but it's tough for them to get too far away from that perfect defense. the second thing is that there is so much they realize they do not know. there is so much about all of the communications that the president was having with cabinet officials w rudy, what was going on in ukraine with rudy and his associates that it's difficult to get too far on a limb on the facts. >> the main point that the democrats make is if the president was so concerned that the bidens may have done something criminally wrong, they should be investigated, why go to the ukrainians to investigate? why not go to the fbi or justice department and ask u.s. law enforcement to investigate the bidens. >> sure. that highlights the difference between when something is done for legitimate purposes. if there really was some allegation based on fact or information that indicated there should be some kind of appropriate investigation, then the proper channel would be to go to the justice department, have them raise it with