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Talented person. Shes a little shy but thats okay. The people call hope hicks to the witness stand. Donald trump made sure he was easy talking to todd blanche and hope hicks very deliberately avoided any regard , any look at him. Tonight, gripping testimony from a trump insider on the trump campaigns attempt to catch and kill. Suddenly, she just started crying. It felt like a confession she had come forward and said this. What the jury heard about campaign panic over Access Hollywood. I said it, i was wrong and i apologize. Then new reporting on how to project a second trump term and how to predict trumps second pick for vp. Kristi noem is a little too based, shooting the puppy. Your ghostwriter must really not like you if they include that one. That was rough. All in starts right now. Good evening from new york, and chris hayes. Today, we heard the most colorful, explosive testimony yet in the trial of donald trump. It came from one of the prosecutions star witnesses, one of the people closest to compton the 2016 campaign, his press secretary, hope hicks. Prosecutors laid out in the very first sentences of their Opening Statement when the trial began, this case is about donald trump vision of a criminal scheme to correct the 2016 president ial election. They described as a conspiracy to influence the election by concealing negative information about mr. Trump in order to help get him elected. What are they arguing . It is that Donald Trumps motive for committing the 34 counts of falsifying Business Records from it was to win the white house. The prosecutors are showing the jury the crime of falsified records stemmed from a key moment in the president ial campaign. It was just one month before the election when the Washington Post published the access Hollywood Video capturing trump on a hot Microphone Bragging about sexual assault. The release of that video, if you recall, and it has been a memory hole, nearly brought down trumps campaign. Republicans across the country came out of the woodwork to rebuke them, withdrawing their support. There were numerous calls for trump to drop out of the race. The Republican National Committee Even considered replacing him with his running mate, mike pence. He was hanging on by his fingernails. One more blow could have been the end of the trump candidacy. One of the great but if counterfactuals in american history. That was the moment the prosecution brought the jury back to today with the person who was in the center of the storm, hope hicks. When hope hicks took the stand, she confessed to being really nervous explained she had not seen or spoken to her former boss since 2022. Hope hicks testified she first learned about the access Hollywood Tape from a Washington Post reporter requesting comment and was stunned, when she heard it. She believed it was going to be a huge story that would dominate the news cycle for at least the next several days. at a Damaging Development for the campaign that was going to be hard to overcome. There was consensus among us all this was going to be a crisis. The coverage was so intense it just a Natural Disaster out of the news cycle. We were anticipating a category 4 hurricane around that time and no one remembers it because it was all trump in the news. I saw that today when i was reading through the transcripts of the Court Reporting and i said that is true, i dont remember. Just weeks later, hope hicks learned the Wall Street Journal, was planning to publish this article about the very catch and kill scheme that is the subject of this indictment to purchase playboy model Karen Mcdougal story about an affair with trump. The article mentions Stormy Daniels and her interest in reviewing her story about her relationship with trump. Hope hicks testified she went to jared kushner, hoping he could get in touch with executives at the journal to delay publication, itself an interesting thing. When that didnt work, she and trump fixer Michael Cohen crafted a statement in response to the article. She recalled trump had input on the statement, which was a full throated denial. That, he asked for the addition of the Wall Street Journal featuring that very story not to be delivered to his residence where his wife lived. Now, the leader portion of the testimony focused on her reflections about Michael Cohen she said Michael Cohen told her he made 130,000. 00 payment to Stormy Daniels to protect trump from false allegations and did it out of the goodness of his heart. Hope hicks explained, i would say that would be out of character for michael. I did not know michael to be a charitable or selfless person. He is the kind of person who seeks credit. During Cross Examination by trump lawyer emil bove , she went on to say that Michael Cohen liked to call himself a fixer. It was only because he first broke it. So it was another tough day for the former president although he did manage to fit in some rest for what he calls his beautiful blue eyes while his former close aide testified against him. He let out anger in another rant against the judge. The judge is highly conflicted. He should not be allowed to be the judge of this case. He has tried to make it as salacious as possible by allowing testimony that has nothing to do with the case. He wants to make it a salacious case, try and hurt trump but its having the opposite effect, i think. We will see. The poll numbers are