partners, our allies, are putting in more. and that s what s making the difference. so, to deny ourselves those alie ands alliances would be to short change our interest to do everything ourselves on it wouldn t get done. we used to have an idea after world war ii, called enlightened self-interest where the investments in others the work we did with others that came back ten times, 100 times, 1,000 times to our benefit. it meant we had new allies to deter aggression and new partners to deal with big problems that one country can t deal with alone. we had new markets for our businesses and our workers to sell to. that made sense for america. it makes sense for america. and president biden is determined and as he has been from day one, to make sure that our alliances are strong, partnerships are real, because that s good for the country. coming up, a new wide ranging interview with president biden revealing what he hopes to do if he is elected to a second term. we will talk with time magazine reporter who spoke to the president exclusively. don t go anywhere. nice to meet you. my name is david. i been a pharmacist for 44 years. when i have customers come in, and ask for something for memory, i recommend prevagen because it is effective and doesn t require a prescription and i have taken it and i love it when customers say david, that really 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million jobs. 353,000 jobs add in the first month of the year. what blowout. your 401ks and money will be worthless. you might have noticed in the corner of the screen the dow is never been higher than this. biden wins there will be no fracking no oil. united states producing more oil than any country ever in history. bankrupt your social security system. senior citizens set to see a bump in the social security chengp. you will be locked down for years. covid-19 public health emergency in the country officially ending midnight tonight. if biden won china would own the united states. they would literally own the united states. trade deficit with was up and biden it is come down. no school graduation no weddings. marriages are back to prepandemic levels. no thanksgiving. happy thanksgiving. no easters. happy easter. no christmases. merry christmas america. no 4th of july. happy 4th of july, america. other than that you will have a wonderful life. credit due there to jimmy kimmel and his team putting that run together. contradictions and poor predictions from donald trump. in a new wide ranging interview president biden is outlining his vision for a second term and highlighting his efforts to leave the country around the world. the president spoke exclusively to time for the publications upcoming cover story titled if he wins. joining us is time s washington bureau chief who he and time editor sam jacobs interviewed president biden for the cover story on may 28th at the white house. good morning. so what is the pitch if you put it on a bumper sticker but let you go longer. what s the pitch for a second term other than keeping donald trump out of the white house again? well, think that the point that biden and his team makes is foreign policy is very, very important. it s as important as any issue and the difference between biden and trump on foreign policy is as big a difference as has existed on foreign policy in 100 years maybe ever. biden believes in alliances. trump and his team are very skeptical don t like alliances. it matters generally for the future of the world and for americans prosperity and security which way the country chooses to go. tell us more if you will about the president s vision for a second term in terms of the foreign policy particularly on the matters of ukraine and what we are seeing in israel and gaza. so, you know, big issue in the background is china managing china s rise. what biden talks about in the interview is a kind of alliance based approach to managing that. they point to he and his team point to ukraine as an example of the way that it values based alliance can maximize amplify american power and influence. he is expanneded nato, and he brought in some asian powers into the effort in ukraine in ways people haven t done before. and in the middle east it s been a more prague mat being approach after initially isolating insaudi arabia the administration pivoted and embraced them to pull them back from china. and obviously,s s wrestled mightily with the alliance with israel and with netanyahu. all that gets to how you manage china, which is the first country in 100 years that has the potential to challenge the u.s. both militarily and economically, and you know, that really competition is going to shape, you know, the future for the u.s. over the coming century. so tell us a little more about that and also the role india might play. we have prime minister and his party today we are learning going to be reelected, but a small margin than anticipated. how does president biden attempt to say he will attempt to manage the forces? so, again, it s good example of what the biden approach is versus the trump approach. trump took a bilateral one-on- one transactional by his kit and it s aes own account achieved a lot in his own right. biden is more internationalist. so within india in addition to the straight one-on-one stuff, they focus on what s called the quad which is japan, australia, india and the u.s. and trying to build that up into a kind of a more formal sustainable force. but he s the list if you go back and look at stuff they rolled out, at the bilats between trump between biden and modi, they have a long list of things they have tried to put uneatable to bring india closer to the u.s. because you are right, that s a key strategic player in managing china. and of covers, the president expected to underline the importance of american alliance during speeches to commemorate the 80th anniversary of d-day this week in france. times cover story featuring president joe biden goes on sale next friday june 14th. title if he wins. times washington bureau chief massimo, thanks so much. we appreciate it. next, nearly two years after the supreme court overturned roe v. wade, a new book looks into conservatives years long strategy that led to the dobbs decision. we will talk with the authors after the break. did you know sling has your favorite programs for $40. favorite news for 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and listen to breaking news and analysis any time, anywhere. go beyond the what to understand the why. download the new msnbc app now. nearly two years after the supreme court overturned roe versus wade, a new book is shedding light on conservatives strategy that finally led to the dobbs decision. the book is titled the fall of roe, rise of a new america exploring how the most fervent anti-abortion activist persuaded the court to end nearly 50 years of precedence. the book s coauthors national religion correspondent for the new york times and national political correspondent for the new york times. good morning to you both congratulations. today s pub day. today is pub day. congratulations. today is pub day. your baby is out into the world. it is. it s here. cooply, deeply reported 350 interviews and you really get into the history of the issue. so, it s a lot to get through. but, i guess the i will start at the end which is how the dam broke after this half century effort to overturn roe versus wade. doubled trump getting in the white house, obviously put the three justices on the supreme court. but at the end, what happened to push it over the finish line. our book is the first narrative of how roe fell and we looked at final decade what have we call the roe hear and they were able to move the levers in power and big and small working at statehouses pushing through legislation. and you point out donald trump is elected and they get they jump on that train. it is a bullet train for them. and they get really lucky and get three seats on the supreme court. and they are dealing with an abortion rights movement that is