Cleveland, the debate received a second highest rating for a president ial debate on television in history. The president made it clear today, he is happy with the ratings and how the night played out. I thought the debate last night was great, weve gotten tremendous reviews on it, were hitting what people want, law and order which biden was unable to talk about because the radical left followers, i dont think theres too many of them left. But i thought it was a great evening in an exciting evening and i see the ratings were very high and it was good to be there, its all very comfortable. I appreciate all the good words. Lou tonight we will be taking a President Trump debate performance with Trump CampaignSenior Advisor jason miller and President Trump last night taking out the Obama Biden Administration plot to undermine his presidency. Today fired fbi director james comey testified before the house Judiciary Committee, comey seemed hellbent on dodging any responsibility for his role in the corrupt conspiracy against President Trump. Remember i only know what i read in the Public Record and i dont know specifically and i dont remember learning anything additional about steel sources, or any forms of that, i dont remember being told anything like that. I dont remember anything of any sub source and because i dont agree with your predicate to the question i cannot answer that. Lou we will have much more tonight on comeys faltering memory, Judicial Watch tom fenton, congressman jason Jason Chavers and sara carter, more breaking news from capitol hill, House Speaker nancy pelosi and the radical dems are expected to vote tonight on the 2 trillion china virus relief package, the house is giving nancy pelosi and treasury secretary mnuchin more time to carve out a deal, at least that is what theyre saying, first guest holding a 90 minute meeting today with House Speaker pelosi, he is one of President Trumps lead negotiators for another round of china virus relief funding negotiations. Joining us tonight as treasury secretary steven mnuchin, good to have you with us mr. Secretary and give a sheer sense on where these talks are, it is very difficult to judge because nancy pelosi is saying it is our way or no way at all, your thoughts. It is always great to be with you, i did have a productive meeting with the speaker today as you mentioned i was there for an hour and a half and they went through very detailed proposal that had just come from the oval office and reviewed with mark meadows and the president , all three of us were very clear in what we wanted to do, i think it was a very fair proposal that provides a lot of relief for hardworking americans that have been hurt by the virus, particularly many of the Small Businesses, kids and jobs that are impacted by this. Lou the speaker has frustrated any effort to get the relief to those people and Small Businesses in particular, in addition to working men and women in this country who arent working, what it gives you can such an improved outlook on the prospects is of today. Its the first time weve seriously reengaged and what has been several weeks, i can tell you from our standpoint mark meadows and i have been very clear that the president would like to do a deal that is a fair deal and something that can help the American Public right now, were not going to do a 2. 2 trillion dollar deal, the good news is the speaker has come down from the 3. 4 trillion deal if there is a fair compromise we are prepared to do it. Lou a fair compromise, yet within that as i understand in the bill that couldve been voted upon tonight, there would be no money for Law Enforcement as there was in the early high package that nancy pelosi had presented to you, that is now absent, is seems to be going in a number of elements the wrong direction, 2. 2 is vastly higher than the number that the president wants, is there a median number that is magical in terms of reaching agreement . The president instructed us to come up significantly, we have come up from the trillion dollar deal that we have been working on earlier, he is very focused on wanting to make sure that all of the people impacted by covid, no fault of their own were delivering relief as i said before, our job is done until we get everybody back to work and we will keep trying. Lou when are your next talk schedule . I will speak to the speaker again tonight to touch base we had issues we were following up on and i dont think we will make significant progress until tomorrow at this point. Lou do you care to share the number, if its 2. 2, 1. 5, would that be a reasonable median . I indicated its in that neighborhood, i dont want to give the exact detail, it is in that neighborhood but is not just the amount of money until the money is being spent, we are very clear, we want to spend money on more ppp and we want to make sure the hotels, the airlines get business, there is money for schools so the kids can go to school safely. We want more money for testing of vaccines there are a lot of areas where we have an agreement and as i said is not just the overall number is the distribution of it. Lou the issue of distribution, the president has made it clear, he wants direct payments to those who need the money most critically, are direct payments, are they provided for . They are. The good news we reached an agreement if there is a deal, there are direct payments similar to last time that are in the package. Lou i want to turn to the spending bill that the senate just approved by of substantial vote, that gets us through december 11, this is an awkward process just before the president ial election. This is a very