higher than they have ever been. And, that is the story. He is allowing things in that have nothing to do with this case, nothing to do with it. Poll numbers are not higher than they have ever been. The Polling Average is neck and neck. Nothing the judge is doing, just to be clear, is making this case against trump salacious. What is salacious is what actually happened, which is the subject of the criminal indictment. Where in donald trump directed his effexor to pay off a star so he could win the election. She has extensively covered hope hicks over the years. Kristy greenberg is a former beauty chief for the u. S. Attorneys office in the Southern District of new york. They both join me now. Great to have you here. Let me start with you because you were at the courthouse and walked in adult onset and you were like what a day. It felt, we are reading this in real time for people in the room, we dont have cameras. We dont have a transcript but it felt that way getting the text dispatches. What was it like in that building . It was incredibly powerful testimony from hope hicks because before she even got to the meat of it, she had said so many nice things about donald trump to start. Hes a master at branding, he knows communications. A lot of really obsequious comments in showing that she still cares for the. Then when she starts making these statements that are damaging to the case for the defense, it has that much more power. She is not the Sleaze Ball Lawyer who has the sleazy Tabloid Clients or the tabloid journalist. Shes somebody who cared about him and yet she is just, you know, there was a nail in the coffin and where in 2018, there is a conversation that it is just her and trump. Is the president of the United States at this point. She is working for him in the white house. Yes and Michael Cohen has gone to the New York Times and said i made this payment to Stormy Daniels. And donald trump says well, this would have been damaging if it had come out during the campaign and it is good it is coming out now and then. That was the last question from the executor. It was just a Microphone Drop moment. Jawdropping moment that she had said that. So, it was incredibly powerful. To follow up on that, she started crying after she said that. All the tension in her gets released that limit. Exactly. At that point, she, the Cross Examination starts. Theres a question or two about when did you start working with the Trump Organization and that is when she starts crying. At least watching it, it did not seem like that was the question that made her cry. I think it was the fact that she knew she dropped this bomb and that the weight of that really and that release, as you say, you could just see it in her expression. You have covered hope hicks for a long time. How central was she to the operation, how crucial a witness is she in this Case Question she was in proximity and in every other way, as close as you could get to that family without having a last name trump. She was much closer to donald trump a lot of his own children. Referring to tiffany. She was a lot closer than a lot of the children. She was around all the time. She started at the Trump Organization and became very close to ivanka and built her reputation in the family. She found herself in this dark sitcom, donald trump said we are going to iowa and she said what do people where in iowa . She did not intend to work on the president ial campaign and did not intend to work at a white horse. It is not her dream and she ended up there in this incredibly toxic, ultimately violent environment and saw a lot and has a near photographic memory, even if that did not always come through in her testimony. I think it was probably very hard for trump, if he has emotions, to see her in that position. Shes not Michael Cohen. Lawrence said this when we played the open, there was avoidance of eye contact. She said she hadnt talked to him since 2022. It seems to me that there are two key parts of the prosecutions case that hope hicks helps prosecution with. One is was this about the campaign . That is key to the motive. The other was was this being done by other people or date trump have a role . My understanding is the testimony spoke to both of those but on the second can you talk about the first one, on the second one, it is pretty clear from her testimony at least according to her that he was involved, this was not an Off Book Operation Freelanced by Michael Cohen. She talks about the fact that when the injury first comes in before the Wall Street Journal publishes that the National Enquirer is trying to squash this story about Karen Mcdougal, when that inquiry first comes in, donald trump goes to hope hicks and says what did david pecker tell you . That is significant because he wants to make sure that david pecker is sticking to the story. This was a legitimate business contract, we wanted her on the magazine cover, we wanted to make sure that she , he wanted to make sure that the contract, which just says this was a legitimate business opportunity, promotional opportunity, that david pecker was telling the story because hope hicks is in the dark and then after the article is published, the Wall Street Journal article, after this is published, this is a few days before the election, november 4th 2016, after the article was published, what does donald trump say to hope hicks . How is it playing . That is what he would say whatever he wanted