Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240703

Starts now. Welcome to this twohour the beat. Michael cohen is Donald Trumps selfdescribed fixer. As defendant he was rolling deep today. Trump not only arriving with Top Republican figures but also one of his own codefendants from a different one where hes charged. Jeffrey clark was in the courtroom. I saw him myself and briefly greeted him. It was in that courtroom that we continued that Group Coverage of the defenses, the witness, the lawyers. That was a few hours ago when i was in front of the new york criminal courthouse. I am, of course, a member of our whole wideranging Team Reporting on this historic trial for you. While the d. A. Has been on offense for weeks, with damning receipts, strong witnesses weve told you about. Todays continued heat on Michael Cohen is certainly slowing the prosecutors momentum in this trial. Trumps lawyers conducting a winding relentless crossexamination that has the d. A. s case wobbling. The worse news for the d. A. Is that the jury has now seen Michael Cohen admit or confirm a bunch of his own mistakes and lies. Thats just a problem. It doesnt mean they cant win the case but it does remind everyone who has been following it about why there was so much discussion about Michael Cohen not being the perfect witness. And the jury being told, to not watch outside coverage, to not talk to outside people. As long as they are doing that, we have no reason to think otherwise, this is pretty new and fresh to them. They see the litany of Issues Dogging Michael Cohen. The best news for the prosecutors is they previewed this entire line of attack. And they dont need a jury to love Michael Cohen. They just need the jury, once it takes in all the evidence, to think that Michael Cohens most recent version of events is the actual true version. And admits these two sides clashing in the home stretch of this case, the world is watching. Michael cohen is set to return to the stand this morning for a second day of crossexamination. Here we go. Another round of donald trump about to come face to face with Michael Cohen. Trumps defense has pushed Michael Cohen. Building to a center endo. Trying to get him to crack. It only got crazier from there. I think they did some damage to Michael Cohen today. That crossexamination really scorching by todd blanch. The question is will it be effective . Trumps lawyer here has attempted through questioning and the topics that he gets to raise, it is their turn, to try to cast Michael Cohen. Not just unreliable in a general sense. Not just someone with a bad memory. But as a vindictive serial liar. They want to get at least one juror to so thoroughly doubt Michael Cohens testimony that basically, they cant in good conscience be convinced Beyond A Reasonable Doubt that trump did it. Heres why that matters legally. Were not all just talking about Michael Cohen because we remember him or he was loud or on tv a lot. Today they did discuss his dealings with everyone from the New York Times to our own katy tur. It is part of what he did for trump for many years. It is quite specifically that they land the idea that this guy is not on the level now. That what he said in this very trial is fundamentally unreliable or that they have doubt about it. So im going to go through these lines of attack with you. If youre sitting here watching, going, oh, it seems like the d. A. Is in some choppy waters. Thats true. Thats what is happening. Doesnt mean they cant win the case or that they have to like it. There are plenty of witnesses, people who once liked and supported him who feel that justice should be done. He should face his accountable day in court. He should be convicted as miss daniels said. So were not here telling you whether to like it or not. Were giving you as we always try to do, the real facts. So one was the possible ulterior motives. The outcome will affect him personally. And he said yes. Asking about how his history years is very personally wrapped up. He had failed to get out of jail early. He asked for that several times. And then as part of this idea that he has perhaps a vendetta that has distorted the truth, the accuracy that he told the jury, today like weve seen in earlier days, the lawyers really bore down on cohens Ups And Downs with donald trump. During his legal problems, how he did want a pardon. Cohen had in the context of his answer that the issue came up because it was dangled to him and he wanted this nightmare to end. Cohens anger at being rebuffed from any white house job whatsoever came up. And will that matters because the question being raised is whether that has passed the point of anger, which hes allowed to feel. He is a human being. Whether he has spun that story or lied about that history, and cohen said on the stand he did ask to be President Trumps personal attorney, but not a different role of general counsel. It went on and on like this today. On and on and on, if you will. Just like it did the other day. And so its possible that this style, this Meandering Road could make jurors bored. Or the doubt that theyre trying to raise. Its also possible on the other hand, i was thinking about this watching cohen go through it hour by hour, that the nicks and cuts can slowly eat away at his credibility to Donald Trumps State Of Mind. Another way to put it, if the d. A. Thought they could clearly prove and win this case without Michael Cohen, they would have brought this case without putting cohen on the stand. There were other people who were involved they didnt put on the stand. Susan mcdougal. Hes on the stand because without the other money guy, weisselberg who is in jail which cant be used against trump in court but certainly makes trump look bad in the real world. Voters and others can file that in. Hes been to jail twice now. Without weisselberg, without the cfo, they needed cohen as the only other trump aide who could speak to trumps State Of Mind. Thats why hes important. Trump lawyers after things got sometimes a little meandering or boring, he got ways to dial it back up. For example, bearing down on cohens story, telling in this very case, in a matter that grew heated. Pushing cohen on this phone call that he made. They have the records. They can see trumps bodyguard in 2016. Cohen insisted he spoke directly to trump. Thats a viable story because donald trump like other top people can get calls to a mainline, to a cell phone, to go a secretary, a security line, and then it is handed over. We do that all the time. You dont always get the person directly. That call mattered because he says it was on that call where he and trump connected through someone elses phone and it was incriminating because cohen personally assured trump the Hush Money Deal was done. Today trumps lawyer pounded on that. That was a lie, he practically yelled. Suggesting cohen maybe only spoke to the bodyguard and was now trying to make it worse and add this other detail which becomes something that people can debate. Now, thats a big moment. It doesnt mean cohen was lying and it doesnt mean the jury buys that. But it is certainly memorable. It allows them to put it front and center. Remember we told you, we raised the question. He was lying then. He admitted some lies. Other lies hes denying. You cant take his word. As for the response, Michael Cohen simply suggested that attack, that impugning of his character was not accurate. I believe i spoke to mr. Trump about the Stormy Daniels matter. Trumps lawyer retorting, were not asking for your belief. This jury does not want to think what you think happened. Yes, im doing may best Court Reporting here, giving you a little spice, a Little Energy on it. Mr. Blanche was generally respectful but he would dial it up at times. He has these little tricks to say, is there any doubt, they are basically lawyer tricks. He would do the one i just said as well. Were not asking for that. Were asking for this. It is tactical. tis kind of way he was trying to get him cornered. Thats one way. So cohen is not having his best week of this trial, not the best week of his life. The testimony comes on the heels of corroboration from many other witnesses of the core of what hes asserting. Like Stormy Daniels, like the documents. And i dont know exactly what the prosecutors will say in their closing but if theyre any good, they will try to close the circle on what they said in their opening. What them is well show you all the facts before you ever get to Michael Cohen. Theyre basically implying, if you think cohen is lying about this key stuff, it couldnt just be him. You would have to have all these other people including Perjury Charges to make up some sort of conspiracy. And then why would donald trump cut the checks . Trumps lawyers took a Kitchen Sink Approach here. At one point today the lawyer even said sorry, were jumping around a little bit. It was more than a little bit. They landed some blows on his credibility. To see whats happening and why the jury might have more questions about cohen at the end of the day. They asked cohen about something he did. Doesnt mean hes always a liar. It does mean he lied. And he did something i can tell you thats very unusual that lawyers are not supposed to do. A violation of bar rules. He was secretly recording his own client. Breaching legal ethics. Trumps attorney said you understand that its not ethical for a lawyer to record a conversation with their own client, correct . Cohen admitted, thats correct. And then did he that with donald trump. To slayer the reasoning, it was to share with it a third party. If you do that as a lawyer, you are breaking the very privilege that you have taken an oath to uphold. The privilege means as youve probably heard, if you tell your lawyer something, they dont just keep it secret while they represent you. They can stop representing you