really ileequipped and unprepared to take on the threat in a country that has a pervasive sense of denial the right part of american life for two generations could suddenly disappear. so, donald trump obviously evangelicals were skeptical of him in 2015 and 2016 a talked about being pro choice. many time in public previous to that, and then maybe ultimately they realized they could perhaps shape him because he wants to be elected. one of the interesting things we found is it was not just evangelicals that catholics played an important role in the anti-abortion movement s growth origins. evangelicals were late coming to that in history. and leaders of the anti- abortion movement actually really were rooted in their conservative christian values. values about family, womenhood, and, of course, abortion. and what our story shows it was shows values that were behind the movement. certainly as lisa said there s all the levers of power they pulled. but at its core this is happening over a period when america s becoming increasingly secular. and there s so much cultural change especially when it comes to marriage, family and sex. and these are the things the anti-abortion movement ultimately is hoping to change. it is not just about overturning roe. it s about a much bigger half century plan to really rollback the sexual revolution. joe, you watched this so closely from the point of view of faith but also through politics over the course of your life. yeah. and your career. culminating once donald trump is in the white house with 50 years precedence overturned. right in right 50 years of precedence overturn and elizabeth you are right, catholics have been pro life for quite sometime as i always joke on the show. evangelicals my church southern baptists were pro choice from the time of jesus birth until the eagles broke up. and i just so when you say a new america, i think it s interesting it was a new republican party and redefinition by political activists in 1979, 1980, what it meant to be in the evangelical and what it meant to be a christian. and you had people like paul you richard and jerry falwell this is how we beat a southern baptist democrat. i am curious how did their political mass nations in 1979 and 1980 not only change american politician, but based on your reporting, how did it change how evangelicals looked at their own faith. in bringing in this political controversy that many now put at the center of their faith. well, look, if you think about politics influencing religion or religion influence politics, and the story that we have been really seeing you have been talking about on the show for so long, is in the trump era especially in the last decade, we are really seeing the merging of those two things. and politics influencing religion. and you know, you can think back to the very long game the anti-abortion movement, conservative christians think in generations about change not just a political cycle. but, also, the people that you mentioned, that s a couple generations ago. and there was actually this most recent generation that actually got overturning roe over the finish line was really led by conservative christian women. and they have a vision of what it means to be a woman in america. how motherhood fits into that. that really changed the game in the end. and it is not just the story of kind of the 80s religious right but a modern religious right that s not just issues about abortion but issues all kinds of cultural issues. in this whole realm about rolling back the sexual revolution. and some ways, they have radicalized along with the republican party it s a new generation of socially conservative activists and have gone, i think donald trump republican party expanded horizons of what is possible and that s part of what we see playing out in the politics now particularly on this issue. well, and let s also state what every survey shows. a the love people calm they will selves evan evangelicals. tim keller said he stopped using the term because it had been so politicized. i am curious, lisa, in your reporting, i think the cliff hanger here as dobbs was being decided after the leak was whether john roberts was going to be able to get kavanaugh or barrett to come with him and just go with the mississippi 15 week ban. i am curious what did your reporting find? how close did the chief justice get to getting one of those two to take a more incremental approach? well, he didn t get all that close. he tried and certainly tried hard but in the end, this is not what happened. and you know, one of the most interesting things i think we found is we uncovered some new sort of internal documents that showed where this movement wants to go in the future. and how you know elizabeth was talking about how this is a movement that is really intent on changing the structure or reverting in some ways the structure of american families and what we saw was they are looking at other things going forward and that was hinted at in the decision by thomas. but, certainly, the internal documents we got a handle on we are talking about transrights and talking about parental rights and religion and public squares and things like schools or town meetings, and same sex marriage. this is a beginning you know the start of a series of cases on the issues that will wind their way to the court. up next, emmy and grammy nominated comedian on her new standup special morning joe will be right back. why. some people know the best rate for you are the best rate on all state there are people that are not you. a lot of them. you don t drive like. i don t want my child raised by a robot. other drivers are not you. yes, thank you so muchual 50 subscribers. no. not you. save with drive wise and get a rate based on you. you re in good hands with allstate. here s to getting better with age. here s to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein. complete nutrition you need without the stuff you don t. so, here s to now. boost. missing out on the things you love because of asthma? get back to better breathing with fasenra. it has taken once every eight weeks. it is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic actions may occur. don t stop asthma treatments without talking to your doctor. headache and sore throat may 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need a screen for colon canser. after i texted the age to screen is now 45? because. i said cologuard. hey there. where did he come from. with me screen at home. just talk to your provider. we will scream with cologuard and do it my way. it s one of a kind way effective and not invasive for those 45 plus at average risk not high risk. ask your provider for me cologuard. this is the moment i ve been waiting for. who knows where it will lead. convicted on all 34 feminie counts by a jury of his peers. this case is about donald trump s willingness to commit crimes to obtain that power. the rule of law was able to fend for itself during a course of the trial, but who fends for it in the aftermath. republican party. has a decision to make now as to whether or not it is okay to be convict and hold the nomination. we arrived at this in the same way we would any other. that is our justice system working. the process was itself a monumental achievement. my wife stephanie is directing tonight. tonight s my night, though. okay. stephanie call 911 and and a gigantic fireman appeared. i thought, i get it now. i could get used to this. mommy s home. i came around the corner and our son said, it s just her. does everything have to be a joke with you? kind of, yeah. that is a look at the new standup special tig notaro hello, again in the special tig a mother of two speaks about the more humbling parts of parenthood as you heard there. and as well as health challenges that come with aging and even unexpected encounter she had with a firefighter inside her bedroom. the maniy and grammy nominated comedian joins us now. she is also the codirector of the movie, am i okay which premiers tomorrow on max. we will talk about that