to find out how something was being received in the past. Again, related to the election. Now, she also testified, as you mentioned at the opening, maybe make sure the newspaper doesnt go to melania. You can have both purposes so long as the campaign is front and center, which it clearly was and which hope hicks testified that it was. His focus was also on getting david phone number after the article came out. He asked hope hicks, give me david phone number and then afterwards says its all good. We talked, its all fine. Its all good, which is what david pecker testified. This collaboration of what we have already heard from from david pecker showing donald trump is right in the center of this. And hope hicks, part of what was fascinating to me again as i was reading this through our internal slack channel, it was a reminder of the sheer chaos and crisis and almost Tipping Point moment of the access Hollywood Tape and the fact that that article that does come out before the election ultimately ends up spaced out in of that it wouldnt, like if that had come out the day after Access Hollywood or two days after or three days after, that could have been it. You were there covering it, that could have been it. They got lucky with the timing of that. Also, remember at that time, it is easy to forget, i have repressed a lot of it, i think most americans have, it was one allegation after another. It was more than two dozen allegations that he had some sort of sexual impropriety and it was just one thing after another. They are running against hillary clinton, it is not like they think they are going to do well with women voters overall but it is this sort of torrent of negative information and this is yet another thing. Let me ask you about the moment when hope hicks cried. I understand you have been doing some reporting about that. My understanding was she did not want to testify. She was compelled to testify. It is not as though she raised her hand and said yes, i want to help ruin Donald Trumps life. This is the one who has been important to her, even if she does maintain very complicated, conflicted feelings about him. My understanding was that being asked about the opportunities that he had given her in her life brought all of that back and made her very emotional, that it was not a direct response to the realization. That is how the cross started, which is kind of like twisting the knife. This guy that gave you everything, you are up here testifying against him. Olivia, great to have you. Kristy greenberg will stay with us for the next block. We will go through the salacious testimony and the latest on trumps gag order and his misunderstanding of it. Thats next. Thats next. I recommend prevagen. Number one, because its effective. Does not require a prescription. And ive been taking it quite a while myself and i know it works. And i love it when the customers come back in and tell me, david, that really works so good for me. Makes my day. Prevagen. At stores everywhere without a prescription. Auntie, you cant put that right in the dishwasher. Watch me. 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This judge who is totally conflicted has been under an unconstitutional gag order. Nobody has ever had that before. It is such a record. Im not allowed to testify because of an unconstitutional gag order. Donald trump claiming the gag order in his new york Criminal Trial prevents him from testifying, a claim he knew was false when he said it to reporters outside the courtroom yesterday because this morning, he admitted to reporters the gag order would not stop him from testifying. Today in the trial, the judge, same judge who trump repeatedly slams us conflicted and running a record, addressed the defendant directly on what trump said yesterday, saying, it came to my attention there may be a misunderstanding. I want to stress, mr. Trump, you have an absolute right to testify at trial, the order is restricting extradition judicial statements that do not prevent you from testifying in any way, to Which Trump Moused thank you. Joining us now, catherine christian, who spent over 30 years as a prosecutor, Glenn Kirschner is back with us who was in the courtroom today. Let me just start on the shenanigans in terms of the going outside and claiming the judge as rigged it and you cant testify. This seemed to be a clever thing for judge juan merchan to do, to set the record straight in his own courtroom. It shows the judge is paying attention. Also, you dont want, assuming there is a conviction, donald trump stating the fact that his lawyer told him that. I would have testified but my lawyer told me. On the record, the judge makes it clear. Of course, we know that donald trump, it wasnt a misunderstanding, he was deliberately mistaking the fact. It also seems like theres no way hes going to testify. No way. He understands that probably looks a little bad because he said hes going to testify. It does look from the jury purposes, the jury is instructed not to read anything into the defendant not testifying. That is an airport and part of your First Amendment rights. From the public, they dont have to do that. We are allowed to draw our own conclusions and he understand it doesnt look good. He wants his followers to know he would have but for the fact that he has been gagged. The judge cleared that up. It is like when someone goes into a fight but they put their arms back. You had some, an