delicate balance we are looking at to fund the government Going Forward given all the challenges of the National Emergency with the china virus, the deep slowdown in this economy that is in recovery without question, where are we headed over the next couple of months in terms of the fiscal policy in the state of the economy and its direction. The good news, we got this er past, and had broad bipartisan support, the last thing anybody wanted was a Government Shutdown in the middle of covid, we funded after the election and thats when we will have serious discussion about funding the government for next year end i think the economy is doing a lot better, there is no question as you see reopening, you see an economy doing a lot better, there still are certain parts of the economy that are having difficulties and those are the things that we want to support in other areas in the economy that are doing great and i think you have a very big quarter off of coming off of the closing. Lou we thank you for that forecast and thank you for being with us, treasury secretary steven mnuchin, good to see you. Turning out to wall street where all three indexes rose on the day, and outright rally, the dow 329 points, the s p of 27, by the way the s p in the dow opening on the best performance over two quarters since 2009, the nasdaq up 82 points today, volume on the big board rising to 4. 8 billion shares, crude oil finishing up 3985 a barrel. Listen to my reports three times a day on the salem radio network. Up next more on jim comeys selective faltering memory today on capitol hill, we will be joined by jason chait fits, he is here next, reminder to buy my new book, the trump century how the president change the course of history forever at loudobbsshop. Com, loudobbsshop. Com, amazon. Com as well. Stay with us, well be right back. Yo its the ones that got away that haunt me the most. [ squawks ] cause youre not like everybody else. Thats why Liberty Mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. What . Oh, i said. Uh, this is my floor. Nooo only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Lou breaking news, radical dem senator Elizabeth Warren has become the latest from the party of eight to say she will not meet with President Trumps choice to join the Supreme Court amy coney barrett. Warren is the fifth democrat to absolutely categorically refused to meet with barrett, if you are keeping count, that is five radical dems down, 42 to go. Fired fbi director james comey on capitol hill testifying before the Senate Judiciary committee today, comey answered some questions about the fbis corrupt efforts to bring down the president throughout the questioning however, comey appeared hellbent to shed any responsibility for using the phony steele dossier as a predicate to lie to the fisa court into spy on the Trump Campaign, radical dems like senator dick durbin use the hearing to throw out a new allegation, a whole new conspiracy that he apparently is just fabricated. Durbin suggested President Trump as a target for russia because of a New York Times report about the president s taxes, durbin like the rest of the Senate Judiciary dems failing to ask comey about a single new element of the declassified information which Shows Hillary clinton creating the plan to tie President Trump to russia in the hacking of the dnc. Joining us tonight is former congressman, former chairman of the House OversightCommittee Jason chaffetz on fox business contribute her. Good to have you with us. A remarkable Performance Today by the former fbi director, i dont know that ive ever heard anyone go through quite as many, i dont know i forgot as he did in relatively quick order, your reaction. Hes fairly consistent in that, when i was the chairman we had director comey and when you would ask him a really specific question on which is very important to the question, he was a boy i gotta check on that, hes very consistent that way and very convenient but i can tell you im frustrated because we heard james comey eight times before the house and the senate bring up the other people that have intimate knowledge, they will be as professional intake insisting upon the congress, they will probably answer the questions, comey is a professional testified at this point and knows how to filibuster. Lou graham suggested Andrew Wiseman might be on his list and Andrew Mccabe is apparently ne next, i dont know if Andrew Mccabe knows that, your thoughts about the prospects of mccabe or wiseman. Yeah, i think they shouldve brought them up a year or two ago, we had the horowitz report, the mueller report, this is not new breaking news, the president has been in office for four years, why its taken until october of 2022 bring these people up for a public hearing, i do not know, the greatest respect for chairman graham but i gotta tell you, its about a year end a half to late, get them up there and get them up there now. Lou while i dont share necessarily your respect for chairman graham, i do find it absurd that were talking about a year end a half since he took over judiciary and remember he said he was going to investigate the investigators and get to the obamagate because and all of the characters who created, we now see comey, comey must have a locker on capitol hill, he is up there so much saying absolutely nothing. That is the frustration in the staff couldve been bringing in for transcribed interviews, i was the chairman and the oversight, we would bring in transcribed interviews and we can sit for hours and ask these questions and five minutes of questioning where the senators are going for a half hour or an hour and a time