in a minute. tig so good to see you. you too. can we hear about the firefighter encounter on do you not want to give away too much about the special. it raised questions in your mind. it was a little confusing. i am married to a woman, and she had to call the she had to call 911, and a fireman came and hauled me out of the house in the middle of the night. and his just big strong arms holding me and carrying me really, i truly was in his arms thinking, oh my god, i get it now. i was so confused. and he also had a big mustache, and. that will get you. i didn t know i was into mustaches. i was so confused. because i was, you know, fighting for my life, but also like, am i in the wrong life or you know, i didn t know what was going on. but yeah. you got it. you got it a little bit. you got two kids as you talk about in the special. your wife also as you said stephanie, directed this. yes. what is the dynamic there in terms of work partnerships? she is directing you in a special how to you get along. we get along well. we met working together. we met as actors on a film and created shows, and written tv and film and we have done everything together. so, it just kind of felt more my wife has a different look than the fireman. but, my taste is all over the place. but, so, yeah, i feel like we have similar sensibilities with slight differences of course. but i think those differences elevate our vision and everything that we do. i mentioned the kids. there s a hilarious moment in the special recounts a moment she arrives home to less than enthusiastic children. one day, i came home by myself and when i walked in, the alarm said, side door open. and our son started yelling, mommy is home. mommy is home. and that s what they call stephanie. and then i came around the corner, and our son fin looked back at me and looked at his brother and said, it s just her. as if to say don t even bother even slightly turning your head. the let down is so monumental. learn from my mistake. some of us who have two kids at home i can relate. we all can. not being the chosen parent. tell us how you decided to draw from your home life, kids in particular, into your act? i mean, it just i feel like it s that extra sense as a comedian where i think this is definitely something i am going to take on stage. and then, you know, now that i am married with a family, i it s not just me anymore. so, i have had moments where steffi has been like, i feel like that s just for us. right. and which is fine because there s a million other opportunities. i say i live in a house with a writing staff. because there s always something that i can grab and use. no doubt we all have multiple children and i think we related to the moment i think i am the number three person in the house and there s four of us hold on a second. think when people see you on stage and watched your special, they think she just has it together all the time. she just walks out on the stage and just does it. and you talked a little bit about how the chaotic events leading unto the special, and i am sure leading up to what you do on the stage, talk to us a little bit about that. because people don t always see that side of comedians and others who perform publicly. when you say. i think you talked about traveling through europe and losing are suitcase and. yeah, yeah oh my gosh. and the things that go into what you do on stage. you don t just pop out there. i normally do, i am a freak of nature in that way where i can just show up at show time. walk in and the back stage door and walk on stage. but, when i was touring europe before this special, i did i lost my suitcase for almost three weeks. and it was just on tour without me. seeing all the sights that i was hoping to. and i also somebody walked in front of me at the airport, with their huge luggage, and tripped me and i was launched fractured my wrist, and ended up on crutches for the rest of my tour. and i just got off crutches three days before that special. i didn t think i was going to be able to tape it. did you see that person in the airport. i mean. truly. hurt too. we talked about your professional collaboration with stephanie. you codirected the movie am i okay starring dakota johnson. tell us about that. it is a movie that was written by our friend lauren ponerantz who is outrageous such a great writer. and it s a later in life coming out story. dakota plays i think a 32-year- old. it s not like a grandmother is coming out. but she should if she wants to. but, yeah, it s just a story about friendship but also coming out, and basically you should be who you are at any age and do what you want to do, and it s really such a beautiful performance by dakota. i really think and know we just screened it the other night, the audience went nuts for it. it is so funny. it is so touching, and there s some silly parts in it, too. but, yeah, it s, i think it s really good. don t go anywhere. we have a second hour of morning joe weekend right after the break. rning joe weekend ri the break. all eyes on me a brand new trip is what they see. on my feet brand new whip is what they see. whip is what they see. . jeep there s only one. during the jeep make this the summer event get 2000 bonus. 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free. that s right, two months free. all the fast reliable nationwide coverage make the switch today. my husband and i own a growing beverage company. we rely on ecommerce and digital tools to build our business and launch new products. thanks to american investments and ai, we are using this technology to run our business more efficiently. artificial intelligence is a game changer. and i am excited the u.s. is leading the world in its development. our leaders should good morning and welcome to morning joe. we have lots to show you this saturday. let s step into some of the covers we had this week. donald trump did return to the campaign trail yesterday for the first time since convicted of 34 felonies last week. in phoenix, arizona, a state trump is not visited since 2022. the former president focused on more of the past and the future, complaining about the perceived injustices come he says, that have been inflicted on him over the years. i just went through a rigged trial in new york. nobody s ever seen because dinner was rigged. the election was rigged the last time. i will tell you that. i did much better than i did in 2016. millions more votes but a lot of bad things happen. he used covid to cheat. impeachment hoax number one. everything is a hoax. meanwhile everything is a hoax the former president spoke to dr. phil about wanting to take the stand at his trial and how sometimes revenge can be justified. i have a lot of lawyers that are friends. i had probably 25 goes over the course of a couple months say whatever you do don t testify because you will say something just a little bit off and you will be indicted for lying or perjury. these are evil people. these are sick, evil people. i think you have so much to do, you don t have time to get even. you only have time to get right? well revenge it does take time. i will say that. and sometimes revenge can be justified. i have to be honest. sometimes it can? revenge does take time. revenge can be justified. susan glasser, this gets at what you re writing about in the new yorker. this idea that donald trump, everything, everything is about him and you show up at a rally and all you hear about are the injustices committed against him in the world and how he s a martyr and a victim and everything else. you never hear him talking about how he will make people s lives better, which is what presidential campaigns used to be about. that s right. if you go back and look, this is a significant escalation and radicalization of trump around himself in a way that is quite different from his 2016 or even his 2020 campaigns. the other part of the agenda has diminished and the all about trump part of the agenda has taken over fully. and to the point about contrast with president biden. barry struck that