is not in the best interest of donald trump. he will definitely come out wounded. i think -- i know we kind of laugh and jest about it, but i think vivek ramaswamy has a chance to creep up near third or touch the third place candidate and be really close. i think that although most of his voters are younger, he's done a decent job with our media in iowa. so we'll see how that plays out. >> as i recall four years ago, then vice president joe biden -- did he come in fifth in iowa? >> fourth. >> somebody remembers. >> i remember being in a caulk r -- caucus rooms, with a group of -- i guess it was kamala harris supporters, a group of bernie sanders supporters. there were these sweet little hopeful biden supporters that i said hope springs eternal. they were right. >> their hope was in the right