and allow staff and professional to really grill down, but i dont see that happening and i dont see why not scandalous things to happen in our government and our nations history and we are about two or three years late to the game and i gotta tell you i have Great Respect for attorney general barr but i dont understand why durham hasnt been able to turn out a report or charge people because we have evidence of people breaking the law, they should be charged and put in handcuffs and they should have to go through the trial process. Lou each of the congressman and you know devin nunes, jim jordan, actually mark meadows knows a great deal about the documents that are still classified if you will, why in the world, not just declassify those documents and the president moved forward and let the chips fall where they may, if durham is not going to produce a report there will be no charges, the records peoples right to know has been frustrated for four years and this president has had to live for four years, the dems are so concerned about transitions and about the president s demeanor, why is it ever anybody in the vn leftwing media that they tried to overthrow the president from the moment he took his oath from office and they tried to stop him from being elected, we have documentary evidence to that effect, no heavy lifting, the Justice Department should act, why are they not . Fortunately of the director of National IntelligenceJohn Radcliffe starting to release these pieces of information going through the methodical process, i thought in last nights debate, donald trump made a point, nobody grabbed onto it, there was no followup question on it, but i gotta tell you, he talked about the peaceful transition and what he had to deal with before he was even elected, before he was sworn in, they have been coming after him everything will step of the way and the president is absolutely right on this but the wheels of justice have got to actually churn and stop looking under the blindfold to see if theres a clinton or biden or obama involved to do what theyre supposed to do. Hunter biden included. Lou it is amazing what the left has gotten away with in this country. The radical dems are the party of hate and apparently there is no consequence for overthrowing a president at least at this particular moment in our history. You said is one of the great crimes in this nations history, it is the worst political crime in our countrys history and we are all assured, jason chave its always good to see you, thank you for joining us. I appreciate it. Last nights debate President Trump slammed the Obama Administration and the deep state for their years of trying to subvert and overthrow his presidency, this is tonight lou dobbs quote of the day. When i listen to joe talking about a transition, there has been no transition, i won the election and if you look at crooked Hillary Clinton and all the different people, there was no transition because they came after me trying to do a who in trying to spy on my campaign, they started from the day i went and even before i went in the day came down the escalator with our first lady. They were a disaster and a disgrace to our country, we have caught them and we caught them all. Lou caught them all. We would like to hear from you with all of this, share your comments and follow me on twitter at lou dobbs and follow me on instagram at lou dobbs tonight. Tomorrow we will be joined by devin nunes and davis hansen, we hope you will be with us as well. Up next tonight, President Trumps debate performance scoring big among voters, the term ca Campaign Advisor jason miller joins us right after these quick messages. Stay with us. [ thunder rumbles ] [ engine rumbling ] [ beeping ] [ engine revs ] uh, you know theres a 30minute limit, right . Tell that to the rain. [ beeping ] for those who were born to ride, theres progressive. Im not going to answer the question. Why would you not answer that question. The question is. The radical left. Would you shut up man. Who is on your list joe. Gentlemen. Will he just be quiet for minutes hard to get any word in with this clown. That was a productive segment wasnt it. Keep yapping man. Lou turning to the violence and chaos in democrat run cities over the past few months, President Trump last night and that debate slammed joe biden in the radical dem party for failing to stop it. You cannot say the word Law Enforcement because if you say those words you will lose all of your radical left supporters, minneapolis, we got it back because we believe in law and order and you dont, the top ten cities in the top 40 cities are run by democrats and in many cases radical left and they got you wrapped around her finger to a point where you dont want to see anything about law and order and ill tell you what, the people of this country want and demand law and order and youre afraid to say it. Lou the president S Performance over last nights debate scoring well among those who did watch and a lot of folks watched, two thirds of the hispanic viewers who watched preferred President TrumpS Performance giving him a 66 approval and biden only 34 and wgn news poll found 61 of viewers same President Trump won saint 33 favoring biden, cspan viewers voting 33 President Trump and 29 joe biden. Other news outlets favored slightly biden but of course as we put it here they are not reliable in the tip of the hat to the Washington Post for the lou dobbs tonight word of the day reliable which means consistently good in quality, performance and to be trusted, the Washington Post saying the only reliable polls are those that would joe biden winning no matter the