and they take it to the literal grave. They certainly dont record it. He did that to a friendly member of the media, the pro trump media. Talk about breaking it. Hes putting it all the way out there. On that could be part of what im calling the nicks and cuts and whether the jury believes him about the core stuff. Another thing is one of the hardest things for trumps side to explain. We played this tape for you. This was the recording. The ethical part which cuts against cohen. Like it or not, how the tape got created, he seems to sound like not only secretive but has a type of consciousness of guilt wanting to pay the hush money in cash. Trumps own words. Ill play it for you again. Trump made the tape about paying cash. This was for the model story Karen Mcdougal. I spoke to allen about it when it comes time to financing. What financing . Well, well have to pay no, no. Heres what we learned today. If you follow the news, youve heard that time. That tape is bad for trump. Im not sure theres a good way to explain it away. At trial you get to hear both sides. I dont mean this as a dis to the trump lawyers. Sometimes creative lawyering helps add doubt to a complicated story. It is up to the jury, not to me, to you, to anyone else, up to the jury to decide what that means in full context of all the other elements. This was interesting. This is the first time weve heard how theyre going to deal with it. Trumps Defense Lawyers saying that trump didnt mean actual dollar bills. He was distinguishing between using his own money and financing. Cohen disputes that. Although he says yes, separately, that they would in the world of real estate discuss all cash transactions. The question is if thats a totally different context. If you think about it, this is why everyone deserves their day in court if theyre accused of a crime. Because im not saying the Trump Argument is a good argument. I would weight it as unlikely to be true. Based on everything we know. They are raising what i told you theyre going to do. This reasonable doubt. Does that tape alone or that tape with other evidence give you 100 , beyond a reasonable style doubt confidence, not technically 100, but high confidence that he was being secretive. Or do some jurors say huh . If people talk with all cash real estate transactions. It doesnt mean going to the bank and taking money out but not using a loan. Others know in that moment, trump was paying very close attention. That hes been closing his eyes at other times. So again we go in that courtroom. We take turns. We rely on the Sketch Artist and all the other moments. Its the kind of spin, the kind of word play. We dont know. Maybe trump was interested because he liked that defense. Whether or not he meant cash, lets hide something so bad it maybe a Campaign Crime or cash, i dont need to take out a loan. A lot of people dont have 130,000 lying around. Michael cohen said he has to get a loan. Trump would have had the money around. Youre sitting there all of this, okay, ari. They dont have to have a conclusion or a grand narrative. All they have to do is make this jury believe Michael Cohen a little less than they believed him yesterday or the day before. So far they are scoring some punches and doing just that. Best we can tell. Cohen returns to the stand on monday. We have our Special Panel Kick off our twohour coverage. Cove. 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Which is pretty unboring if you think about it. ella fashion moves fast. jen so we partner with verizon to take our operations to the next level. marquis with a custom private 5g network. ella we get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. jen thats enterprise intelligence. vo its your vision, its your verizon. Providing a 135,000 check that President Trump personally signed from his personal bank account on august 1st of 2017. When he was president of the United States, pursuant to the coverup which was the basis of my guilty plea to reimburse me. Michael cohen said it once under oath in congressional testimony and was back at it these last few days. Were back with our Special Panel for this twohour coverage. Welcome all. What do you think . I agree with you. There were a number of punches and i think they landed. I thought in particular, the part that stood out to me was when todd blanche asked a series of questions which said essentially, Michael Cohen likes to play the blame game. You blame your accountant. You blame your bank. You blame the federal prosecutors, you blame the federal judge and you blame donald trump. It was a series of questions. He said yes to each one. I thought that was an effective point. Especially when he brought out some of the things that he has said. Attacking a judge as being corrupt. Attacking his prosecution as being the most corrupt in 100 years. Calling the prosecutors and the judge animals. It was very vivid language and it showed a lack of, looking to blame anybody else, not really accepting responsibility for what he did. When you couple that with changing his story about his press conduct, that was not a good look for him. A lot of us have been down there which gives you extra texture to it. Do you see a jury that is going, oh, yeah, this is normal . Or do you see a jury that is very hard to read, might be finding this is even worse than what the prosecution previewed . Im in the Overflow Room. I cant see the jury. I mean, the Overflow Room which has members of the public and members of the press. People were coming out after that break. A number of people were like, i cant believe he called the judge that. The judge, a lot of people were focused on that testimony. Then the testimony that you talked about earlier about the phone call. Maya, same questions. I was watching the jury today. We cant read too much. The level of detail and repetition of these issues plaguing cohen do seem to be more than just, oh, thats what it is like. Oh, thats the world of trump. Yeah. It would be fascinating to get to see the jury. From a lot of things ive heard today, they were very engaged and paying attention. I think what this will come back down to. And i do agree they landed punches. They should have landed some punches. We would be really having a conversation if there werent a conversation about having landed some. And it is certainly true that making cohen outperformed what a lot of people thought he would do. He has been very calm. When you add to that the jury will be reminded by the constitution which is what david said, wasnt in the interests of his Business Interests to be paying off women and concerns about things that corroborate a lot of critical points. When you think about that hope hicks reiterated there was real concern on the side of the campaign. That donald trump was concerned. When you consider that theres been reinforcement about wasnt really melania. If they believe Michael Cohen. Again, a lot of the points they landed didnt really go to some of that testimony or his demeanor. So what can be easy to forget when you have one witness on the stand and a lot of hits landed, is that what are they going to really remember about what theyve heard over the past weeks . And how well the prosecution will land its closing, reminding them of the facts. Case, and how is the judge going to tell the jury about what the instruction are. All of this will be a part of what this jury decides. Im going back to christy. Well get to you. What the jury will remember is not the details but i dont think you can trust this guy. What the defense is doing fails, i think theyll remember, i dont know about this guy, but on the core thing that other people also said trump did and trump paid for and the checks show, i think it happened. So thats where im at watching it. I view it and say, okay. Given all the corroboration weve heard so far, the fact that the story makes sense and any defense theory, you would have to believe not only that Michael Cohen went rogue but Allen Weisselberg went rogue. I believe what Michael Cohen is saying. That said, again, Somebody Else looking at this could say, look, i dont think hes been honest about everything on the stand. As of now. If i dont really believe him on this, am i going to take his word to convict the former president . And i think, one question is, could you actually just put Michael Cohen aside . Could you make the case without him . I think you need him. I think you need those conversations with Michael Cohen. Thats what makes it a bigger problem. I never put someone on the stand that i didnt think they were 100 credible. I knew what they were going to say on the stand and i felt like that was something that i could sell to a jury. Thats an important point. Were accustomed to this world of trump and this is a circus of his own making. In most trials you dont have witnesses, even known mobsters giving long out of court rants. Going on tiktok. Molly, there are college kids who have more Discipline Staying off tiktok to do their homework than Michael Cohen did even during the trial. One thing i would say about Michael Cohen. Im not a lawyer. But i do think that he reflects a lot of Donald Trumps aspects, right . This is trumps fixer. He behaves a lot like trump. So you do see again, a lot of this introduces the seediness from season one of the trump show. Remember, characters that none of us even remembered. And we do this for a living. Stormy daniels and some of them have been right here. Right here. But Stormy Daniels, and Karen Mcdougal and the salacious chats. I do think theres so much in here. And you also have to remember the political component. You had the Speaker Of The House yesterday there. And you have trump having people who are republican, elected republicans saying the things he is not allowed to say because of the gag order. The other thing i thought the lawyer tried to show the witness