Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth With Gerald Horne 20161008

Any of us or fish or mammals or its in some worms which come from a very Different Branch of the animal kingdom. Thats also interesting to those because those warms cause severe tropical diseases and if you kill all, you are able to kill the diseases, a different story. But yeah, a lot of biology that we dont understand. Why is it so good at jumping from host to host . Is it just because it spreads vertically throughout the population like i talked about with mosquitoes, is it also because its really good at jumping horizonly from one host to another. Maybe it gets infected by something. These are all questions theres actually a huge a thriving area of research. Still has a lot of unanswered questions. So weve so weve gone from cow poo to fecal transplants and back again. Thank you all for coming who are out of time. R i hope you all all come. [applause] [inaudible] cspan created by americas Cable Television companies and brought to you as a Public Service by your cable on satellite provider. And now author and historian gerald horne sits down with booktv to discuss his work hes author of several books on race and history including his most recent, paul the artist as revolutionary. Professor gerald horne in your book the counterrevolution of 1776, you write as the 21st century perceives, one point is evident. Heroic creation myth is in need of revisiting. What does what mean . Means that i think that historians by and large have not done a very good job of talking about founding of United States of america striking is that in history departments, from the atlantic to pacific, you have specialst who is critique french revolution, chinese revolution, cuban revolution but those who krit are teak 1776 or far and few between. Despite the fact that after founder of the United States of america you have land from native americans clearically which meant that 1776 is not a step forward for indigenous population but you haved United States a note in that book have taken over the control of the charade trade in africans to cuba by 1840s as i said in the deepest south with slave trade have taken good with national taken control of the slave trad to brazil. So it seems to me that minimally one can say that 1776 was not a greatly way for african or great leap forward for the indigenous population. It was a great leap forward for europeans that is to be sure. But europeans if we know do not comprise the entire tea of humanity. I think what it said in motion is actually were seeing in 2016 that it is to say with 1776 you had the progressive exappropriation of land and then that was out often times to yiewrns fresh off the boat which helps solidify a cross Class Coalition between poor europeans and more fluent yiewrns at the expense of the indigenous population and africans that stalk that land as bonded labor and in 2016 once again you see a kind of Cross Coalition on republican side a monk, european various class background, and for those who say or think make America Great again means white again, they have a point to be made. I think part of the problem is that since we havent had a critique of 1776 to the extent it deserves one it is difficult to understand. If you go to a doctor and you have an illness one of the first thing doctor will do is take a medical history and hopefully had a adequate medical history to allow doctor to make a diagnosis and prognostication regard to your future well being. Well, we havent had a adequate history it seems to me of the founding that make it is very difficult to understand the purpose. And in your book how the alabama, you write the u. S. Had been founded in the 18th centuy on principle of white supremacist. So it goes back to what i said that is to say that in some ways, if you look at 1776 and this is what i tell my students, when i teach undergraduates introduction africanamerican studies that it is fair to say that 1776 and the u. S. Constitution did represent a step forward in terms of religious liberty. To that point, of course, religious war has been racking european in particular. Protestant london versus catholic power, france, and spain. Took a lot over the americas portuguese predominant catholic but what happened in that i argue in order to widen the base of support, for the republican project in north america, socalled democratic project in north america there was a step forward in terms of religious liberty because this allowed the settler, here to widen their basis of port against the crown in london. And so set hers that led by George Washington could not have prevailed but from the First Amendment guaranteeing to latest liberty. With with that, of course, we all know that catholicism burning of the continue then and it prevailed century ago with with rods of second of the ku kx klan and steps forward this materials of the fight against antisemitism even 2016 that particular beef continues to an ugly head. But generally speaking it was a step forward with religious liberty. But the the flip side of that coin that the socalled republican project it mean that religion took a step backward it also meant that monarchy took a step backward but u of ancestry and heritage and lineage was in london it was race. And in fact you can make had the argument and i have made the argument that that project didnt begin to retreat until the 20th century with the rise of the class project. The rise of thriving trade union and social country movements et cetera that would begin assistance under the lash of racism and white stream city which forced agonized retreat from access in 1949 may 17 with the brown versus education decision and then 1964 with the act with Voting Rights act. But as that International Assistance and pressure began to wither in the latter part of the 20 9 century in the first decade or so of the 21st century you see a reassertion of the uglier aspect that is represent ared for example with this incredible state of Police Shootings in san diego, tulsa, shaar is lot, chicago, milwaukee. The list of sites to mention, and part of the dilemma were black community in particular is that as a result of brown versus board of educations and that retreat from the more egregious access of White Supremacy a tradeoff was made to say more internationalist leader of the black community who were willing to make the source of Global Alliance paul of the first place were marginalized isolated. Demonized et cetera, now that reare peteedly wherever theres a microphone in my face, and in 2016 despite the fact that you have these major crises, ukraine, north korea, syria. Mentioned a few, there are few black intellectual and leaders that have anything credible or meaningful to say despite the fact that those crisis could lead to something worse. Up to and including planetary extinction perhaps. So this is where we stand in 2016. Dr. Horne 2. 