at a moment when biden makes a clear focus on his efforts to combat what s happening in the world, you have trump repeatedly saying in recent days that he essentially doesn t care that much about russia and china. they are not such a big problem pick the biggest problem is the enemy within. this is emerging as a real theme for trump s campaign and he proposes to do something about it. you saw that amazing clip with dr. phil. even sympathetic interviewers these days try to get trump to say it s not about revenge and he won t buy it because it is about revenge. again and again and again trump is telling us very clearly. i guess my question is, are people really listening to what he is saying? is different than what he said before. the biden campaign says people will start listening and to this point they have largely tuned out trump. the trial has come and gone and he will be out there with more high profile settings and name with the debate and it can t be stressed enough how much the biden campaign is betting on that debate to change the trajectory of the race believing americans were here trump talk about things like revenge and how it s justified and be repelled by it. my question to you is is the bet right? do we think the biden campaign this is been aesthetic race to this point and we ve seen a little moment here and there including after the verdict for the most part we can say it s close but trump has had narrow but consistent leads in most of the battleground states. do we think this argument here, this dangerous argument on revenge will change their minds? two great things happen as a result of the trial. one was the guilty verdict and this has put trump on a path that this is all he could talk about never hear the words inflation from his mouth. you don t hear the words immigration or crime or any of the talking points he would usually use. he is consumed with this now and even now we are a week or eight days of the trial and this is all he could talk about. this is not what voters want to hear. i don t think any voter will say i ve yet to see the numbers in the polls. i see things about immigration in the polls and democracy but i don t see revenge as an issue any voter has said is a key issue. the more donald talks about that, the better it is for biden. jean robinson, the story i don t know. it s a snapshot of our time and where we are right now that bends your mind. i ll read it to you. two officers who defended the capitol on january 6 were booed by pennsylvania republicans this week pick this happened as former capitol police officer harry dunn and former sergeant aquilino gonell, two officers that help to protect the capitol on january 6 and prevent the overturning of the 2020 election visited the pennsylvania state house as part of a cross-country tour to discuss the threat they say donald trump poses to the country. we are told some republican members not only booed them but turned their backs on the officers and even walked out. this comes as they have been on the campaign trail in key battleground states in an effort to get president biden re-elected. this is the upside down world we are living in right now where police officers, think back the blue and support the police and all that stuff, who stood in the doorway defending democracy and turned back a group of people who were led to the capitol by ally committed violence in the capitol, try to overturn our system of democracy, those officers are now being booed by republicans. it is unbelievable. one of those officers was injured, a real injury to his foot defending the capitol. the other was showered with racist abuse and, of course, physically threatened and endangered defending the capitol , defending our members of congress. trying to do their duty in the citadel of our democracy and they get booed. look, one of our two major political parties has completely lost its mind and that s largely because of donald trump. and it is not just the senators and the representatives who are out there with incendiary and inflammatory rhetoric, but at the local level it s the rot, the craziness is even deeper and, in a sense, a more worrisome because if you look state republican parties, there are fanatical, sort of, unhinged people who are becoming not just a significant faction and those parties but in control of republican parties in our major states. this is a political emergency that we are going to be dealing with, i think, for a while because even if donald trump is defeated this november, all this , sort of, insanity in the republican party across the country doesn t immediately go away. this will be with us. this is a small group of republican lawmakers in pennsylvania, sure, but it s representative of something else, is it not? the crime committed by these two police officers, in the eyes of the people blowing them , are that they are crossing donald trump and they are speaking the truth about donald trump and the truth about what they saw with their own eyes on january 6. you know, in the last 24 hours if need a contrast i don t think you could find anything more stony than if you follow the news on the one hand biden at normandy giving a speech and seeing the faces of those heroes, 98, 99, 100-year- old man from the greatest generation and you feel that greatness. and then you listen to donald trump doing an interview yesterday and hearing him talk about what s wrong with this country and the hate and the venom and the self obsession and the vengeance and the revenge. and then you hear local republican lawmakers booing january 6 policeman and turning the back to them. one party is about darkness and grievance and negativity and self-loathing. and the other party is and will be throughout this campaign about positivity and i think there s about contrast there. next, homeland security secretary alejandra mallorca s response to president biden s executive order about the southern border. known as a loving parent. known for lessons that matter. known for being a free spirit. no one wants to be known for cancer, but a treatment can be. keytruda is known to treat cancer, fda-approved for 17 types of cancer. 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depending on the type of cancer, keytruda may be used alone or in combination with other treatments, and is also being studied in hundreds of clinical trials exploring ways to treat even more types of cancer. it s tru. keytruda from merck. see all the types of cancer keytruda is known for at keytruda.com and ask your doctor if keytruda could be right for you. president biden issued an executive order that will shut down asylum request at the southern border when crossing spike. under the order, border officials will stop accepting requests when daily encounters reach an average of 2500 migrants at legal points of entry. the shutdown will go into effect immediately as department of homeland security officials say encounters have reached 4000 migrants daily. the border will only reopen once the number of false to 1500 migrants pick joining us now is homeland security secretary alejandra mallorca s. thank you for being on the show. obviously this has had a mixed reaction come even from democrats, but explain how this works. what happens as this executive order goes into effect? what happens to the excessive number of migrants trying to make a cross over the border. good morning and thank you for having me. the goal here is to reduce the number of people who come to the southern border of the united states and cross illegally. our goal is to drive people who seek and need humanitarian relief into the lawful, safe and orderly pathways that we have built. individuals who arrive at our border and cross illegally will be barred from asylum, with exceptions. however, 1400 people who have made appointments through our cbp one app will be able to seek asylum in the united states through our ports of entry. individuals who have access our parole program for cubans, haitians, nicaraguans and venezuelans will be able to access assignment relief in