is hes dodgy. It doesnt mean he is lying to the court but he did that. He would make these recordings and people would say are you recording me . He would say no which was lying to them. Not perjury. Not illegal. But the idea that lying comes people he claim to be working for or with. Hes just unreliable. Then he has his own dissembling about his own case. You brought this up earlier this week. Either gotten in trouble for the republican statements. Heres what he was telling us about the fraud and the alleged taxi case which then became later convicted. Take a look. First and foremost, there was no fraud in the medallions. Second of all, this whole thing about lying and my credibility. Ive even said this to you and to others on this station. What did i lie about . And if you think that will stop alvin bragg or anybody from using me on credibility, its not. Yeah. So that goes back to, again, i thought todd blanche could have done this more effectively. All the ways in which he has changed his story. He said he did it. Then he said he didnt. On the stand the on The Civil Fraud Trial and now the story is i dont dispute the underlying facts but they shouldnt have prosecuted me. Why not . It was five years for 4 million of not reporting income. I prosecuted tax cases. I assume vise tax cases at sdny. It is well within the normal range of cases problem prosecuted. You have to hope the jury thinks it is bad enough. To your point, will the jury remember that, thats not just my story changed once. Youre saying he has had at least three different stories about just the tax fraud. Yeah. And hes also claiming the prosecutors threatened to prosecute his wife. Which again, sdny prosecutors have denied. But he kind of put that out there and they didnt really touch on it other than i think to say, this is him just being a liar. The one thing i think is interesting about that recorded call with donald trump, it also goes to the point this is a guy who goes rogue. Everything weve heard is, you just followed donald trump. Here youre recording your own client and he doesnt know about it. Really interesting. I want to thank our super panel here as we barrel forward. A special twohour edition. Our coverage. Coming up. Well get to matt gates and maga. First, this hour of strategy from an insider weve been relying on. Well get back into that on this third day of cross and the manhattan veterans as well as how bragg and his team might circle and punch back on some of the issues today. K on some of the issues today this homestyle Chicken Salad wrap from subway this is how you do it. Savory chicken, crisp veggies all wrapped up these wraps are amazing. People can hear my thoughts . Thats a problem. Stay fresh out there with all new wraps from subway. Before my doctor and i chose breztri for my copd, i had bad days. [cough] flareups that could permanently damage my lungs. With breztri, things changed for me. Breztri gave me better breathing. Starting within 5 minutes, i noticed my Lung Function improved. It helped improve my symptoms, and breztri was even proven to reduce flareups, including those that could send me to the hospital. 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One purchased equals one donated. 100 million donations and counting. Visit bombas. Com and get 20 off your first order. I dont want you to move. 100 million donations and counting. Im gonna miss you so much. You realize well have Internet Waiting for us at the new place, right . Oh, we know. We just like making a scene. Transferring your services has never been easier. Get connected on the day of your move with the xfinity app. Can i sleep over at your new place . Can katie sleep over tonight . Sure, honey this generation is so dramatic move with xfinity. In response to them saying you went rogue. Thats the defense that theyll try to put forward. It will fail and fail miserably. There were notification thats came to the Trump Organization about her. She was going to go public with the information. Michael cohen explaining himself on this very program. Today he explained himself to the jury and the crossexamination that weve been covering. Were joined by a former prosecutor in the manhattans d. A. Office. He knows his way around these exact issues. Thank you. Are you so biased for your former colleagues that you have to say the case is always going perfectly . They have a really difficult witness. Hold on. Im not biased. Im a Defense Attorney now. Youre not so biased that you have to say its going perfectly. Its going well but not perfectly. Today was a great example and complain the best example of it. The defense had a day off. They got to really look over the testimony that Michael Cohen gave on tuesday. And what they did with it was, they landed some blows during it. And at the end of this trial, both sides will go up and make an argument about Michael Cohen. The prosecution will say i have to slow you down. It takes one to know one. I want to zero in on, you would say today, you would give what kind of grade to what the defense was able to do . Ive walked through fact they dont have a whole cogent story. They dont have an alternative explanation. Donald trump could still be convicted on the evidence. They seemed to raise not one, not two, four, five, six issues with cohen . I thought it was a b . They threw a lot out there. Michael cohen, they have all sorts of theories but theyre trying to see what sticks and they havent come up with an alternate theory. Theyre doing a good job to show him to be shifty. Theyre doing a good job of showing him to be a liar. And today they did a good job of showing him to be lying to this very jury. And i think thats the first thing. You think they nailed him for lying to the jury. It there are a few areas where they did. That phone call that happened on october 24, 2016, to Keith Schiller, it was a good way to show that Michael Cohen was lying to this jury. Obviously, theyre going to argue it and the prosecution would say that was not a lie. This was a 90second phone call that Michael Cohen testified on direct was the moment that he spoke with donald trump about Stormy Daniels. And that call was preceded by some Text Messages between Michael Cohen and Keith Schiller about a young girl who had been harassing him. Right before the call, Keith Schiller texted back, call me. Then there is a 90second phone call. I thought the defense did a good job of showing they cross examined Michael Cohen and saying you didnt really talk about Stormy Daniels during that phone call. That was about this girl who had been harassing you. Its not dispositive but that was a good moment to show that Michael Cohen was showing on the stand. You mean its not a slamdunk that ends the question but it is bad. Im curious if you could elaborate that for us. Were all watching this but not everyone is in the courtroom. Had it been five minutes or ten, or a followup text that said, glad i could connect you to the boss. What youre saying as the defense which isnt in charge. Theyre responding, right . Managed to find something where they said, up hey, lets call and have a talk about x. This unrelated harassment issue. Then you had a very short call about x and thats the end of it. Were to believe you got on and off with the president as well, the candidate . Jurors are called upon to use their common sense. The defense would say youre texting with somebody about something. They say call me. A 90second phone call. Its pretty obvious what you were talking about on the phone. And Michael Cohen was saying, that was a call about Stormy Daniels. I dont fault cohen for that as much as the d. A. s office form. Theres no reason to have elicited in the direct testimony that Michael Cohen was having a call with donald trump on that specific date at that specific time. Lets dive in a little deeper. Now were going from a normal interview. Do you think a juror, if convince that had cohen lied about this to strengthen the case against trump, to say not only did he have the intent, but heres the day those ends meet. Could a jury think cohen lied about that and still in good Conscience Vote to convict . They could. The core part of this case is so corroborated and there are so many other things, and it doesnt really matter what day and what phone call, what time it was that he talked about Stormy Daniels. There is so much other specific information that he testified to that is corroborated. But this specific time, this call on october 24, 2016, that he had that phone call. There is no reason. Were running over on time. If we were in court i would say to you at the end of this exam, so it is your testimony that it is more likely than not that Michael Cohen lied about that to strengthen the case against trump . I do. Well, we dont rest because we have more tv to do. It is always good to have you here. We especially appreciate your insights. Our thanks to duncan. We have another view on the defense next. Stay with us. N the defense next stay with us we love being outside, but the sun makes our deck and patio too hot to enjoy. Now thanks to our new sunsetter retractable awning, we can select full sun or instant shade in just 60 seconds. Its 20 degrees cooler under the sunsetter and we get instant protection from harmful uv rays and sun glare. For pricing starting at less than 1,000, transform your Outdoor Living space into a shaded retreat your family will love when you call, well rush you a special 200 Discount Certificate with your free awning idea kit youll get your sunsetter for as little as 799. But, this is a limited time offer for over 20 years, sunsetter has been the bestselling retractable awning in america call now for this free awning idea kit packed with great Awning Solutions that will let you enjoy your deck or patio much more often. 