5 Million People resided in u. S. In 1776. What was the role of africanamericans of slaves during the revolution . If any well, we were told in our classrooms by some would have it that he was the first fern to lay down his life for liberty quote unquote. Although, of course, defined as black another country might have identified as africanamerican girch his ancestry. But what were not told, of course, generally speaking is about the africans who fought against founder and interestingly i was watching second second is version of roots called first version camed out based on the book in the 1970s that took the nation by storm. So much in the second version which just came out this year, i believe. And they doll a credible effort in terms of trying to ill state that last point that i just made that is to say that sense it was a faster track abolition of savely is june 1972 that black population had reason to believe that their interest would be better served the settlers were defeated thats a very difficult point for people in the United States to grapple with. I might also say that there is another tv mini series that you can find easily i wont mention sources. Book of negro a b. E. T. Black entertainment television. Canadian in South African production. To think theyre the best job yet in terms of film and cinema in terms of presenting an accurate portrayal of the black role 1776 war. In any case, enslave africans were bonded laborers. As a i told the story, if youre trying to understand 1776, youre trying to understand 16 thats the glorious revolution in england where the wings of the monarch are clipped by the rising merchant class to that point, were all African Company under sum of monarch was major force in terms of the african slave trade. But with with clipping of the wing of the monothere was a deregulation and to numerous demention able to enter this commerce failing to african, and handcuffing with a praise. Striking them across atlantic to work in the tobacco field and the chesapeake in particular. And of course in the caribbean u up to the middle of 18th century thought more valuable to north american mainland. Of course the story should be told in terms1776 in conjunction can caribbean because africans jots numbered yuens sometimes at a rate ofafrs 101 and krib i caribbean should make forgets grad to rise of slave jeopardizing a lie. Bu slave owners and on the mainland where ratio is a much more favorable to slavery but thatre save because you have revoke actually before that in 1712 you have a revoke in manhattan, 1739 in south carolina, basically spearheaded by engoland not only many of them could speak portuguese but Roman Catholic trying to get to spanish florida, florida at that time controlled by spain. And there was a direct collaboration between spain and the enslaved africans in south carolina. To overthrow the settler class in south carolina. And so what happens finally and 1776 to 1763 is seven years war where london speaks to eliminate the spanish threat to their settlement in florida and tose french threat in quebec to suggest in manhattan in 1712. That is a very successful fort the seven years war, of course we all know today as we speak canada quebec in particular has a predominantly french speaking but any event london prevails. They want to tax settler because the war was to their benefit and this is the traditional narrative kicks in because i think accuracy there. The is the hers did not want to pay these taxes which is a various scene in washington, d. C. To the very day. And that leads to the revolt against british rule and collaboration with french in particular against london which then brings us back to the constitution and the religiousba liberty the First Amendment, et cetera. What was role of who was lord dunmother. I was at a conference the Graduate Center in new york about a year ago. Re and leading historian [laughter]ro started off making what he thought was a cynical comment about the parallel between lord dunmore virginia in 1775 andd Abraham Lincoln hing thought it was cynical i thought he was about about to Say Something i agree with. But to say lord dunmore was upset shall we say with the fact that settlers led by George Washington and Thomas Jefferson wanted to overthrow a british rule. [laughter] in virginia and in north america generally. So he tried to cut a deal with the africans. As a matter of fact, this was represented in the second version of roots that i was just making reference to. So the filmmakers credit. And in return liberty for the enslaved, they they they would h london forces of course this diw not win du nurksmore to put it mildly he became a notorious unpopular. But this leading his when he was throwing what hing thought was a par leal between lord dummore and Abraham Lincoln he was making a point that, of course, that emancipation proclamation in 1863 in some measure as i say negro commands with a crown was a measure in terms of trying to free enslaved population that the United States does not have jurisdiction over to say in the confederate United States of america that was a turning point in terms of the war to allow for more black soldiers represented in film lauri starring Denzel Washington, and then allows the u. S. Or the union forces to blue to prevail over gray Confederate States of america. It didnt work in 1775 with lord dummore for various reasons including the fact that theres criticism of lord that he didnt go far enough that he should have been trying to offer a freedom to the enslave loyalist that is to say those that did not defect from union jack, from london. But in any case lord duore is an important figure in United States of america. Gerald horne if you were to write a general history book for school kids today, what would be the first line in that book . Im not sure what the first line would be but im giving l talk in a few days that the