interesting piece about his lawyers. And, you said this, that the judge needs to rein in his lawyers. According to recent New York Times report, donald trump vented he does not have a roy cohn, who was indicted and disbarred. Trump griped his lawyer todd blanche has been insufficiently aggressive, todd blanche has employed the same tactics that made roy cohn infamous. What did he mean by that . What were the tactics that made roy cohn infamous . Delay tactics, never apologize for anything and break the rules. Dont follow the rules. Todd blanche has done all those things. He attacked the prosecutors, claiming they engaged in Discovery Misconduct by not turning over documents , which todd blanche is a former prosecutor, he knew he could have gotten those documents himself and waited until two months before the trial to do it in two weeks before the scheduled trial date to tell the court that this was an issue that would cause a delay. Blatant delay tactic. He attacked the judge, try to recuse them not once but twice and he soon the judge and said that is on appeal so another delay tactic. We have to delay the trial. Then, hes unapologetic in defending trumps attacks on jurors, on witnesses and, in his Opening Statement, and i think this is the most significant thing that gives me pause, in his Opening Statement, he broke the rules. There are rulings from judge juan merchan about defenses and arguments you cant make, evidence the jury shouldnt here because it could prejudice the states case. He had a bunch of those arguments, misstated the law, misstated the facts. He got objections sustained four times, there were two sidebars. What is to prevent that from happening down the road . We are coming up to Michael Cohen being on the stand. Theres evidence about why didnt fdny charts donald trump. Sdny said nasty things about him. Whenever we make another mistake and we just say something, right i didnt really mean to break the rules. Just like in the opening. Got that happening in the opening plus donald trump saying you have to be more aggressive. What is that made you question what you told me, you told us the other night during a special, this is part for the course. Roy cohn was a disbarred attorney and he was just not what you want in a model attorney. Im not going to say that about 27. Welcome to the world of New York State criminal court. It is stepping on the line, almost crossing it. So, i would never be you think this is part for the course for defense that you have seen in your career. Exactly. The two refusals and assuming the judge is not a normal thing. It is called an article 78 motion and if you can make a straight face argument, that is not roy cohn land. I disagree with that. Hes on that line and that is history. How do you think the case is going with the report using about hope hicks, which seems like a key prosecution witness . She was excellent. She places donald trump knowing about the payment. She was a very objective. She has her own attorney. She is not Michael Cohen and she is not david pecker or davidson. There is no sleaze around hope hicks as well. This is some of the testimony which he testified after the release of the access Hollywood Tape she spoke about another rumored trump tape and asked for such a tape. They are running around worried that this was the first of another shoe to drop. I thought this was fascinating. This doesnt speak to the criminal case but is interesting color along the lines of david pecker admitting the fact they just fabricated stories. This is recalling a phone call between trump and david pecker shortly after the National Enquirer published a story about ben carson. She said she overheard the conversation including Trump Congratulating david pecker. She says she thinks trump was praising david pecker, saying this is pulitzer worthy. Shes establishing the relationship between him and david pecker. That testimony in particular, she said great reporting, trump is in communication with david pecker about the stories, corroborates what we heard in the opening and what we heard from david pecker about this conspiracy had three goals. David pecker is the eyes and ears of the campaign, he will squash any negative stories but hes also going to put out negative stories about Donald Trumps opponents and positive stories about donald trump. There were three goals, shes corroborating one of those goals. Donald trump is on the phone with david pecker, she hears the conversation where hes saying great job , youve made these negative stories be published in your magazine. At some level, it is an obvious point that it is an important one. I didnt have any reason myself to doubt what david pecker was saying. Sounds like what hes saying but to have david pecker and someone else essentially corroborate each others stories about the Setup S Credibility in his and the whole case. That is with the prosecutor, however will do the closing arguments, will argue about how people corroborated each other, the documents corroborate the testimony and then therefore, you can believe this is a credible case when proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Hope hicks was very, very important for the prosecution today. It is not over yet, though. The cross started today. It ended. Cross ended today. Yes. Shes done. Thought she still had more. The cross is done. Do you feel the cross was effective . Not really. It is hard when the witness is crying