Minister of state for Foreign Affairs why are there still so many Unanswered Questions about the murder and why the massive crackdown on human rights activists inside saudi arabia. And the larger bare welcome to complex so nice to be here its around 16 months since agents of your state to murder Jamal Khashoggi and cold blood in your consulate in istanbul whats striking in retrospect is that 3 days later your crown Prince Mohammed bin sandman told the turkish authorities to search the consulate and added we have nothing to hide that remarkable statement because in fact the last 16 months have been full of aspects of this case that you have hidden right from the start and going on hiding this is not the truth i dont believe so. We have said that this was a rogue operation that it was not authorized we have investigated 3 people who were part of this operation charges were leveled against 11 of them 5 of them were facing the Death Penalty the trial began in january the trial was attended by representatives of the permanent 5 countries and on the Security Council plus 3 people id like to talk id like to talk about the trial but but but straight away after the event theres just take that expensive offer from the crown prince to search your concert was another 10 days before turkish investigators were actually loud into the building why so long if you had nothing to hide why would the technical person but i understand that there are situations where countries have to agree on the mechanics and the modalities of how you want people to enter sovereign territory you have to agree on the equipment you have to agree on the scope and you have to agree no country would allow another country full access to a diplomatic facility that are certain happened the un special rapporteur adverse kalama didnt see it that way she found credible evidence pointing to the crime scene as having been fairly even forensically clean these indicate she said the saudi investigation was not carried out in good faith and that it may amount to obstruct the justices that was kind of i did not have a mandate for this she relied on sources from the newspapers and leaks to the media she did not she didnt have any experts in forensics and other issues but its a safe assumption isnt it you clean up the crime scene immediately youre hiding something up a safe assumption the issue with agnes keller virus you vote to report based on to some fords and then she accused before even started look at her record when it comes to surgery before a number of years and how disparaging of her negatives she has been against saudi well a lot of people are disparaging these days about saudi arabia because we are human rights record and i take this i take exception with this so grevious made great progress in terms of human rights and reverse could make great progress in terms of reform in terms of empowering women in terms of empowering youth in terms of all of the site in terms of diversifying our economy into. As of reducing our reliance on oil 30 a bit is moving very very quickly in a very positive direction under the guidance and direction of the company will come on to the details of that and i want to take you up on that but the list of Unanswered Questions about the murder itself is extensive in that we still dont know what happened to the remains of mr. How is that possible when you allegedly have all the criminals involved behind bars how do you know how do you not know they have said that they had a local collaborator who disposed of the body where is it i dont know i mean didnt you interesting designers i am not the Public Prosecutor we do Foreign Policy we dont know criminal investigations you have given behind has let it be king of the state telling you what we did and what we did is what every other country did the United States said iraq legal to everybody to us i am talking about the us committed outrageous crimes did the president authorized it and it was scrutiny of his the commander the same way youre being scrutinized yes and what they did is they investigated they held people accountable they put in place mechanisms to prevent that from happening thats what governments who was this socalled cooperate so you know respond have took away the body i dont want to remain i dont know we dont have a history of murdering our citizens but if you are sorry as you claim to be over this incident why havent you found the this information is a matter of urgency and told with the question of his family because that was a few momentary ingestion we had sent a number of legal documents to the turkish authorities asking for information we have not received anything except one you havent told us either who you think masterminded this murder surely the trial must have shown up in and said that it was it was a mistake people exceeded their authorities and this happened the people who committed of agreed did not do it under the authority of the president or the Vice President or the secretary of defense the u. S. Government isnt buying your version of events is that the cia has let it be known in briefings that it has medium to high confidence that it was your crown prince mahmoud been someone who ordered the killing. We dont see it this way the president and the secretary of state have said this is not the case the largest Intelligence Agency in the world unmatched resources you tell me theyre talking nonsense i can only tell you what the us president whos the commander in chief of the u. S. Armed forces and what the secretary of state have said publicly. But if it was nonsense how do you explain the phone conversation intercepted by u. S. By agencies in 2017 in which the crown prince told a top aide hed use a bullet all because we didnt stop his criticism i dont know anything about this and i cant comment about something that appears in newspapers based on the sources even if those Anonymous Sources are attributed to intelligence agencies the u. N. Acknowledges that its been an important step this trial towards accountability but says its failed to meet procedural and substantive standards trial to help hold where you are and those who are in the u. S. So the report from the from the special rapporteur the special must on its biased special about or why because it is a little group with exceeded her authority the special of what or says the trial was secret how can a trial be secret when we have representatives from the 5 permanent members of the Security Council plus turkey alqaeda trial was held behind closed doors the identity of those charged has not been released nor the identity of those facing the Death Penalty why the decision of opening up a trial or not rests with the judge and if the judge does not want to have a courtroom that looks like a