the united states we have built an unprecedented number of lawful pathways, but we are going to secure our border and reduce the number of people who are encountered at its. mr. secretary, good morning. i think the question for a lot of people and not just conservatives, is what took so long to get to this place? we can go well before the legislation, that group of senators work hard to present and then republicans and the congress turned their backs on it on the instruction of donald trump. but going back even further than that, a system that allows people to show up at the border, claim asylum, sometimes legitimately and sometimes not, and move into the country because they know it will take years for the asylum hearing to come up, why did it take so long to get to this place which does seem rational to many people? well, two points. first of all, you have ceased accurately upon the fundamental problem with our asylum system that it takes years and years and we need congress to fix it. only congress can provide the enduring solution, which is legislation. but that s let s take a look at the chronology. on day one of his administration, the president presented congress with a comprehensive legislation to fix our broken immigration system. since then and up until may of last year, we have been operating under the public health order of title 42. when that order was lifted in may of last year, we drove the numbers down, despite some predictions that pandemonium would ensue. shortly thereafter, the president implored congress to fund this department and other departments that administer our immigration laws as we need to be resourced. he, in august, submitted a supplemental funding package. and then again in october he submits another supplemental funding package. and neither was picked up by congress most regrettably and most importantly . we then went into an arduous, hard-working process to develop bipartisan, senate legislation that would have fundamentally fixed our asylum system. and once and for all properly resourced this department and the department of justice and state. twice congress failed to pass that legislation and so the president took this executive action within his lawful authority. mr. secretary, good morning. you outlined the domestic political challenges with what s happening at the border but the united states is not alone in this. is also mexico and they just had a new election. can you tell us the relationship and the guidelines you will use as your approach with the new administration there. are you hopeful they will cooperate? we have built a very strong and productive partnership with mexico, with the president, we expect that strong and productive partnership to continue under the presidency of claudia sheinbaum . and this challenge of migration is a regional challenge and it requires regional solutions, not just in partnership with mexico, but in partnership with other countries such as costa rica, panama, colombia, guatemala, ecuador, and the like. we are experiencing not just at the southern border but the rudder hemisphere and around the world an unprecedented level of migration, an unprecedented number of displaced people and regional challenges require regional solutions. homeland security secretary alejandra mallorca s, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. we have lots more to get to this hour. morning joe: weekend continues after a short break . oncern me? because you re.the. aren t you the..? huh.we never actually discussed hierarchy. ok, why don t we just stick to letting dave know how much he can save when he bundles his home or auto with his boat or rv. wait, i thought jamie was the boss. [ laughter ] it s funny because i m not boss material! if you have chronic kidney disease you can reduce the risk of kidney failure with farxiga. because there are places you d like to be. farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract, or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. far-xi-ga did you ever worry we wouldn t get to enjoy this? [jeff laughs maniacally] (inner monologue) seriously, look at these guys. they are playing great. meanwhile, i m on the green and all i can think about is all the green i m spending on 3 kids in college. not to mention the kitchen remodel, and we d just remodel the bathrooms last month. with empower, i get all of my financial questions answered. so i don t have to worry. so you re like a guru now? oh here it comes join 18 million americans and take control of your financial future with a real time dashboard and real live conversations. empower. what s next. choose advil liqui-gels for faster, stronger and longer-lasting relief than tylenol rapid release gels because advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. so for faster pain relief, advil the pain away. i m gonna hold you forever. i ll be there. you don t. you don t have to worry. i know you said before that you ve been sustained by the prayers of lots of americans. i see pictures of people praying over you. her question is, she said you been faced with so much adversity and persecution for years, what is your relationship with god like and how do you pray? that s sharon from alabama. i think it s good. i do very well with the evangelicals. i love the evangelicals. and i have more people saying they pray for me. i can t even believe it and they are so committed and so believing. they say, sir, you re going to be okay. i pray for you every night. i mean, everybody. i can t say everybody but almost everybody that sees me, they say, it s such a beautiful thing you know what s a beautiful thing too? when you look at all this bad stuff going on, they have nothing to look up to. they have no god. they have no anything. they kill people. bb-8 people. they push people into subways. there s just nothing there. religion is such a great thing. it keeps you you know, there s something to be good about. you want to be good. it so important. i don t know if it s explained right or if i m explaining it right but when you have something like that, you want to be good. you want to go to heaven, okay? you want to go to heaven. if you don t have heaven you almost say, what s the reason? why do we have to be good? let s not be good. what difference does it make? really, i don t know what to say. religion is a good thing, it was his reaction. he was asked, what is your relationship with god? he said, i do good with evangelicals. asked about his prayer life, he says, people come to me and say, sir, i pray for you every night. proving an extraordinary ability to sound clueless after all these years on the most basic questions of faith. and what is your relationship with god and talk about your prayer life, are two of the most basic questions. joining us now, nbc news national affairs analyst and partner in chief political columnist at hawk. i know he and his former partner, mark halperin, also asked donald trump questions about faith in 2016. new testament or old testament? and his answer was both. what is your favorite bible verse? what your favorite bible verse? oh, i don t want to talk. and david brody at cbn asked him if god has forgiven them and he said, well, i don t pray to god for forgiveness. there is no reason for me to be forgiven. this is a man, of course, who is claiming massive support because he s getting it among self-described evangelicals, john. please explain that to us all. thank you for comparing me with one of the great mysteries of life and modern politics. look. you had that took earlier today and i do think the change that took place that you pointed to in the religious right went from essentially the political people kind of guiding the movement and taking it to a new place to where it has become more recently, which is the religious people kind of took over in some sense the conservative movement and they started to channel their desires through political instruments. trump became for a lot of people in the antiabortion movement and more broadly on the values right, trump became a