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Make your get away now and cache in at cache creek casino resort. I am standing as truth to power. This is kind of been, if you think about it over the five years, like a David And Goliath sort of scenario. Its very biblical if you think about it. At the end of the day, yes, i am the smaller guy. I am the david. But somehow or another, goliath is on his back. Goliath may not be on his back but he is the first former president to ever be put on criminal trial. And Michael Cohen is a big part of that. Weve been covering some of the issues that have come up in the crossexamination today. There is no way to understand this trial or where its headed without seeing all of this and the nicks and cuts the defense has been able to achieve on cohen as a witness. Were joined now as a skilled veteran Defense Attorney who also represented then outgoing President Trump in the second impeachment case and the fraud case. Welcome. Thanks for having me. Good to be back. Lets jump into the details. Ive told viewers, what i mentioned on tuesday, they did land some punches today. There will be a further response tom. There will be Closing Arguments. But take a look at this argument through todd blanche. That cohen was arguably so upset about being rebuffed from the white house job that that added to his motive for potential revenge. It was also on an episode of his podcast. I truly [ bleep ] hope this man ends up in prison. It wont bring back the year i lost or the damage done to my family but revenge is a dish best served cold. And youd Better Believe i want this man to go down and rot inside for what he did to me and my family. As Defense Counsel, what are they trying to achieve there . What do you say to the counter argument that if cohens story is true, he did pay a high price for trying to be loyal to trump and it would be okay if hes angry as long as he tells the truthful. This guy is a whiner. Its always Somebody Elses fault. I think mr. Blanche brought that out. Today it is the judges fault, the prosecutors fault, the bankers fault, the Loan Officers fault, its trumps fault. You have to remember, ari, the lies are not totally related and they dont begin and end with trump world. He lied about the medallions. He lied to the irs, to his wife about the reify. He lied to the judge. These have nothing to do with trump and it is always someone elses fault. He made a remark. In podcast. Revenge is a dish best served cold. Theres another quote. Sinatra for many years had over his bar a quote saying, living well is the best revenge. Maybe he should have taken that quote. Because this guy is absolutely damaged goods. Blanche tagged him with that phone call. That phone call is probably what is going to prevent a guilty verdict here. And there are two interesting things about that. Let me slow you down. We were just discussing the phone call with the d. A. s office. Well get to that. I did want to mention, you said that cohen has been caught lying a lot and weve been reporting on that. Of course, if that meant that someone wasnt fit to have their day in court, you could have never represented donald trump when you did because hes been caught in more lies than any public person alive according to the Washington Post and other accounts. Well, thats some type of political statement. Im not here for politics. Thats not a political statement. Were talking about lies in court. Hes on trial. And you know hes a known and busted liar. Since youre weighing in on cohen. I dont know that. And im not here i would say if President Biden called me and i had the privilege of representing him, i would represent him. I look at all my clients like jo blow. The difference that youre looking at, this man took an oath and swore to tell the truth to this jury. Did i represent with a team of lawyers, President Trump at his second impeachment where he did not appear, nor did he testify. I did represent the trump pay Roll Corporation with lawyers where i know. The cocounsel. He was, President Trump was not a defendant. So the analogy fails because its not like President Trump took the stand in the cases that i represented him in and you could argue, did he tell the truth or not. This man took an oath to tell the truth to this jury. Im not sure that the analogy fails but you did get your time to address it. And you mentioned the tape. I want to show some evidence to the audience and get your views on it. The secret recordings. Did you tell people you were recording them . Cohen admits no. Blanche says who else did you record surreptitiously . And he gave a not exhaustive list but he mentioned the former cnn chief, zucker, trump, other reporters. What is going on here and what did you want to say about the tape issue . On the time issue, there are two lawyers i understand on that jury. I am offended as a lawyer that a lawyer would surreptitiously record his client. Donald trump, joe biden, or joe blow. I dont know this joe blow guy you keep bringing up. The average american citizen. Couldnt help it. I know you do. The tape i think will be an issue with the two lawyers, and the issue that blanche brought out today about this phone call that you very accurately reported on the earlier segments. Thats a huge, huge day for the defense. And theres an interesting parallel here. At least i see it. That the ultimate proof that the d. A. Needs to show is that another crime was the goal of whatever happened or didnt happen. And cohen that, oh, no, no. It was all about the election. Nothing about his wife and family. Theyre not usually exclusive. It could be both, one or the other. Now we find out in the crucial call, hes calling to deliver the news. The story matter is taken care of. He spends time talking about a 14yearold kid. Seventh grade . Eighth grade . The guy never heard of call block . What kind of adult male fights with a 14yearold kid. Thats like your doctor calls you and youre waiting for days about boms results. And he says i have the biopsy test. Let me tell you first about this 14yearold seventh grader. Heres whats interesting. Were bringing out the facts and reserving judgment. I will note as they say for the record, you, a Defense Counsel with experience representing trump, and the d. A. , mr. Levin in the previous segment. You are both agreeing on one thing. Which is the effective point for the defense that raises doubt. We dont have the raises doubt Michael Cohen lied in this case. If the jurors can get past it, fine. If they cant, if they have doubt about that, if he lied about the Stormy Daniels phone call that he asserted under oath occurred, thats a big one. I hope you come back, sir. Thank you, ari. Just quickly on that lying in this case im over time, 20 seconds. Costello went before a Congressional Committee yesterday and said under Oath Everything cohen said about him was a lie in this case. Devastating. You tell mr. Costello to come on by the beat. Well be right back. Be right ba. What about africa . Safari . Hot air balloon ride . Swim with elephants . Wait, can we afford a safari . Great question. Like everything, it takes a little planning. Or, put the money towards a downpayment. On a ranch. In montana. With horses lets take a look at those scenarios. J. P. Morgan Wealth Management has advisors in Chase Branches and tools, like wealth plan to keep you on track. When youre planning for it all. The answer is j. P. Morgan Wealth Management. Power e trades awardwinning trading app makes trading easier. With its customizable options chain, easytouse tools, and Paper Trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. E trade from Morgan Stanley vo its shrimp your way. From wherever you are. Choose three flavors for just 20. Like new street corn shrimp. And our famous garlic shrimp scampi. 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Tiffany anybody and everybody that contributes anything to this place, no matter if its a big business or just the grandmother that donates once a month, they are changing peoples lives. And thats a big deal. [music playing] were following a crucial day and momentous week. In the next hour, were going to break this down from a different perspective including all the fun in pop culture. Yesterday during trumps trial, his lawyer grilled Michael Cohen on how he called trump a cheeto dusted cartoon villain. Pretty interesting. But thats not all he called him. Michael cohen also called him a shaved lorax. A rejected mascot for velveeta. Thick nolte. A baby with a toupee, and finally, an oompha loser. Fact check, those are jokes. Were also going to hear from historian Doug Brinkley on the parade of rightwing polls who are now suddenly embracing what can only be called an attack on the rule of law itself. These are politically motivated trials and theyre a disgrace. 