circuit its his prerogative to close the trial now the representative from the other countries who are there have access to all the proceedings and they know the names of the people why were they told not to speak about it because we want to make sure that when the trial is over and charges were leveled the punishment is announced and people can see it you cannot accuse somebody who turns out to be innocent and then in the end they lose face society shall assume theyve been sentenced to death not all of them 5 a very well being so still one of them have been investigated and i believe 10 or 11 have been charged 5 have been sentenced to death why cant we know their names if you look at the jurors the verdict on them because the trial is not over theres going to be an appeal and there and it has to be reviewed by the Supreme Court this is how awkward systems work. Lets deal with the final explanation that you and others in. The government would have us believe that it was some other rogue operation this team of high level operatives some of whom had in the past travelled with the crown prince side they just had to go and kill was the question of the day they went out on a limb like that i believe they want to talk to him and they want to convince him to come back to reverse something went terribly wrong and an altercation happened and he was murdered they went with an autopsy expert who had a bomb soon and when i dont know about that i dont know about everybody else and i dont know where those are but he says i dont know about that the idea with that is that this was authorized is ridiculous this was a rogue operation that happened that should not have happened were going to be paying a great price for it its a terrible tragedy and the issue is we deal with it from with legal perspective jim murphy is family has come out and said we have confidence in the saudi judicial system but there is a crime really thats most affected by the exposure say this that in saudi arabia but but but but your but your agents didnt bother to hide what they did didnt bother to disguise their actions that or one of them according to transcripts of their bug conversation was talking into a telephone immediately after the murder saying tell your was the thing is done its done so who was it turns out this is not correct i dont believe the 6 correct i dont know this is this was from leaks i havent seen the t. V. Intercepts of the turks had but if turkey had all of this information why didnt they provided to jim ussher before he went to the consulate if they believe this is the case if you are insisting that its a broke operation answer me one question why were the people who were involved that didnt sneak in by night and sneak out again they came in in private jets diplomatic passports checking into they left a trail everywhere they left a trail everywhere so by monitoring him. Assuming they werent authorized to do it they were signing their own death was what rogue thats what rogue operatives would do that thats why theyre facing a number of them are facing the Death Penalty and others are facing not and why why would they do that whats the motive for writing your own death sentence i dont know i think they went into talk to him they went in to try to convince him to come back something went terribly wrong and he was killed and they are being on trial now and a number of them are facing that they were actually is that they fully intended to kill him otherwise why do you take it all obviously and i slew of having to go soon why do you have to assume the worst when it comes to saudi arabia operations gone wrong this is a pretty house feeling to have a good news assuming the worst here great worst grave was pretty bad and they got a lot of bad publicity for it but with not to you like a long time before then were dealing with the devil putting people on trial and we will be punishing them one of the key questions that keeps returning is whether the crown prince created an environment which allowed his agents to behave in the way they did in istanbul or you would tell me thats not true wouldnt you of course not the crown prince is a driving force behind changes her dream because the driving force behind empowering women and men and her behavior use history driving force behind economic opening and economic reform and of increasing repression against those who dare think and act in an independent fashion i disagree with that history driving force behind entertainment and recreation and hes a driving force behind technology in investments in technology and surgery of god hes the driving force for setting up to be the leading country in the 21st century mr logic in march 27th in u. S. Officials with access to classified intelligence reports told the New York Times that your crown prince had authorized a secret campaign to silence dissenters that included surveillance kidnapping. Tension torture socalled Rapid Intervention team im not going to comment the news reports attributed to Anonymous Sources some came from saudi officials as well Anonymous Sources seems there was a Standing Order to saudi intelligence to bring dissidents phone animists sources i cannot comment on Anonymous Sources old about one of them who was brought home now off shed a poet in 2018 he was on a trip to kuwait stopped at the airport forcibly returned to serbia arabia i dont have the details of this he was held incommunicado for 12 months no charge of anything i dont have the details on this case no saudi citizen is actually safe if they speak out against your government thats correct people come and see the king in his majesty the crown prince and his majesty communicate with them they tell them what they think they express criticism they provide ideas they provide suggestions this is what surgery b. Has been for centuries Amnesty International said last year the virtual Saudi Arabian human rights defenders and independent voices male and female are behind bars serving lengthy sentences handed down by your Specialized Criminal Court most were prosecuted they said for their peaceful human rights work and calls for reforms ill take issue with other countries on a major path to reform and anybody who calls for reform is part of that process why would we have reforms in saudi arabia and that could such people who call for reform there are other issues that people have been charged with and have been sentenced with and i believe that the reports that we get another very accurate really and so when you and if you have any issue with the terms of the legal issues you should really address them to the Public Prosecution last year they also quoted a saudi lawyer i g. Who has represented many defendants before your Specialized Criminal Court he said on the record