margin, joining us tonight jason miller, he is reliable, Senior Advisor to the Trump Campaign, great to have you with us, it is impressive to see the talk already if joe biden will drop out of the next two debates and what should the Debate Commission do, it sounds like they think that biden got pummeled, what do you think . Exactly, let me take you inside and give you the inside perspective on all the debate back and forth from last night, here we are, the day after the first debate which typically the income net present it does not win and obama did not win his first debate in 2012 and bush did not and 2004 but President Trump broke the mold once again in a very dominant fashion. Here is the thing is we look at this, the Mainstream Media in the left of center hacks, the joe biden camp, they were so convinced that it would be bad headline after brodhead lined with President Trump and the fact that joe biden is having to explain that he will probably go to to the second and third debate is a terrible president and where they are standing in this, President Trump had them on the ropes the entire debate, just to be clear on this point, anyone says at the debate last night was bad for america, that is liberal code for joe biden got his butt kicked but we cannot admit it. Lou it is amazing to see these numbers coming in because we saw the leftwing media talking about how there was so much roughandtumble and that debate, we are just sure that people were quick enough on that debate and not watching it, it turns out this was the second highest rated debate in the countrys history, the first of course with Hillary Clinton in 2016, your thoughts about the entertainment value of last nights debate . It was fun im a partisan and i love President Trump and i think is doing a great job for the country, i think for all the media coverage, this was finally the moment where we got those two men on stage and we got to see could joe stand up under the lights, did President Trump have a strong grasp in command of his administration. What we sell really surprised folks in the fact that President Trump pounded joe biden over and over on substance on the issues and the things that people really care about, joe biden needed to come out of last nights debate making progress on Covid Recovery and economic recovery and President Trump won of them in both cases and joe biden failed to advance that, not only is joe biden bad on Law Enforcement, could not say it and it could be like Law Enforcement and justice because hes bailing out to the criminals in minneapolis, he and kamala harris, he is bad on Law Enforcement and Covid Recovery and millions of people wouldve died if we wouldve followed joe biden strategy and he wants to keep the country shut down, he is bad on the economy, President Trump talked about how he built the greatest economy ever and how he will do it again and i think people say you know what the issues that matter to me, they take away for how peoples lives will be impacted in a positive way, President Trump gave him a pretty clear path to follow. Lou it was surprising to me that joe biden would not mention the name xi jinping who after all is the man who authored the china virus pandemic and unleashed it on an unsuspecting world, he seemed obviously concerned about the president S Performance in reacting to that vicious act by the peoples republic of china leader. Were you surprised that the democrats and particularly in joe biden did not want to mention xi jinping name as she talked about the china virus pandemic. It did not surprise me at all, i think the chinese have something on joe biden, the fact of the matter hunter came out of china with 1. 5 in investments toward his fun and the fact that joe flew him over on air force to an hunter was able to walk out, even going back before where is hunter nonsense where he started making a whole bunch of money, look at the oped the joe biden roman 2011 when he said chinas rise is not our demise, go back to his support on china with nf and or wto in the entries in all and their real grandeur, the state of ohio lost a third of all of their manufacturing jobs just because of nafta and chinas entry into the wto, think that joe biden is supported in both cases, you will see more in the election day specified into the various states. Lou jason miller great to have you with us. Thank you so much. We look forward to talking again soon. Joe biden fbi director ron ray shared the same wrong views about antifa, is that a coincidence, we take it up with Judicial Watch tom fitton, we e will be back in one moment. Stay with us. Over 100,000 people have left blood thinners behind with watchman. Its a onetime, minimally invasive procedure that reduces stroke risk and bleeding worryfor life. Watchman. Its one time. For a lifetime. Connected approach to your aetna medicahealth and wellness. With medicare plans designed to simplify medicare and help you age actively. So you can keep pursuing the life you love. Aetna medicare solutions. Lou President Trump giving us the lou dobbs tonight quotation of the day, here is the president last night in his duel would joe biden about brainpower. Did you use the word smart . So you said you went to delaware state but you forgot the name of the college, you did not go to delaware state, you graduated you to the lowest or almost lowest in your class, dont ever use the word smart with me. Dont ever use that word. There is nothing smart about you joe, 47 years you have done nothing. Lou the president also condemning the radical Left Organization antifa and the danger it represents for america and american security, biden denied antifa