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You sing about price lock on those commercials. the price lock, the price lock. so, if you could change the price, change the name its not a lock, i know a lock. So how can we undo the damage . We could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. Their connection is unreal. And we could all unexperience this whole session. Okay, thats uncalled for. Hello, im ari melber in for joy reid. Welcome to this Special Coverage of Donald Trumps criminal trial in new york versus trump in a week that really could be make or break as key witness Michael Cohen took the stand, unloaded on trump, definitely hurt him, but then found himself on defense with trumps fate now hanging in the balance. The star witness takes the stand against donald j. Trump. Michael cohen now the star wince in the new york versus trump trial. Cohen on the stand. The expresident coming facetoface with the man who used to do his dirty work who now has turned into the key witness. Telling the court, quote, everything required mr. Trumps signoff. Will cohen keep his cool when trumps lawyers begin what could be an intense crossexamination . I think the punches are building cumulatively. I think tuesday, there were bruises, and today theres blood. Mr. Cohen is a bad human being. If i was a juror watching that, i would think, this guy is making this up as hes going along. Is he making it up as he goes along . We heard different people, legal experts, longtime journalists and just other observers who have been close to this. I was inside the courtroom as you saw there several times covering this trial, including that key cross on thursday. And cohen did give the d. A. S what they wanted, including corroboration of what he says were realtime proof of trump being in on this criminal scheme. But as thursday continued, the defense continued to chip away at his credibility. Monday, the prosecution had Cohen Narrating the entire hush money scheme. It looked bad for defendant trump. Questions were about the catch and kill. Playboy model and the adult actress. Cohen testified trump knew there would be a, quote, Significant Impact on his president ial campaign if these stories came out. Prosecutors pressed cohen about the daniels payment and cohen said trump was angry to learn the whole thing had resurfaced. I thought you took care of this. An angry trump said, according to cohens testimony. I thought this was under control. Just take care of it. And cohen recounted what he did was at the direction of and the benefit for trump. This was a damning picture. And that trump was not only in on everything, but sharing in real time his own motives. In other words, if you believe cohen, you now have the motive piece. You dont even need cohen, the tabloid, and the money piece because you have other witnesses and the checks. So that looked bad. It was bad. For defendant trump. We reported on it. And then came the cross exam. Whats happens in this trial, this is what everybody has been gearing up for, because over several days you had these Defense Attorneys going at cohens credibility. Not just saying he changed his story. That was previewed and the jury had been told that already. But that he continues to dissemble and lie, not just about the Core Evidence in this case but about other unrelated stuff. And that his personal vendetta is not only clouding his judgment but that he personally cares so much, as he confirmed, it raised questions about whether that has colored or even distorted his ability to tell the truth on the stand. Trumps defense aggressively pushing and questioning cohen on all kinds of things, and lets be clear. I mentioned this in my reporting thus far, some of it didnt completely add up. Some of it didnt create a logical counterstory, but cumeiatively over the days it did appear to poke holes in not only cohens credibility but Something Else that jurors may care about, theyre human beings trying to decide who to believe, whether he over time went straight and told the truth or continued to be a kind of angry, unreliable person who was constantly publicly insulting the man he used to look up to. Donald cares for no one or anything other than himself. I know what mr. Trump is. Hes a racist, he is a con man. And he is a cheat. And i am going to jail in part because of my decision to help mr. Trump hide that payment from the American People before they voted a few days later. Do you remember that moment . Thats now about 4 1 2, 5 years ago. We got all the way up to this trial, the only trial trump is facing after effectively delaying the others with an assist from his own appointeed on the conservative new Supreme Court. Some people look at what you saw there and they see a whistleblower, someone who made mistakes but came clean. Other people, though, and this is what the defense is pushing, might see someone who had one story to benefit him one way and another story when he got caught, and maybe even another story as time went on. So they pushed him on the kind of resistance figure hes become with a podcast that repeatedly, meticulously documents his time with trump and his turning against trump. And tshirts that show his onetime boss and mentor now in a prison cell. And how much hes motivated potentially by revenge. He wrote a book called revenge. Trumps lawyer also tried to at some times bait him. You can see the Sketch Artist there showing a lawyer who looks like clearly the most upset person in the room or the most heated in this moment saying were not asking for your beliefs. The jury doesnt want to hear what you think happened. He also called him a liar at one point and cohen responded and rebutted that. The courthouse in Lower Manhattan also became something of a maga gathering place. What you see on your screen is not normal. I want you to understand that. I try to cover this stuff very fairly with the evidence. The people assembled to attack the rule of law, to undermine the actual jury thats sitting, which is legally authorized to make this decision, those were the rightwing republicans that gathered in person to do that. Including the highest ranking republican in the federal government, the Speaker Of The House, mike johnson, and other lawmakers. You see them there making this political pilgrimage, and then he was outflanked to his right by matt gaetz, a figure who helped topple the last speaker and has leverage over the current speaker. Theyre there, they lyonize trump in the same way cohen used to, and theyre saying things that trump is actually been busted for saying in violation of the gag order, so hes sort of handed that off, which some experts say could be a second viles, a new violation of the gag order or the 11th or 12th, as they came out and did trumps dirty work. The judge inside, his daughter is making millions of dollars running against donald trump raising money for Donald Trumps political opponents. The judges own daughter is making millions of dollars doing Online Fundraising for democrats. The judges daughter is a political operative who raises money for democrats. What you just heard is wrong. And its not just coming from a beleaguered defendant desperately trying to muddy the waters or from his own random paid political hacks, but from people who are leaders in government. If you have been watching our Special Coverage, you may have noticed we at msnbc are trying very hard to cover this very historic trial fairly. Youll see people from both sides, independent legal experts, people say things about the trial where some people might get mad, but dont shoot the messenger. Theres no two sides to what you just heard there. A, it might be a Gag Order Violation if, as one reporter said, donald trump was publicly personally writing those lines. Because its a violation of the gag order to instruct others on behalf of the defendant to attack family members, children of the judge, as it should be. But second and more widely, i want to be clear. Those officials have every right to attend the trial, to observe it. Have every right to weigh in on it to some degree. But they have systematically several of them i played for you and several others who have come to town, they havent just done that. They have undermined the rule of law in advance before this jury even hears the case. They have contributed to an environment where if they dont get the result they want, they will say, oh, we have already been attacking this court and if they do, its entirely possible the defendant could be acquitted or have a hung jury and thus not be convicted, then theyll move right along without any apparent care for the system of government that theyre in. Remember, theyre not just random commentators. Theyre members of the government which has three branches and this is one of them. Its the Judicial Branch that is supposed to be respected precisely because it is the less partisan branch. It doesnt just do press releases. We havent heard the d. A. Respond to any of those politicians, let alone the judge. Yet these people who know how it works are undermining it. When i say its not normal, its not normal and its not done. We have had a tradition olpresident s in both parties, recently with the one on trial, but a tradition of saying, well wait to hear what the jury decides and we respect the ruling, the decision of the jury. Just as you must respect Supreme Court rulings. Because otherwise, the whole system crumbles and you dont have a rule of law democracy anymore. While this may look like a trump antitrump thing, its a larger problem. I promise if folks show up at democrat Bob Menendezs trial and do the same thing, ill tell you about it. I say that as a matter of fact. We cant do false equivalents when theres no equivalence to the underlying situation. We have to be careful at a time where people have already attacked the last peaceful transfer of power and that election which had no real question about the winner, the current president won by three states, the Supreme Court didnt takeny appeals. There were none Strong Enough to hear, let alone overturn the results, but we had an insurrection and now we have that same crowd challenging the next election because trump might lose. Theyre worried he might lose and theyre challenging that and now challenging the judicial process of our fellow citizens to judge him as they should judge any other defendant because thats what happens when you live in a rule of law and order. So while this trial is about the verdict, its also about so much more. We cant have false equivalence about that. So our Special Coverage continues right now. We put this together to make sense of this big week and we have a top reporter from the New York Times and a veteran of the manhattan d. A. s office itself right after this. Do you want to close out . Should i . Normally id hold. But. Taking the gains is smart here, right . Feel more confident with Stock Ratings from j. P. Morgan analysts in the chase app. When youve got a decision to make. The answer is j. P. Morgan Wealth Management. Liberty mutual customized my Car Insurance and i saved hundreds. Thats great. I know, ive bee telling everyone. Baby liberty. Oh baby liberty. How many people did you tell . Only pay for what you need. Jingle liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Baby liberty. A slow network is no network for business. Jingle liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Thats why more choose Comcast Business. And now, were introducing ultimate speed for business our fastest plans yet. Were up to 12 times faster than verizon, at t, and tmobile. And existing customers could even get up to triple the speeds. At no additional cost. Its ultimate speed for ultimate business. Dont miss out on our fastest speed plans yet switch to Comcast Business and get started for 49. 