totally instrument to advance their causes and i think it s one of the most cynical things i ve seen in politics. think about people talking about true believers and talk about the faithful being single issue voters are blinded by their beliefs and ideologically driven extremists. in a lot of ways they became more instrumental than almost any faction in american politics. they look to trump and said we know he s not a christian. we know he doesn t believe anything he says, but this guy is her ticket to getting done what we want to get done. overturning roe v wade is one thing but across the board he became the tool by which they could achieve things they had long wanted to achieve and had been able to achieve and they turned out to be right about that but they meet a very deep, very cynical deal with the devil and i don t mean to call trump the devil here but it deal they said, you know, the man s not one of us but who cares. he will win and will get it done and will do what we tell him to. but they were making that bargain even before donald trump with paul wyrick and jerry falwell and richard saying, what we will do is we re going to actually turn abortion does not only into a key political issue for evangelicals but we will turn it into a religious issue. so you have a southern baptist church coming from pro-choice to pro-life. the southern baptist church, and other mainstream protestant denominations going from being pro-choice, or quite on the issue to pro-life. that s one step. but it moves forward now to where it becomes the most important issue. these political issues become the most important political issues. so if you talk to people of faith, like russell moore, and others, they would tell you pete wayne, they would tell you the so-called deal with the devil was the deal evangelical leaders made some time ago when they decided to replace spiritual goals with secular goals. we are not going to fight the spiritual battles and try to win people. that s not going to be our primary focus for a lot of these evangelical leaders we hear with a national audience. their primary focus is going to be on the secular, whether that s gaining and keeping political power or telling adherents how to become rich, the so-called prosperity gospel , which, again, both of those are completely opposite of what jesus preached about over three years. and i will say the only place, to put a fine point on it here i don t think the christian right thought that ronald reagan was a spiritual vandal. i think they thought he was one of them. i think they thought george w. bush was genuinely born again. i think they thought that mitt romney took a spiritual life spiritual seriously. even though the demands of faith and to some extent go to politics prior to donald trump, donald trump is the most gratuitous, extreme outgrowth of the thing you re talking about where they basically look at a guy and collectively that these are not stupid people in this movement. there are some stupid people everywhere, but there was a calculated thing for the christian right look to trump and knew full well that he was not one of them did not believe the same things they believed. did not go to church. was probably, privately, pro- choice. was someone who would done all kinds of things, someone heard about in this trial over the last seven or eight weeks, all kinds of things they would find morally depraved and unacceptable and simple and he made no real effort to try to even pretend to be one of them when he would answer these questions. and yet they said, we don t care because this is a winning ticket for us. with him under our thumb, we will be able to get that supreme court majority we have so wanted. and as i said before, they got it. and we elected a president, not a saint. look the other way on a lot of stuff so they get what they want. people asked me where can i get more and today we have an answer. the impolitic podcast. watch today and tell us about it. i ve had this podcast for a few years that i put into the deep freeze. i was like han solo, frozen and podcast amber for about a year and when i moved we decided to relaunch it under this new title. it s the same name as the column. it s not only been relaunched as of this morning, talking about the trump trial with andrew wiseman but it has expanded to twice a week rather than once a week. like new york, a town so nice they named it twice, this will happen every tuesday and friday morning. puck and odyssey together. check it out. next, the so-called double haters who aren t into either candidate. we look at how they respond to donald trump s guilty verdict. a, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it s like the feeling of finding you re so ready for your close-up. or finding you don t have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don t take if you re allergic to 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(vo) dan made progress with his mental health. so clearly you. .but his medication caused unintentional movements in his face, hands, and feet called tardive dyskinesia, or td. so his doctor prescribed austedo xr a once-daily td treatment for adults. as you go with austedo austedo xr significantly reduced dan s td movements. some people saw a response as early as 2 weeks. with austedo xr, dan can stay on his mental health meds- (dan) cool hair! (vo) austedo xr can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington s disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, or have suicidal thoughts. don t take if you have liver problems, are taking reserpine, tetrabenazine, or valbenazine. austedo xr may cause irregular or fast heartbeat, or abnormal movements. seek help for fever, stiff muscles, problems thinking, or sweating. common side effects include inflammation of the nose and throat, insomnia and sleepiness. as you go with austedo ask your doctor for austedo xr. austedo xr ( ) i m getting vaccinated with pfizer s pneumococcal pneumonia vaccine. so am i. because i m at risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. come on. i already got a pneumonia vaccine, but i m asking about the added protection of prevnar 20®. if you re 19 or older with certain chronic conditions like asthma, diabetes, copd, or heart disease, or are 65 or older, you are at increased risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. prevnar 20® is approved in adults to help prevent infections from 20 strains of the bacteria that cause pneumococcal pneumonia. in just one dose. don t get prevnar 20® if you ve had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients. adults with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects were pain and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, fatigue, headache, and joint pain. i want to be able to keep my plans. i don t want to risk ending up in the hospital with pneumococcal pneumonia. that s why i chose prevnar 20®. ask your doctor or pharmacist about the pfizer vaccine for pneumococcal pneumonia. start a new focus group is looking into voter reaction to donald trump s guilty verdict. the interactive video platform and association with the research firm sat down on sunday with a group of so- called double haters or voters unhappy with the prospect of choosing between joe biden and donald trump. none of the participants who live in north carolina and georgia about trump s conviction would affect their vote and none thought biden would win the election. in addition, they were also asked if the former president was treated fairly at his trial. i don t think he was treated fairly. i did not watch the trial but when you are before a judge or whatever, a jury, and they have to go by the law and by what the judge and jury say. so i feel like he was experiment i feel like he was treated fairly. i feel like he actually got away with saying a lot of disparaging things not only about the jurors, about the judge, as well. i know he said things before about other people who are prosecuting him. and i m just thinking if it would ve been anyone else on