the presumption of innocence is not part of the Saudi Arabian judicial system pledging words or that i disagree with his or her. And the presumption is always innocent until Proven Guilty when he says the opposite he has defended many people before you i thought unlike the positions of some of the n. G. Hos who assume that guilty before without presuming that its innocent we are guilty before the case was over so everybody has missed everybody who reports this massive crackdown or the massive crackdown on grip on the dissidents people we have if you have rights going to the International HumanRights Groups that all wrong i will be very example i will write i will give you an example and you tell me by the simple question in the 1990 s. We had radical preachers who were calling for jihad and please please can you please just want to take us in our different direction you moved us from the structure so allow me to finish i want to point out the hypocrisy in the 1990 s. We were criticized for having radical preachers inside weve been preaching hate. When we detained them we were criticized for taking away their freedom of speech its a damned if you do damned if you do situation if you dont situation do you want them to preach hate or do you want them to stop you cant have it both ways thats the park which is that perfect mr raja back in march last year 36 countries you know this should a joint statement expressing particular concern about your use of cold terror legislation against individuals peacefully exercising their rights and freedom 36 countries germany france u. K. Spain italy australia they also misjudge the situation in your country yet you seem to be badly misunderstood by some of the most expert biggest experts in the world yes they are really not about happened i dont think they know so little that they shouldnt be need to be more educated we have been fighting terrorists as credible is it i mean you can sit here and say that but thats insulting to their internally she says have laws and there is a line between freedom of expression and incitement and voter and we have laws in our country we have a court system and people have to obey the laws and the courts and sundry but the ones who do to keep these cases and nobody else was to push back at all the n. G. O. S and all the hidden by talk of stations and virtually every human rights activist is sitting in jail snottery. Why would they make it up do they make up things the songs really do nothing. What did they last may we are charged with detaining women for asking for the right to drive thats not true why would you detain somebody who asking for a right that the king all previous why would you because chinese do those as you did because thats not the childishness you do they will not be the judge but thats the very one isnt it no thats the wrong perception there were involved with foreign governments trying to recruit people in sensitive positions in court or to taint sensitive documents to be used by our enemies thats called espionage and the prosecution when the trials are over one percent the evidence you can call it what you libel you saying they were actually a threat to the saudi decision it seems to be yes thats the way that is thats what the prosecution is saying i dont have access to the courts i can only go by what the entity in saudi arabia that was filing charges and thats charged with prosecuting people in terms of trials and thats their position and they have been public about it last month mr you address the European Parliament in brussels and you strongly objected to the scrutiny and criticism that has come your way from any peace if you object to that so much why sign up to International Agreements which involve other countries monitoring your compliance or do you just. Except it only when its in your favor to mean monitoring the complaint monitoring compliance with agreements youve saw and touches such as. Torture for instance we were going to youre supposed to have outlawed torture but there are millions of accusations that torture is practiced and they can bring the new ideas they can bring the charges to a quarters had people the court would review wouldnt reinvestigated you tell the parliament stop criticizing our causes we are a sovereign nation that refuses to be pattern yes member of the United Nations you there we scrutiny we do not criticise other countries Legal Systems and we will not allow other countries to criticize our legal system if you dont want that kind of attention they will go abroad kidnapping your own people forcing them to go back to your country this is they have the legal system the Legal Process the both of those they do when they promise to serve to humans only of a. B. Others not. Accept people criticising a legal system we have not criticized the u. K. Or france or germany or sweden where youre perfectly at liberty to we dont because you want to look this is your system we have not criticized how people in europe treat minorities or immigrants we have not criticized europe or its rhetoric past when it came to massive crimes against humanity we dont do this. And we will not accept criticism of our legal system by others but if you go on doing these things how can you expect your expensive Charm Offensive to call on anything but deaf ears all the money you paid for p. R. Companies expensive B R Companies in washington d. C. Where you were ambassador falls on deaf ears doesnt it we dont have an expensive Charm Offensive we have Public RelationsCompanies Like other countries too and the amounts are not outrageous to amounts of normal we present our case to people and we have people coming to visit and we teach with people in dialogue for that they can see what century of us about we have seen Foreign Investment and surgery bago up we have seen foreign visitors up we have seen foreign entrepreneurs come to south korea but to set up shop but we all are not buying your message im totally with you protecting human rights some telling you this is these are the facts. There is unanimity among the human rights organizations around the world but you are in the middle of a massive repression of women who disagree with that you know you can decide what they think because their business we disagree with that our people our economy is doing well our country is attracting foreigners something to do with you says a 5th grader was so bad nobody would come why would Companies Invest go there are always going to do business always come i wish while you know that i would entrepreneurs come and set up shop and so because they can make money thats its nothing its nothing to do you see when i disagree dizzy i think im doing i think your mind is made up and you dont want to see the facts come to said you can see