99 a month. Plus, ask how to get up to an 800 prepaid card. Call today im giving the Committee Today A Copy of the 130,000 Wire Transfer from me to ms. Cliffords attorney that was demanded by ms. Clifford to maintain her silence about her affair with mr. Trump. Long ago bombshells have become criminal evidence. That was Michael Cohen explaining all this to congress. He gave lawmakers the receipts, which became a big part of this weeks case. As exhibit 5a to my testimony shows, i am providing a copy of a 35,000 check that President Trump personally signed from his personal bank account on august 1st of 2017. When he was president of the United States. Pursuant to the coverup which was the basis of my guilty plea to reimburse me, the word used by mr. Trumps tv lawyer, for the illegal hush money i paid on his behalf. This 35,000 check was one of 11 Check Installments that was paid throughout the year while he was president. Were joined now by the New York Times magazine legal writer, alley baslon, and yareomy. Welcome to both of you. Here we are. Im curious, emily, what you think having followed all the way back to when the story first broke and all the other trials that have been delayed. Theyre slated to go after the election. This is the one we have, and the week started with Michael Cohen giving a version of that set of events to the jury and ended with him, i would say, on defense over whether hes always truthful. Yeah, that clip really shows how this is the saga of Michael Cohen and Donald Trumps relationship, which was this relationship that cohen wanted to hold so close and so dear. It blew up on him. You know, this hush money scheme, his own role in it, in lying about it, sent him to prison. And now hes trying to bring donald trump into that scheme with him. Of course, with the prosecutors behind him. And so, this story that hes been telling that he got in big trouble initially for lying about, then says that he told the truth about to congress, now theres supposed to be real consequences for donald trump who cohen cast as the principal. Then the question is does he have enough credibility for the jury to believe that version of events so he can pull trump down with him, essentially. Yeah, thats well put. Jeremy, you have been inside that office, you tried these kind of cases can you also do defense work. I want to play a little bit of cohens history. Theres so much talk about bias in the world, and the word, the idea that youre only doing something for your political views or Something Else. Theres also information bias. We have all who follow this absorbed what emily just referred to as this relationship saga. We dont have any reason to believe from voir dire this jury has followed this closely, and theyre now instructed not to. So i was watching in the courtroom this week as they kind of got more and more detail about this very strange odyssey and to them, its new. Its newer information. Here some of where cohen started. I know mr. Trump. I have stood by him shoulder to shoulder for the past decade. I think hes a wonderful man. Obviously, im very loyal and very dedicated to mr. Trump. Ill do anything to protect mr. Trump, the family, now Vice President elect pence. As well as the campaign. I think hes going to be a great president. Mr. Trump has a significant number of people, i would like to keep myself in that little circle of extremely loyal people. Not exactly a resistance whistleblower, so the prosecutors argued that version of michael is why he did lie then and now is telling the truth. And the Defense Counsel argues how are you going to trust this guy, his story keeps changing . Sammy the bull wasnt a good guy on day one, but he was loyal. We know donald trump loves loyalty, and he sort of supports, not sort of, in fact provides for and calls in loyalty. At some point, when you turn your back on someone, if you believe the narrative, that person turns around and tells the story. But youre not getting the kingpin. Youre not getting the big boss, youre not getting the major bad guy unless you have dirty hands. You want a choir boy, then it goes nowhere. You need that person in that room as part of that crime or that bad act to get the main player youre seeking. In this case, its not Sammy The Bull but its Michael Cohen. Sammy the bull helped get gotti. Teflon don wasnt teflon. Did you see Sammy The Bull have the same recent Credibility Problems . Because we heard from experts, including veterans of the office just like you, that they did get some punches landed because there were real questions about whether cohen has not just changed his story since he got in trouble, but been less than truthful recently. There wasnt you have to look at this not sort of as the heymaker. Its body blows, body blows. I dont know if they landed enough. I think the prosecution did a good job humanizing him. Hes not been the same cut from the same cloth as donald trump but different who would go on these tirades. Hes been respectful and calm. At times more so on day one than day two. There was a little base i dont recall, it sounds correct. Today he was much more yes and no. If he didnt recall, he didnt recall. Going back to what i said before, at the end of the day, youre getting the bad guy because thats who has the information. Whether or not he wanted to become chief or staff and told his daughter, whether or not he asked for a pardon, hes a regular guy who wants to be vindicated and doesnt want to go to prison. None of this is a home run. Emily, theres so many lawyers in trumps orbit who are in trouble, cohen went to jail for him. Other aides went to jail pursuant to mueller. Today, i should say in the thursday, i was in court, and saw jeff clark, who is a codefendant in a wholly different case. I dont know why you want to bring a codefendant from your other criminal problems into this courtroom, but there we are. Michael avenatti clashed with cohen, and then was convicted of other crimes in this same orbit and all the attention and television drew scrutiny to him. I was able to obtain his first jailhouse interview. I said that and repeat now that he was convicted for crimes related to lying. He has his own set of issues. But he was the person on the other side of this everyone remembers. One thing he said from the Prison Interview is he thinks there is evidence to convict trump. He expects trump to be convicted, but he previewed what he said would be problems with cohen, not withstanding the fact they have clashed in the past. Take a listen. Every case needs to have one or two primary witnesses who tell the story. From my perspective, i surmise that the d. A. Is going to use potentially Michael Cohen or Stormy Daniels for that purpose. And i think that has the potential to be a disaster. Michael cohen is you know, i have never been a fan of michael for various reasons. You know, hes a serial liar. Hes shown himself to be incapable of telling the truth. Emily. Well, Michael Avenatti obviously has a problem with Michael Cohen. You can see it there. You know, one thing that i have been thinking about is the way in which cohens previous testimony in the civil trial involving the Trump Organization gave him a chance to rehearse. You know, were seeing someone here who is much calmer in terms of demeanor, is holding it together on the stand. And well see if thats enough to convince the jury. I mean, he has weaknesses. He has done lying in the past. Whether hes now kind of atoning for that lying or making up for it by telling the part of the story thats true, i mean, thats what this tests. And obviously, if you have a record of being convicted of perjury, like automatically not the best witness. But the prosecution really tried to lay the groundwork for the idea that this isnt a great guy. Theyre relying on him for a key fact, for this idea that trump knew about these checks. The fraud part of the case against him. And so, you know, were going to have to see whether this is enough. And then also, What Happens Next . Does the defense put on witnesses . Who are they . How does this case go from here and how do we look back on cohens testimony when we have the whole shape of the trial. Going backwards forward. What does the defense case look like from here . I think after they hit their points with Michael Cohen, lets get him off the stand and at some point, the jury loses interest when you keep on saying the same thing and you lied about this, you lied about that, because the prosecution is saying he may have lied at the time but it doesnt make them a liar. I promised to let you weigh in on something we led with, this spectacle of politicians and the government undermying the rule of law, which is not normal. Not even as a Defense Attorney, just as someone who believes in the criminal Justice System which is one of the foundations of our country, to say its wholly inappropriate, to say its wholly offensive and reprehensible is not doing it justice. Its a complete understatement. These folks who are getting up there, im going to use a term