trial and you are bad-mouthing the jurors or the judge, what would ve been the repercussions of that? yeah. i think you benefited from his stature and did not abide by the gag order. most people what be nailed with fines and things like that but he s going to bite on that so i think he was absolutely treated fairly, if not better than most people during the trial. i do trust the legal system enough that if the prosecution and defense were able to pick jurors and they presented it so quickly and the jurors and the judge all agree to follow due process and found him guilty quickly, i have a hard time believing that there were that many jurors agreed upon that were all in on it. he s not guilty but we will find him guilty for?. the thought that donald trump was given a fair trial. none of those people said, in that focus group, that it was going to impact their vote. that said, polling of undecideds in georgia and north carolina showed that actually quite a few did believe it would have an impact on their vote. let s bring in the host of majority rules in the undecideds and founder of all in together, lauren leader. i m looking at the top line on the polling that you all took 78% believe the verdict was the right verdict. 21% thought it was the wrong verdict. and this is the difference in voting with the threat of prison hanging over donald trump . a very large difference, 12%. large difference, 50%, moderate difference, 23%. and that adds up to over 50%. over 50% of these so-called double haters said it could have an impact on their vote, but overwhelmingly almost all of them believed donald trump got a fair trial. yeah. and that was what was so fascinating, especially listening to the conversation. first of all, there was so nuanced and thoughtful about the responses and i want to say this is so far the only swing state poll that s been done since the verdict and it s going to matter a lot because the swing states will decide the election and undecided voters will be a huge factor in the decisions of the election. what struck me was that incredible contrast between this competence in the legal system the jury was fair and the trial was fair and trump was treated fairly said they did not buy any of the trump claims the whole thing was rigged and unfair to him. they did not buy that at all. and yet they also felt it was politically motivated. the trial was brought this year because of the election. that it wasn t an important enough issue to have been brought. a number of them talked about the documents case in florida, the classified documents as being more important and did not understand why this was brought this year. i will also say they did not understand the charges but they could not articulate what it was they he was convicted of. that s why fascinating about this dynamic and we see this in national polls, as well. americans are saying it doesn t matter are there have been some polls saying it doesn t matter. that he was treated fairly. the verdict was fair and yet somehow he still going to win and it doesn t matter that he is a felon, and i think that s going to be a hard circle for the biden campaign to square over the next few months. we have lots more to get to this hour. morning joe: weekend continues after a short break. salonpas, it s good medicine. hi, i m eileen. i live in vancouver, washington and i write mystery novels. as i was writing, i found that i just wasn t sharp and that doesn t work when you re writing a mystery and i knew i needed to do something so i started taking prevagen. i realized that i was much more clear, much sharper. i was remembering the details that i was supposed to. prevagen keeps my brain working right. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. my fear of recurrence could ve held me back. but i m staying focused. and doing more to prevent recurrence. verzenio is specifically for hr-positive, her2-negative, node-positive early breast cancer with a high chance of returning, as determined by your doctor when added to hormone therapy. verzenio reduces the risk of recurrence versus hormone therapy alone. diarrhea is common, may be severe, or cause dehydration or infection. at the first sign, call your doctor, start an antidiarrheal, and drink fluids. before taking verzenio, tell your doctor about any fever, chills, or other signs of infection. verzenio may cause low white blood cell counts, which may cause serious infection that can lead to death. life-threatening lung inflammation can occur. tell your doctor about any new or worsening trouble breathing, cough, or chest pain. serious liver problems can happen. symptoms include fatigue, appetite loss, stomach pain, and bleeding or bruising. blood clots that can lead to death have occurred. tell your doctor if you have pain or swelling in your arms or legs, shortness of breath, chest pain and rapid breathing or heart rate, or if you are nursing, pregnant, or plan to be. i m focusing on what counts. talk to your doctor about reducing your risk. [ serene music playing ] about reducing your risk. welcome to the wayborhood. the wayfair vibe at our place is western. my thing, darling? shine. gardening. some of us go for the dramatic. how didn t i know wayfair had vanities in tile? [ gasps ] this. wow! do you have any ottomans without legs. sure. you ll flip for the poof cart. in the wayborhood, there s a place for all of us. wayfair. every style. every home. as president biden and administration officials push for cease-fire deal between israel and hamas, the families of the hostages remain focused on their missing loved ones earlier this week national security advisor jake sullivan met with some of the families of americans being held by hamas. our next two guests participated in that discussion. rachel gold word and jon polin joining us now. there is really american son was abducted by hamas while attending the supernova music festival. he celebrated his 23rd birthday just days before the concert. good morning to you both. it s nice to have you with us. rachel, i will start with you and that meeting with jake sullivan, the national security advisor. i know you participated of resume. did you hear anything in that meeting that encouraged you? did you hear anything that made you think the effort to bring your son and the rest of the hostages home is making progress? well, we definitely felt hope and optimism because that was what jake sullivan was relaying to us and there was the feeling that there is this full-court press of enough is enough. we want to get these people home, all 124. and of course the american eight is something that hangs on everyone in the administration and the entire american government and he felt confident that the right people were going back to the region. we know that brett mcgurk and director bill burns were, shortly after the conversation, already on their way back to the region, which was hopeful for all of us. at the end of the day though, we know that whether you had these extremely seasoned negotiators, diplomats, experts, aides, doing all that they are doing, the final outcome is going to come from two men only deciding and that, i think, is what is so painfully torturous about this. jon, today marks eight months since october 7 since hersh was abducted. when you sit in that meeting with jake sullivan and speak as you have been for eight months to officials inside the u.s. government, what did they say today about the best hope to get the hostages? is it a deal? is it a rescue mission? what sounds most promising to you and to the people trying to pull this off? yeah. the good news is the focus in that is everybody believes the best possible way to do this is through a deal. the bad news is we been hearing that for most of the last eight months, and as you know, we are not there yet. i think what president biden did last friday night was brave and courageous and we applaud him. he took a negotiation that was stuck in neutral, maybe even sometimes in rivers and in one fell swoop it s like you pushed into third gear. now we need to