so we told you told the parliament stop lecturing and start working with us we have a court system the court system is and by that we dont allow anyone to question just what you just what you said to me how do you suggest europe works with you when you slam the door in its face like that. But in what sense land i started lecturing and start with yes we will not accept lectures so the lecture is a lecture telling you the results a lecture based on you the results that their research is a lecture based on lack of information of the sound legal system and how it works its a lecture based on information that they obtained either through hearsay or through inaccurate sources Government Agencies which once 36 countries that expressed their concern to you i thought id give you the details then there were other a large number of countries that offer the resolution counter to the us and those 36 countries were absolutely wrong well absolutely mistaken how could they get it so wrong theyve been going to your country for years talking to your people for years it beggars belief that you can put up this smoke screen and expect that viewpoint going to believe it and coming if you bear you can believe whatever you want but sell your hip is a country that is on a path of reform broadening our economy we are diversifying our economy from oil we are opening up new areas for investment we are empowering nobody worries and violent you know but it was the price of carbon to lety we are creating opportunity for our young people 70 percent of scientists are under the age of 7030. 00 they have hopes dreams and ambitions and the governments objective is to provide that was the ability to realize that you gives you keeps you keep saying this my question is why should europe work with a country that completely trashes its values and rights that are central to europes because they believe that that assessment is wrong and then where would the starting point be i believe that that is wrong 60 years ago we didnt have schools for girls today 55 percent of women of College Students of them. 80 years ago Life Expectancy was her dream was 37 years old thank you i ask where where do you sell it its where do you suffer today its in the in the mid seventys at the level of you when you start when in the view of major countries around the world new human rights organizations you have so little respect for the sick human right i dont i dont buy groceries dont mind i dont buy that assessment you spoke at the parliament you told them your view theyre not buying it just another bit of im not buying their view either major countries are not buying their view either so when they start theres no starting point if they look at if you look at education if you look at health care if you look at life explaining what were looking at to the human at all using the use you dont use all human rights if you look at media where people who want to use health care to them if theyre in jail for years without charges who have we have more than 20000000 saudis are they all in jail nobody said they were in jail youre telling me theyre all in jail i did i said human rights. Activists are in jail you see them and act as activists we dont as as i understand said hardly any of the we dont see them as like any of them are not behind bars with all due respect i stick to national we have a court system we have the Public Prosecution to partridge as against them the courts will adjudicate these cases and if they will listen to will be released and if theyre guilty they were punished its a surprise that and with all due respect Amnesty International their opinion does they say that the trials are inherently unfair it doesnt matter because it informs Public Opinion and Public Opinion around the world as you know is not exactly trusting what goes on in saudi arabia do you think played on the shelves by the same advice organisations who give Accurate Information about every country in the world or a state that has everything to lose if it admits to these human rights abuses i disagree with those willingness and were going to believe i think that we have great relations with them with a large number of countries we have the presidency of the g 20 were doing a lot of Major Projects and said we were doing a lot of reforms and to a great deal were improving the standard of living of our people were becoming quite of the global so what are you saying you dont care about what people think about your human rights say we dont have a problem with human rights we have a legal system we have laws that people have to obey if they dont obey those laws they will be charges filed against them and they would have to face the courts very simple in the United Kingdom the same thing would happen if somebody violates the law what do you do do i come to you and tell you this person was engaged in human rights when they killed somebody or when they spied for somebody or when they were not talking and go you know its a kingdom you are talking to you you would like to talk about every country except saudi arabia its not true im giving an example because i believe you have not been fair in your views of such behavior and in the positions youre my views this is the views that are going to it in the extensively questions that youve articulated. And i want to be able to show you that this is this universal issue here when you have a law the last few buy it if you dont like the law change it look as long as its on the books you have to pay it thank you very much for being. Sure of. What you. Want to fight. Funny you. Try to tell us. What binds the continent together. By answers and stories aplenty. Spotlight on people. In some cases much. 30 minutes on w. O. Level we were. When we were. 80 percent of americans in some point in our lives will experience hardship. Listen. Im asked that matters to. Us. How does a virus spread. Why do we panic and when well all miss trying to do 3 of the topics covered and weekly radio show is called spectrum if you would like and new information on the crown of irish or any other science topic you should really check out our podcast you can get it wherever you get your podcast you can also find us at. Slash science. Ive. Got. All we can be the generation that ends it for good malaria must start so millions can live. This is d w news live from berlin signs of hope in germanys fight against the coronavirus charts on marco warns the nation must remain vigilant she says its still too early to consider easing restrictions on public life but many of them are. Also coming out scientists in western germany take a look at the marriott hits particularly hard by the crown of iris and get some encouraging results well hear exactly what they discovered in a market. And inside in