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among other things, mike pence's novel -- to put it kindly -- novel notion about why he should not have to testify before a grand jury. >> novel is one way of putting it, lawrence. i can't wait to see. it >> thanks, alex. >> thank you. >> well the breaking news of the night is that special prosecutor jeff jack smith has invoked the crime fraud exception in a motion to force one of donald trump's lawyers to testify before a grand jury without being able to refuse to answer questions because of the attorney client privilege. the crime fraud exception can overrule the attorney client...

Route of following the money. the times reports in addition to the documents and the january 6th investigations, mr. smith appears to be pursuing an offshoot of the january 6th case, examining save america, a pro trump political action committee, through which mr. trump raised millions of dollars with his false claims of election fraud. that investigation includes looking into how and why the committees vendors were paid. joining the discussion now is andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel and former chief of the criminal division in new york. he's a professor of law at nyu law school an...

Like this to be brought to trial? what do you think also, whatever comes in the, and you think he's going to be convicted, what does that signal to other trump allies, who are also refusing to comply with the committee's subpoenas? >> that's why they brought. it as you say, there is a concrete cost here, at least for, now they have not been able to get the testimony. same is true with meadows. and navarro. they had to refer for content, in order to actually sober up the other witnesses, who are thinking of maybe being resistant, as well. there is a cost, but when i'm looking for here, is for h...

Surrendering. one guy doesn't even have a gun, gonzalez, who's an awful guy. i mean, he's the cream of the crud. but he still deserves to only be arrested with only that force that's necessary, and not anymore. so i think what it needs is more investigation, probably by the civil rights division, to look at it closer, you know, dive a little deeper, get some testimony out, where is the watch? there's got to be pictures of the informant's body at the scene. is the watch on? did it make it to the coroner's office? the medical examiner? where did it go? was it a transmitter? was there a tape in a...

Exaggerating it. >> couldn't they have accomplished the same thing by just introducing the syllabus itself? why did they bring this guy in and allowed this guy to bring in defense-oriented testimony out? >> i know, mark. i -- i can't -- -- >> you have no answer. >> i have an answer for that. >> i actually thought that it was helpful to the prosecution because we've got to remember the jury saw the interview that he gave to sean hannity and when sean hannity asked him, what about stand your ground law did you know about it? he said i didn't know anything about it. you know, i found out about it...