that may offend people. This has nothing to do with Donald Trumps innocence in the courtroom. But when you talk about wanting to be loyal to get something, thats why theyre there. This is a bunch of, here we go, bootliquors who are really obsessed with donald trump who want nothing but to be his lap dog. If donald trump wins, theyll get their fiefdom. Thats not what justice is about. Why the governor of one of the dakotas is here in new york talking about a criminal trial in the state of new york, in new york city, is beyond me. And undermining the rule of law. 100 . You want to talk about your neighbor to the south or north shooting their dog, great, do that. But dont come to new york and undermine justice. If theres a political issue here, i get that. I mentioned you being a prosecutor because it brings extra heft. We have seen in the federal system, this is a local case, there are precedents where they will throw out an entire Military Trial because someone said anything about it. This is supposed to be the tradition is, youre going to follow what the jury says, period. Thats after the fact. Let alone prejudging it. By their theory, then, if we have a trial in alabama, automatically, a republican prosecutor, a democratic candidate, its bad. Ill say this. Most people here are maybe watching from new york, but allen, he was a comptroller, he was not held to a higher standard in the courtroom, but he was outside the courtroom because we hold elected officials to a higher standard, to more scrutiny. You should be treated equally in the courtroom, 100 . When donald trump finds himself in the position, true or not, because he has not been proven guilty, its himself to blame to start this off. Again, i dont mean to sound old fashioned, school house rock, civics, but something i touched on with you and our discussion with emily, we all have to understand, these are members of the government. It has to be a different standard. Were talking about whether you support the government youre a part of, and we sahib the insurrection some of the soft minimization or support for that. If you have the calls coming from inside,and members of the government wont uphold the Judicial Branch, then were in a big problem regardless of the outcome of the case. Thanks to both of you. Good to see you. After that maga parade, well get into that with a historian, douglas brinkley. Next, a special preview of the punch back, if cohen was on defense, what comes next week . We got you covered. Im visiting President Trump in the oval office for the first time. He says to me something to the effect of, dont worry, michael. Your january and february reimbursement checks are coming. But they can be remade in a whole new way. Thanks to you. Were getting bottles back. And weve developed a way to make new ones from 100 recycled plastic. New bottles made using no new plastic. Youll be seeing more of these bottles in more places. And when we get more of them back. We can use less new plastic. See how our bottles are made to be remade. bell ringing someone needs to customize and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual Inaudible Sounds Elevator Doors Opening wait, theres an elevator . Only pay for what you need. Liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. 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You may recall when trump was indicted people said its here, and then it turned out some of the indictments didnt turn into trials. He had four indictments but only one trial slated before the election. Then you heard this trial was started, people say its here. I can tell you, following this closely, its here for real in the next week or two. By which i mean they are going to continue this trial, but we know theyre going to finish witnesses this coming week. And its going to go to the jury this week or the week after. So woe are actually really, totally here. And all of trumps Delay Tactics filed. If he thought violated the gag order might slow it down, the judge might have outsmarted him on that. Michael cohen back on the stand monday. The defense will finish its crossexamination. We can tell you based on how many days it has been, that should end by that morning or early afternoon. The judge told both sides be ready to give your Closing Arguments the following day, tuesday. Thats the end, then trumps fate officially transfers to those 12 citizens, a jury of his peers, to decide whether or not hes guilty of a felony. Were joined by a former federal prosecutor, renato mariotti, and catherine christian. It really is here now. Yes. What is key next week . Well, the judge promised june 3rd it will be over before that unless some catastrophe happened. The key is will the defense put on any defense case . I doubt it. I could be proven wrong. If they dont, then we could have summations on sunday im sorry, on tuesday. Lets talk about what that means. Number one, nothing wrong with that, nothing to infer from that. Nothing to infer. They had no burden. And often, it is a wise strategy to not put on a full defense. Often there is no defense. Right, which means you dont do it. Can you remind us why that is . Because the prosecution have the burden. This will never happen, but Defense Attorneys dont even have to do crossexaminations. They dont have to do opening statements. Its the prosecution has the burden. The defendant has an absolute right to testify. He also has an absolute right not to testify. And the prosecution cannot in any way in their summation or through their questionings infer that why didnt defendant say this, why didnt the defense bring any witnesses . Because thats like an immediate i want a mistrial. So its not it shouldnt be held against donald trump if no witnesses, because thats what most defendants do. This apparently, Michael Cohen is the prosecutions last witness. What youll hear the prosecution say is the people rest. And as for whether or not, you mentioned the right, the right to testify, most defendants dont. Theres many reasons why trump shouldnt. I was questioning one of his former lawyers today, discussing the fact hes a known habitual liar among other reasons. The likelihood he takes the stand, i think its more likely that beyonce forgets how to sing and dance than that donald trump testifies, but i will say for the sake of evidence, the judge asked, referred to the transcript, the court. The court says do you have any indication whether trump, his client, will testify . Blanche says no. The judge pushes a little, no determination yet. Blanche says no. Can we read anything other than theyre maintaining suspense. If the defendant is going to testify, thats two days. Were pushing it past what i promised the jury. Thats just the defense, i dont want to say coy, they dont have to tell him. Why dont you want to say coy . I dont want to accuse him. I dont know the strategy. I think hes being a little coy. He has a client who likes to always keep an eye on whats going on outside the courtroom. Hes running for president , and this idea that trump might testify the client is saying i dont know yet. Then youre like i have just seen this movie too many times. Renato, this is not Fast And Furious the sequel or the fourth one. This is the eighth one and donald trump doesnt testify but he tries to create the environment of bravado, of tough, of strong, and hes not afraid and all that. With that put to rest, your view of whats important in this pivotal week coming absolutely. What the defense should do is find witnesses who can get in their story but arent named donald trump. The challenge is finding such a witness who is willing to come forward. The d. A. Has made clear, if you commit perjury, youre going to be prosecuted. Thats why we didnt hear from Allen Weisselberg. Really what they need to do is come up with a short set of questions for Michael Cohen after the break, something thats very memorable for the jury, something that sticks in their minds and sit down and stop talking on and on. Renato renato, you have done a mock trial with us before. Old school msnbc beatniks may remember, you and Alan Dershowitz went to a new york courtroom and did a trial. Do you have examples of questions you would like to see cohen asked next week to deal with what we discussed, on the one hand, real doubts raised. On the other hand, a lot of receipts back him up. They need to focus on the pieces of his testimony that dont have receipts. That dont have corroboration. And they havent done that. Thats really the biggest failure thus far. What would you ask . Well, i would ask, for example, mr. Cohen, there is no email whatsoever from donald trump to you regarding the falsification of business records, is there . Theres no text message, theres no you dont have a recording of donald trump talking to you about falsifying business records, do you . Walk through all of the ways in which you can isolate pieces of his testimony that arent corroborated. Thats what the defense should be focused on but theyre all over the place. Thats the biggest failure of the defense thus far. Interesting. Thats a different view, catherine, because and then sit down. Well, catherine, i think its fair to say that the defense has been meandering, and at times boring, and this is a story. You never want to be too boring. But we had multiple experts on, again, if youre not just wishing trump convicted as many people are for many valid reasons, i dont detract from why people think this man should face justice, but talking about what happened in the past week and bhauts going to happen next week, theres a lot of folks saying they have raised questions. I guess my question for you is, what do you think the prosecutors can do in the office you have been in to tighten this up next week with cohen . Well, its going to be interesting because cohen, i would always wonder whats going to come out of his mouth. I