is an organization and a group, parroting the words of fbi director ron ray saying antifa is an idea not an organization no matter how organized they are. Joining us tonight is tom fitton, the president of Judicial Watch and tom it is great to have you with us. His new book of the republic under assault, the ongoing attack of American Freedom available for preorder right now, we encourage you to do so and recommend tom spoke to you highly. Lets start with james comey added again, on capitol hill today remembering very little, i am worried about the state of his memory that could be a Serious Health problem, your thoughts . He is not going to get up there and confess to crimes. He knew everything that was going on, he was intimately involved in all aspects of the investigation, in fact he was playing his own personal spy game against the president of the United States directly in going to confront him with the shady dossier that he knew was false and then running and telling peter strzok about it almost immediately after the meeting, this person go ahead. Lou i want to, if we may, turned to the information that John Radcliffe the director of National Intelligence declassified and which is now before us which did not receive a lot of reference in the hearing today, according to his handwritten notes, former cia Agency Director brandon subsequently briefed president obama and other Senior NationalSecurity Officials on the intelligence included the alleged approval of Hillary Clinton on july 26, 2016 of a proposal from one of the Foreign Policy advisers to vilify donald trump by stirring up a scandal claiming interference by Russian Security services. So it was not only fraudulent but fraudulent from the beginning and it was referred then to the fbi, that would mean james comey and his successor christopher wray, nothing happened, what do you make of that . It has been our theory of the case that hillary went and made it all up. To freeze the Justice Department, to freeze the Justice System for prosecuting her for the email. Especially after trump one to desperation increase because they knew potentially they were going to be subject to criminal investigation, what do you do you take out general flynn, you freeze Jeff Sessions from doing anything by falsely accusing him of misconduct and leaking information about him, you get the special counsel appointed and freeze the department completely for years, the troubling thing the Justice Department still frozen, why are we only finding out about this detail now, if durin if jerome g his job they wouldnt do about it the minute they got in. This is the worst kept secret in washington and the fact that is coming out a month before the election says more about the deep state coverup then the underlying issue which is always been apparent that Hillary Clinton was a crook and trying to get away with it by smearing trump. Lou the president has been right, not for four years but better than six years because he has been talking about crooked hillary throughout and he does right as anyone could possibly be, someone elses right, it appears, Andrew Weissman and all the good investigators and attorneys of the special counsel office, their phones were wiped and i understand there is a magnificent organization, a watch dog group that has succeeded in finding out what is happened to the white phones of those terrific federal employees serving only truth justice and the american way, that would be Judicial Watch, what you got. We uncovered the phones to begin with and what i think is Andrew Weissman today is telling the media that the Justice Department probably has all the stuff on their system somewhere. So thats what we suspect, i want to know why it is, again they covered the solid for a year plus, both the ig and the Justice Department and just released it too late before Law Enforcement can do anything about it in a substantive way. You know what theyre trying to do in my view. Lou have you avoid them, theyre trying to cover up things that they shouldve been doing. Have you forward them to get those funds . Im not sure if theres been an exact for the phones but we do have a foia pending for the materials about the leading Text Messages and such and you raise a good question that material has been deleted and did that screwup are for you and our court case, that is something we will have to look at, they have been delaying the release of information because they know the election will prevent anyone from doing anything about it and they are praying that trump loses so the biden people can come in and squelch it all. Lou you dont believe that the attorney general and john durham have the guts to proceed with the interim report laying out what they will be doing with what they have already found. We are out of time but we got time for your answer. The proof is in the pudding were not seen a demonstrated commitment to transparency and accountability from the Justice Department and as far as im concerned in terms of this, a whole issue of transparency and corruption i have not seen much difference between the two Justice Department between obama and the current leadership, it is been awful. Lou tom fitton we have to close on bad news, thank you so much for being with us in providing to much good news. Up next Lindsey Graham says hes ready to question another antitrump deep state actor, but its only a year end half later and only if its okay with other senators, it is that kind of club, a little swampy club, we will take that up after the break with sara carter. Stay with us. Lou senator Lindsey Graham said he had considered asking former mueller prosecutor