and, again, i worked with both Defense Attorneys that are on this case and it is hard to do that when shes so emotional if you are trying to do things to impeach her credibility. One thing that stood out to me was weve got a member of that team, we have yet to hear from her. We are on day 10. She has not examined any witnesses, you heard from susan necheles, she doesnt go up much during the sidebars with the court, she doesnt talk to donald trump. The lawyers dont seem to be talking to her. In that moment, she would have been the natural person to crossexamine hope hicks and yet she is just there. It is an irony that you have a trial about hush money payments and yet the female lawyer on the defense team is silenced. That is not a good look. Just like the gender dynamics throughout the tire set of thing that we know and the things that are alleged. You have a woman lawyer who is there. This is something that comes up all the time. Harvey weinstein had a lawyer like that. She is an excellent lawyer. She did appear, she did a brief Cross Examination of the executive system, very brief. But, that could have been a Junior Attorney who did that. Susan necheles is very excellent. Is also the most experienced of the three in terms of defense. And on the prosecution side, quite frankly, susan officer is excellent. She spent 20 years as a cross examiner. Im surprised she hasnt had a meaty witness yet. A lot more time to go. Thank you both, appreciate it. Still ahead, despite her best, doing her best at being a straight shooter, south dakota governor kristi noem continues to find herself in a bigger hole. Is this the end of the road for a woman who holds higher political aspirations . Aspirati . Plus free exams and xrays for new patients without insurance. And 20 off Treatment Plans for everyone. Quality care at a price worth celebrating. 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Special mothers day gifts that go beyond the usual suspects. Save on personalized jewelry, original decor and other things moms actually love. When you need a gift as unique as she is. Etsy has it. psst psst ahhh with flonase, allergies dont have to be scary. Spraying Flonase Daily gives you long lasting nondrowsy relief. Flonase all good. Also, try our Allergy Headache and nighttime pills. Lets look on the bright side. South dakota stayed Open For Business during the pandemic. Now we have more jobs than people. So, im filling in until you get here. South dakota is the freest state in america and the best state to live, work, and raise a family. South dakotas republican governor was so dead set on being trumps Vice President , she didnt run against him in the primary even though there is talk she might be a contender. Instead, she Just Launched herself directly into the sweepstakes, running that had during the first republican primary debate on fox news with the clear hope donald trump would be watching and see it. The official South Dakota State website even published a release announcing that ed ran during the debate in case anyone missed it. Shes been running multiple ads on fox, sensibly toting jobs in her state but, really, talking herself. That campaign for the number two slot was supposed to kick off in proper next week with the release of her new memoir no going back. In kristi noems defense, the book is generating a bunch of headlines. Tran35 describes executing puppy she hated in the book. And south dakota governor kristi noem defends her account of killing a dog. And finally, tran35 vp chances appear as dead as the dogs he killed. I am not a professional political consultant but im pretty sure proud puppy killer is not what most americans want from their Vice President. Tara, now Senior Advisor for the lincoln project, she joins me now. I should lay out her account is that she had a dog, it was a hunting dog, it was a puppy, 14 months, if im not mistaken, that twice attacked animals and then she shot it in a gravel pit. She also shot a goat and theres a bunch of horses they had to put down. First, what do you think about the politics of this . I think the headlines you just ran speak for themselves. These are horrible people. They are just awful. Their nihilism and bloodlust is pathological at this point because, really, the cruelty is the point, right . This is a perfect example of that. Kristi noem could make any excuse she wants. She can try and walk it back she wants or blame it on the Fake News Media all she wants or blame it on her ghostwriter or the editors or the publishers but, no, she made the choice to put this in her book, a book she has already voiced, there is an Audio Version of it so she was well aware of what was in it and she just made the decision to brag about being a Puppy Executioner. It is sadistic and shes out here trying to be a political clout chaser, basically trying to curry favor with donald trump in some weird, sadistic way because he is a horrible and decent person so shes bragging about being a horrible, decent person who will do the hard things by shooting her puppy in a gravel pit. This is a perfect example of maga and i hope maga is thrown into the gravel pit of history after november this year because that is where it belongs. It is sickening. You mean the ideology, that is a metaphor. Shooting a dog here, that is a metaphor about the ideology. Metaphorically, yes. You are from a family, i learned this today, you are from a family of dog handlers and came up