i'm quite confident like your prior guest matthew alexander that it made this much more difficult, it took much longer, and i think osama bin laden would have been found earlier but for the fact that torture was involved and what it did throughout the middle east. >> cliff, would you defend waterboarding on all the points liz cheney made? >> i'm going to defend my own position if you don't mind, ed, and start with this. >> sure, sure. >> that is to say, look. in this particular instance we do know that the seed of intelligence that grew the vine that led us to find osama bin laden came about through coercive techniques of interrogation. in one instance waterboarding, the other two instances sleep deprivation and probably psychological humiliation. a second i think it's important to have a little context here and that is thousands of combatants have been taken into custody. about 100 have end eed up in th cia program. about 30 have suffered any coercive, enhanced interrogation techniques. only three individuals have been waterboarded. i also think it's important that