keep the momentum going. and as rachel said, there are all the right people in the region. we need to push on the leaders of israel and the leaders of hamas, and have them buy in to what the mediators are pushing. it s a deal that has to get done because the israeli people are suffering. our hostages are suffering. innocent gazan civilians are suffering and eight months is eight months too many picks payment rachel, you ve been through many of these meetings now with american officials and you ve been through a lot of ups and downs , how are you and jon managing to temper your own emotions and exhaustion, your sleep, your food when faced now with another prospect that may be there is reason to be a little bit more optimistic given this latest push? well, every morning we get up and we look at each other and say, hope is mandatory and we try our very best to struggle through another day of elegant, intense torment. and it is absolutely not easy. we are broken and suffering, and yet we have no choice. there is no choice but to keep it running . and were not just running, we are sprinting. this is what all the hostage families are doing. we just have no choice but to keep full speed ahead trying every thing we can possibly do. and we are praying that the leaders of both sides, for their own personal interests the not going to come together because they both suddenly have an epiphany moment and feel they should be on the same page, but that s part of compromise. you give up something that you hold dear for something you hold more deer. so whatever interests are on the israeli side or the hamas side need to just lean forward and with the help of these expert negotiators and seasoned diplomats who are in there trying to grease the wheels, we are praying that we get a result. everyone in this region, i can t even call it suffering, it s the next step above suffering, and we need for the leaders to put an end to it. jon, one of those leaders, prime minister benjamin netanyahu has said he will come to washington and address congress on july 24. what do you make of that invitation and what do you hope to hear from him that day? july 24, to us, feels like an eternity away. we are obviously hoping that but july 24 all the hostages are back home. the region is on a path forward , and i would be thrilled if prime minister netanyahu can show up and give a variation of a victory speech. i want nothing more than that. and by the way, i m also okay with the other side giving his people a victory speech if that s what it takes to get this done. let s get it done. a lot can happen between now and july 24 and we are hopeful. next, new documentary sheds light on one couple s emotional and enduring mission to combat als. with us. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with all the money i saved i thought i d buy stilts. being so tall definitely has its advantages. oh whoa. here you go, kiddo. thanks. hi honey ready to go? yup. there it is, there it is. ahhh.here we go. i guess it also has some disadvantages. yes it does. only pay for what you need. liberty. liberty. liberty, liberty. nexium 24hr prevents heartburn acid for twice as long as pepcid. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium. organic soil from miracle-gro has grown me the best garden i have ever had. good soil, and you get good results. look at that! the broccoli was fantastic. that broccoli! i think some of them were six, seven pounds. her uncle s unhappy. i m sensing an iunderlying issue.em it s t-mobile. it started when we tried to get him under a new plan. but they they unexpectedly unraveled their “price lock” guarantee. which has made him, a bit. unruly. you called yourself the “un-carrier”. you sing about “price lock” on those commercials. “the price lock, the price lock.” so, if you could change the price, change the name! it s not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that s uncalled for. if you want to defeat als, you need everyone working together. they took this extraordinary challenge and said, we will go out and make things happen. if are able to untangle als, we may be able to help others. i am and all of brian wallach. he wants to get back and take care of the next person that gets diagnosed . i never experienced a movement like this. it s changing history in front of our eyes. brian s als has accelerated a lot. we feel like we are running out of time. hey, organa do this. as always beneway. this could actually work. i don t think there s any test of the human spirit more telling than someone saying you don t have a long time to live and responding in this way. i am als! i am als! that is a look at the powerful new documentary, for love and life: no ordinary campaign picked up from paula brian wallach, diagnosed with als in 2017 and his wife, sandra abrevaya, two former obama administration officials who have used their expertise and knowledge of washington to secure funding for als research and improve to prove other families living with the disease that there is hope. sandra joins us now and is the cofounder of i am als, also with it is the director and producer of for love and life: no ordinary campaign, christopher burke. great to see you both. thank you for having us . can we start with some background? i gather you know each other? just a little bit. i m trying not to cry right now, honestly, because i ve known you so long. and i m so proud to know you and brian. and what you ve done is remarkable. i mean, you ve really brought this to life for people who weren t tracking with this disease was, he did not know they had a voice or power to have a voice. and before i get more emotional, you both had done so much before brian was diagnosed as public servants contributing to electing barack obama, but this is your greatest legacy, which is remarkable. you just want to ask for people watching out there who think maybe they have als or another disease or maybe they feel their voice isn t heard and they can t make a difference, what would you tell them about what they should do? so many people feel powerless and you have shown that you are empowered and you can be powerful. absolutely. and with these neurodegenerative diseases, whether it s als or parkinson s or ms, these diseases affect the way you speak or move so these are difficult diseases to live a public life with. oftentimes, that you have an illness. so people, they turn inward. that is the instinct. that is what brian and i are b trying to encourage people to fight against because when they do come forward, their voices are so powerful and having been in government and advocacy for so long prior to our diagnosis, i mean, our whole job for so e many years was to elevate people who were affected by policy. when that happened to us, we knew that even if we were just one voice, even if you are just one voice, being public, if you have one of these illnesses, ve can have such an impact.
Already gotten pneumonia vaccine. but i m asking about the added protection of privilege not 20 if you re 19 or older with certain chronic conditions like asthma, diabetes, copd, or heart disease, or are 65 or older, you are at increased risk for pneumococcal pneumonia, prevnar 20 is approved in adults to help prevent infections by 20 strains the bacteria that cause pneumococcal pneumonia in just one dose, don t get prevnar 20 if you ve had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients adults with weakened immune systems may you have a lower response to the vaccine? the most common side effects were pain and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, fatigue, headache, and joint pain. want to be able to keep my plans i don t want to risk ending up in the hospital with pneumococcal pneumonia. that s why i chose prevnar ask your doctor or pharmacist about the pfizer vaccine for pneumococcal pneumonia. pods spring moving sale has been extended, save up to 25% on moving in storage until june 10, and cbi pods, it s been trusted did with over 6 million
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