think hes a liar, they cant tighten that up. They might want to tighten up, he keeps trying to revisit that plea of guilty to the text which has nothing to do with donald trump. Too bad, yeah. I pled guilty, i shouldnt have been prosecuted. It was the judges fault who is corrupt who is now dead. Somehow try to clean it up and have him say i pled guilty because i was guilty. Maybe he cant say that. I would hate to put usually as a prosecutor, thats what the defendant says and i laugh. If its your own witness, thats a problem. In a World Without objections you might say we keep hearing this is so important to you. And you have such strong feelings. And you have been building up to this. You have been podcasting about it constantly. Doesnt that mean that every fiber of your being wants to do this right and honestly and not blow it . If its so important to you, you dont want to blow it, right . Without an objection, you try to reverse it that way or mention that in closing to the jury, right . Youre talking about the prosecution . Yeah, tightening it up. You had a bad couple days. Theres an idea hes so emotional he cant be trusted. Theres another idea this is so important to him and he already went to prison once. Why would he perjure himself now . I wouldnt say that about him because hes so such a liar, i would not wrap my arms around him. I would as a prosecutor go through every piece of corroboration and circumstantial evidence that proves guilty and then say, and then of course, you can see all of the things that mr. Cohen said is not the nicest person and who is a convicted perjurer, but hes credible here. Would you were over on time. Would you in closing say we showed you cohen to show you everything, but we dont even need him to prove this case . I dont know if i would go that far because if you have jurors who would say, oh, because we dont believe him, but we think you do need him, so i wouldnt go that far. I would say, hes here because he tells the story, but hes corroborated. Renato, you almost get the impression this stuff is harder than it looks. We tip our hat to all the seasoned members of the bar, renato and catherine, thank you. Coming up, club maga. How theyre getting roasted and what history teaches us. Doug brinkley, our special guest for our Special Coverage, trump on trial. The balloons and the raptor cake. Now, how about something to put a smile on your face . Aspen dental provides complete, Affordable Care with dentists and labs in one place plus free exams and xrays for new patients without insurance. And 20 off treatment plans for everyone. Quality care at a price worth celebrating. Its one more way aspen dental is in your corner. Innovation in Health Care Means nothing if no one can afford it. At evernorth, were helping to unlock barriers. Using our 35 plus years of pharmacy benefits Management Experience to save businesses billions while boosting medication adherence. Helping Plan Sponsors and their members be at their best. Thats wonder made possible. Evernorth health services. Top republicans have taken time out of their official duties to come to new york and show support for defendant trump. At times, to undermine the rule of law itself. We have seen the spectacle inside the courtroom with the Speaker Of The House, the veepstakes, matt gaetz and others attacking this trial. I think this trial is absolutely ridiculous. I think its a sham prosecution. I wanted to be here myself to call out what is a travesty of justice. This is a madeup crime. This is a scam, a sham, a show. This is a crooked sham trial. This trial is a joke. This thing is a farce. This is a sham. This is not the United States of america. This is some third rate banana republic. Were joined by president ial historian Doug Brinkley. I suppose the opening question is the trial a sham or is that effort by members of the government to undermine the governments rule of law a sham . What a clown show of republicans coming in, defending donald trump on the hush money case. Dozens of republicans are saying the same kind of words because trump wants them, you have a gag order on me, well, you can have my surrogates. Theyre going to defend me. Look at matt gaetz, nee ofascist proud boy rhetoric there. Look at tuberville tumbling in from alabama. The collective idiocy of the republicans there to defend donald trump, its embarrassing for them. And the Republican Party has many good members, smart people in it, but anybody who thought to show up and kiss trumps ring and grab a media moment i think did dented their reputation. We have a lot of what they used to call definance deviousy down, as a historian, can you think of other active members of government, not fringe figures, impugning and undermining trial before the jury even ruled . No. Its startling to me. Were dealing with the first time either a sitting or expresident is facing criminal charges. We were on day 18 today. Michael cohen had three days. Why not just get out of the way . But the Maga Movement is an attempt to undermine the constitution. Undermine our institutions. Make people think that justice doesnt work in the United States. And we no longer know its about a couple fringe figures. Its the dominant trend in the gop. But its sad. And its frightening because this shows us what a tinder box really our democracy is standing on when that many members of one of our parties would stoop to such a ridiculous one of our p would stoop to such a ridiculous level. And trump awaits his fate. As i repeated, he is presumed innocent, but other people are not. There have been convictions for sedition for storming the capital, the brutal violence against police, the insurrection. As a candidate trump has mused openly repeatedly about pardoning these people. Not saying they didnt do it, which can be a lawful use of the pardon, but saying he is going to pardon them anyway. I dont know if the word would be vigilantism or they ought to release the j6 hostages. I will look very favorably about full pardons and i mean full pardons with an apology. January 6 defendants are having their lives destroyed and being treated worse than terrorists and murderers and if i become president , someday if i decide to do it, i will be looking at them very, very seriously for pardons. Regardless of the outcome of this trial, does that context matter . Should americans be concerned that this failed coup leader has been openly talking about amnesty for convicted seditionists . Absolutely. Who would think when we watched what happened january 6 and listened to people, Mitch Mcconnell and lindsey graham, denounced trump, that a cycle like this would occur where people are willing to back somebody talking about giving blanket pardons to people who ran an insurrection on the u. S. Capital, beat police, through our country helterskelter off of its fear and yet trump is advertising it and people are saying, great. He is an autocrat, but taking the use of pardon as a weapon and basically if you elect trump he will arrest you if you feel like it or let you out of jail if he feels like it. That is why he is such a danger and why we all have to be very awake right now, to see a neo fascism rising across the land. Its been there for a while, but the fact this many people would go to new york on the Stormy Daniels, 130,000 event and flood in and back his action and try to disrupt our legal system in this fashion with reckless rhetoric, it is staggering. 30 seconds. Do you think the founders underestimated how much the pardon power could be abused for encouraging crimes against the nation . Absolutely. It is not just donald trump. I think president s have been abusing pardon power. We saw problems with bill clinton. Weve seen every president in some way probably pardon the wrong people. It is a sense of abuse of power. Donald trump saying reelect me to president because i will abuse power and anybody on the right, anybody in a fascist State Of Mind are my friends, so i will let you out of jail. That is well put. The founders give a lot of thought to the abuse of power, given breaking with colonial england and conservatives traditionally worry about excessive power, federal government power india to have someone clearly taking control of the Republican Party. Not conservative in that sense, as you said, running on abuse of power. Douglas brinkley, thank you, sir. Up next we go behind the scenes. We told you how many of our reporters are going into the trial. There are a lot of people going in as witnesses and observers and we will show you that next. Im taking control like millions of others. We have seen the nation and much of the world riveted by this ongoing trial of former President Trump. In new york, many big, large crowds of people wait in the line to get in. This is separate from the maga supporters or other people who stand outside to make a point. We are talking about one of the most elusive tickets in the city of manhattan. Those long lines starting early in the morning are to try to get into the courtroom and scalping can become a thing. Some have sold their seat for hundreds and last night the comics weighed in. It seems like the only thing we are accomplishing is making sure trump is well rested before the election. Cohen laid out tons of evidence. It is very impressive. I wonder if trumps lawyers might win a case. Trump ordered him to pay daniels 130,000, telling him to just do it. In response, nike has changed their slogan to sneakers. Michael cohen was questioned about his use of tiktok and other people are also using the platform watching the trial. Michael cohen, Donald Trumps former attorney testified under oath. Today was the straight up funniest day in court. This is where todd blanche is getting to cohen a little bit. The testimony has been nothing short of a complete disaster for donald trump. We are living through this together and