as a girl showing dogs, your family as this was showing dogs, is that right . My grandmother was basically a hall of fame dog handler. She handled pomeranians, she showed at the prestigious Westminster Dog Show many times. She trained field and rescue german shepherds when my grandfather was on the police force in my hometown and she was in the womens auxiliary. She was a tough cookie, shes only about 51 and my aunt is a championship nationally recognized Obedience A Trainer and has dogs that are Obedience Champions right now and she is competing in westminster 10 days from now and my arm was a Veterinarian Attack for 10 years and i was a Junior Handler and showed at westminster. I come from a family of dog lovers, trainers and handlers. I wish you were aunt and kristi noem had crossed paths years ago with the puppy that she shot in the gravel pit. Her First Response was to say like you City Slickers dont understand life on the farm. She said we love animals but tough decisions like this happen all the time on a farm. Sadly we had to put down three horses a few weeks ago that had been in our family for 25 years. Want more real, honest, and politically incorrect stories, preorder no going back. This is the key thing about this. I want to play this clip of steve bannon and donald junior. This is a pr document. This is not, shes not trying to win the National Book award for memoir. This is a campaign document. It is included, everything that is included to tell a story to curry favor with the kinds of folks, the voters that she wants. I think she thought they would like the story and i think it is so revealing what steve bannon and donald junior say about it. Take a listen. I have always been an advocate of a woman as a vp because we need a strong woman. I think kristi noem is a little too based shooting the puppy. Not ideal. Who put that in the book . Your ghostwriter must really not like you if they included that one. I just think him saying it is a little too based is perfect because it east is a term of a good thing in their world. It is the opposite of work. Based is like hardcore. Him saying that, that him admitting he thought she thought it would look based to kill your puppy and surprised it backfired. The cruelty is the point has gone too far here. These people, the bloodlust is sadistic that they would like this, that she made the political calculation to put in being a Puppy Executioner as a positive. It is not. When you have lost steve bannon, don junior and judge janine and Kimberly Guilfoyle and the maga, you have lost it. Just when you thought it couldnt go too far, the American People dont come together on many things. But, being a Puppy Executioner is something everyone can agree to disqualifies you from Holding Higher office. That might be a sure thing. I always talk to songwriters about good writing details and i will say gravel pit is really what, that will stick in your head. Thank you very much. Still to come, in a congress with people like Marjorie Taylor greene, Lauren Boebert, could this man, i dont think youve heard of him but i think he could put them to shame. That is next. Welcome to beyond. The mercedesmaybach eqs suv. Sometimes, the lows of Bipolar Depression feel darkest before dawn. With caplyta, theres a chance to let in the lyte™. Caplyta is proven to deliver significant relief across Bipolar Depression. Unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and ii depression. And in clinical trials, Movement Disorders and weight gain were not common. Call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. Antidepressants may increase these risks in young adults. Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. 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It is fair to say a ton of the folks who control the legislative branch are pretty anonymous. Even people who follow news pretty regularly. For most numbers of congress, you dont hear about them unless Something Big happens. For instance, just today, the conservative democrat, henry cuar was indicted. Henry cuellar and his wife took 600,000 from a bank in mexico and an Energy Company in azerbaijan. He denies all the charges against him. Now henry cuellar, hes a longtime thorn in the side of his own party, he has won a bunch of contested primary races. Im betting you havent heard of republican congressman mike collins of georgia. Collins has not achieved the same kind of notoriety is folks like Lauren Boebert or Marjorie Taylor greene but he absolutely should. He is equally extreme. If you have seen his twitter feed, i would say even worse. For instance, today, Collins Shared A Video On Twitter ole miss taking care of business. We will not play it because it is so offensive that it showed whitecollar protesters at the university of mississippi marking a black protester and one of them is making funky sounds at her, just vile stuff that the sitting u. S. Congressman, mike collins, went out of his way to post and call taking care of business. Last week, he shared a video showing a doubt, Handcuffed Protester at Emory University being repeatedly struck with a taser on his skin. Collins writes not sure what you are doing up north but we dont give them the time to camp. Taser set to stun. In another instance, collins responded to an account known to share White Supremacist content going after a jewish reporter from the Washington Post, captioned in case you were wondering, yes, she is. What they mean by that is jewish. Collins response to the tweet, never was a second thought. I could go on and on with this stuff. 