and trump hater Andrew Weissman to testify before the Senate Judiciary committee but only if the other senators on the Committee Want to really hear from Andrew Weissman, Andrew Weissman remains insistent that mueller should have done more to frame President Trump and Andrew Weissman white data from his government issued phones before they were handed over to the Justice DepartmentInspector General michael horowitz, do you wonder why he would do that . Being a Law Enforcement officer and officer of the court, stunning stuff, were going to turn to sara carter, Investigative Reporter fox business contributor for the answers. Great to see you tonight. What is going on with the phone. With the crazy Judiciary Committee that has to have a consensus before they try to find the truth, it is peculiar dont you think. Is very peculiar, but start with the first part of your question, what is going on with our bureau, fbi, department of justice, the prosecutors that were on the mueller team, these are institutions that the American People had trust in, our Intelligence Community whats going on with the deepseated bureaucratic corruption and a weaponization of the system against the American People, this is not about President Trump, this is about the American People that voted for him and the anger of this bureaucracy, the swamp at the American People and what we see now a year later, a year later after promises made over and over again even when chairman Lindsey Graham who i spoke into many times made promises over and over and were gonna bring people in question them a w g expnana t depetm of justindceernder sesffesssinds wamilr, norttertet clorlo dse phesepl pese pe untae,ta basta balastata t the e t ialki ial akibongngngngng time comho was w h s helve ti osyilarimoim hillary car conhen thehe tbi tbi t t quoned hon, h sererteeleldeldd y ssing hininisestimood todod aearhitititit hisohor others thers up uphphp j cla,ppc dhatevwh stowhri stori s stedted ddybody ybaty atcycy dillyddiallllyydinllgydingydungn ex o t ohe a ome amenme pme pe. E is whast ihashaseallyea goingnn. E. I tnk thenk ahe acacaple havav hanoughnoug of off kno k president tru has h hasnoughh t thi som ttottooooo something. Who cares if theres 30 something days left to the election, there was a crime committed against the country and against the American People and people should pay the price for that. Lou at this point, the current officers and officials of the Justice Department and the fbi are moving ever closer to that line on the other side of which culpability for a coverup, this is not simply slow rolling, not even stonewalling, this is now obstructing justice in the publics right to know which is the sacred right and the great Constitutional Republic of ours, it is four years since the president reminded everyone last night, four years since the left and the radical dems started to subvert him and tried to block his election and overthrow his presidency, it is outrageous, lets turn if we can very quickly to the phones, the special counsel apparently erasing all of these phones but it occurs to me that the nsa has records on these, the nsa has records of nearly every conversation and text that has been sent or received certainly in the nations capital, why are they not been produced and why arent the American People learning what is there, instead we get stories about foia that employee of this and meanwhile the greatest crime against this Constitutional Republic in our president is now over four years in duration. Rights, if any one of us wouldve obstructed justice and thank god for Judicial Watch for getting the facts out there but if anyone of us wouldve wiped her phone clean or computers when the fbi requested to see it, we would go to jail, that is just the facts, we would go to jail, instead we had to wait all these years to find out the truth of what happened on Robert Mueller steam and the malfeasance that took place with the fbi and these people are writing books, they have contributed ship and cable news outlets and they are not being held accountable. You tell me if theres a twotier system of justice. Lou we will take that up on our next discussion soon, i appreciate it. Good to see you. Sara carter and we want to remind you about the trump century, the book is out, how our president change the course of history forever, get your copy at loudobbsshop. Com, stay with us well be right back. Loudobbsshop. Com. No. In the basement. Why cant we just get in the running car . Are you crazy . 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Claim your seventyfivedollar credit when you post your first job at indeed. Com promo lou we thank you for being with us this evening, congressman devin nunes and Victor Davis Hanson among our guest tomorrow, a reminder to follow me on twitter at lou dobbs, like me on facebook and follow me on instagram at lou dobbs tonight, and by my new book to trump century, how our president change the course of history forever, get your copy at loudobbsshop. Com, the dog shot. Com and as well as amazon. Com, barnesandnoble. Com. Again thank you for being with us, see you tomorrow. Good night from sussex. Liz the story dominating todays headlines, the debate so badly derailed that the Commission President ial debate is now reportedly considering possibly cutting off the microphone the candidates to stop any future problems and stop future debates from turning into an unproductive chaotic mess, last night caused an interruption every minute, we have the hill media reporter joe concha on that as republicans and democrats alike roundly criticized the debate has not been a debate but a brawl, what