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But one of the big challenges with trump as a candidate is he feels no need like others to stake out a position to defend. He moves all over the place, he evades and denies. Just having a debate almost becomes impossible by the nature of how he operates. Timothy writing we have very little idea what trump will do, because trump himself has very little idea. Joining me now are the two people who wrote these two pieces, eric, staff writer for time. Timothy, staff writer for the new republic. Eric, let me start with you, because i enjoyed your piece. I thought it was a good interview, and i felt like both of these things were true in that interview. There was some concrete stuff and a tremendous amount of evasion, and even points where you say crime is down, he says its not true, just like flat denial. Did you feel like you could get a concrete sense from that interview of an actual agenda . Well, i got a sense that donald trump wants to expand president ial power in a second term. You know, he does not really speak about legislative initiatives, he thinks about the things he wants to do with his own executive authority. I asked trump about his plan to embark on a massive deportation operation throughout the United States to remove as many as 1100 , 11 million undocumented records. Hes told me he would rely on the National Guard to holloway these migrants, and that he would use the military inland. He also said he would try to induce local and state Police Departments to participate tying federal funds to their involvement. I think there are issues, fixations that he has ideas about that hes going to use Executive Power to pursue in a second term. Committee . I agree with you that he does not have a clue of what his own agenda is, but it also seems this is one of those places where he has fixations, he has grudges, he wants more power for himself. He wants the justices to prosecute political enemies. And personnel needs a tremendous amount. Who is advising on immigration, right . He may not have wellformed views, but if you give Stephen Miller the immigration portfolio, and he says we are doing it, you have a mass deportation campaign. Yes, there are a few things, where he has said hes going to do specific things. Its broadly speaking as an phobia agenda. He will do a mass roundup of undocumented immigrants, and hes going to slap tariffs on every conceivable foreign imports, although even there he told eric i noticed that he had said 10 , but in the interview he said well maybe it is more than 10 . Going to like it either way. Thats right. He is the something terrific candidates. Remember in 2016 when he said he was going to replace obama care with something terrific . This time out hes pretty much saying everything he does is going to be terrific, but he does not tell you what is going to be, he does not propose any legislation that he wants. He would clearly like to abuse power to the maximum, and its frightening. But he is kind of an improvisational authoritarian. Hes not going to go in there with a strict plan. And i think we should call him on it. Call him on the fact he has no clear idea what he would do as president of the United States. Yeah, i think the synthesis here, if i may, between these sort of visions is that there are areas where there are strong ideas, and other places it is completely woeful. That is where the administrative stuff matters, who will run the epa . Well, someone who is super pro fossil fuels. The coalition will dictate that. But on the tariff front, which i also caught my eye, missy, eric, this is a really striking policy area to me. Its a, explicit, he says it. He b, believes in it. He has liked tariffs for a long time as reporting shows. And it would be incredibly inflationary. The subject of to meet the tremendous media eric first. I definitely think donald trump has you know, cared quite a bit about trade since the dawn of his political emergence, and he sees it through a transactional approach, like real estate transaction. He thinks the United States on the losing end of trade deals, especially since trade deficit like with china, and he wants to try to renegotiate the deal. You know, i specifically asked trump if he would be worried about new inflation. He believed there would be any. He did it before, and he says you know look, inflation was low, the stock market was high, and donald trump really sees this issue to that prison. Expect that is a perfect example good policy is about trade offs, and so when you say will you accept the tradeoff . He says there are none. This is the classic approach. Right. Eric did a great job pressing him, and he did make this ridiculous statement that across the border towns would not be inflationary, and it is the, it is the soft bigotry of low expectations. We dont even notice anymore a republican candidate for president is an absolute ignoramus when it comes to the simplest things like the tariffs inflationary. Yes, i agree. The degree to which a presumptive expectation that you can talk ably about is utterly eviscerated and replaced with this nonsense. Tim and eric, awesome job, great show, thank you both. That is all in for this week. Alex wagner starts right now. That Time Magazine interview was really unbelievable. The crime