association of the study of aron American Life and history founded by leading black historian over a century is ago, and this that talk im taking off from an important seminar that was held in washington tk in anyway of 2016 andup when first initiated to opening of the africanamerican miewmre museum and for reasons. In that conference in washington one leading historian. L number asked we need a new framework for the United States of america. One historian said is from slave is rei from slavery a popular frame work with and ely from plantation to ghetto. Another historian said what we need is a new framework for u. S. History. In richmond i will say yes from settler colonialism to imperialism that will allow us to incorporate more effectively the present day diversity of the black American Population. And houston, for example, where i teach. The black American Population has been a rich tremendously byc waves of migrants and immigrants from nigeria in houston basketball score goes on to perform for Houston Rockets and toronto raptors. O in new york city for example, or at least century a tidal wave o. Migrant from jamaica, barr barbs and miami a significant number of percentage has roots in haiti. In particular and for various reasons the traditional narrative are not able to account for that kind of diversity and thats why i think we need this new interpretiveve framework to account for qualitity on the ground. You mentioned earlier paul from your new book, paul robeson you write you cannot fully appropriate how jim crow system came to an end without understanding of life. He pioneered the struggle against jim crow throughout the 30s and 40s that is true. [laughter] despite fact that i wrote it. That is to say that paul black american born in new jersey in 1898 passings away in philadelphia in 1976 leading scholar as an undergraduate of rutger and new bruns we can and stars on gridiron and baseball catcher as far as athletics leaves there and goes to Columbia University and graduates that was on fast track to becoming a lawyer. But diverted although i should say that he also is an early reformer and professional. But hiss career as a lawyer is diverted and he stumbles into performing and becomes a leading actor. A kind of precursor of Denzel Washington and will smith if you like not only on screen but stage and physical low is signature role. A good deal his stardom is created in london where he lives from article 1920s until the late 1930s to the United States of america. Theres a whole die depression we could engage in now with regards to a black. How many black americans over the decade and centuries have been treated much better abroad than in the place of their birth which leetdz to this to this to lives over but a turning point when he comes to visitfast fascist germany and facetoface with rising tide of fascism. He also goes on to moscow where he encountered another black lawyer William Patterson who i write a biography about about that came thes few years ago who graduated from school of law in San Francisco and tented undergraduate school of california berkeley where i attended law school, and William Patterson had become an early member of the u. S. Communist party. Had gone to moscow toll be trained as a professional revolutionary and actually spoke some russian. He convinces robeson that he should devote more of his time and energy to cause of the e people during context of the scots case the subject of thepe book i wrote paul versus alabama, and ill mention that, of course, shortly details of that case. But in any case paul isi convinced that it he should spend more time in the United States of america facilitating that is onseventy world war ii in european in 1939. He has reason to believe he and his family might be trapped in london you know that london was bombed repeatedly by therepe fascist world war ii and people sleeping in subways, et cetera. So returns to the United States helps to convince black americans that they should throw in welcome with the United States and antifascist cause, and thats not necessarily a slam dunk proposition. Is not n because writing a book that will be published in nyu press called facing rising sun. Africanamerican japan, and rise of the solidarity that talks about tokyo sentiment in black america, in fact, in this book i talk about how in november 1942 in east san luis, illinois, right across the Mississippi River from my hometown of san luis you have black americans in military uniform drilling and in anticipation of a japanese envaition of north america thats the kind of sentsment that paul had had to overcome. Which he successfully does convincing black americans once again they should mac ultimate sacrifice a blood sacrifice toes help to rescue in United States. But no good deed goes unpunished and so after a world war ii, depends defeated as a result of the atomic bombing in 1945. Red scare starts and paul who was a socialist thought to be a communist about is persecuted, demonized income falls from six figures to four figures and passport is taken and cannot travel abroad and make a living but dishing out blows despite blows that hes absorbing 1950 to 1951 robeson and patterson had a pets tigs against black people referenced here an article in the Washington Post just a few days ago where United Nations body said that because of the racial terrorism afflicted among black americans black americans deserve reparation for maltreatment and mistreatment theyve absorbed over the yearsn this genocide petition recharged genocide is translate into numerous languages. It is all over the world. But this does not necessarily win in washington. Paul is hauled are peteedly before congressional dmeets patterson, in fact, is jailed. Paul is not jailed but his income disease plummet. Finally in the movement leads to the return of pauls passport he immediately decamps to london. And stars once again in a fellow. But by 1965 not only is his Health Deteriorating but his wife passed away so he returns to United States and becomes a prude and working in philadelphia until he passes away in january 1976 as i mention in the book hes saluted by the rising are civil rights movement, led to scott king, Martin Luther king and andrew young and the shot grow. Movement in the deep south theyre all very more worthy but in the photograph of that book there are those who would suggest woud that former leader of moscow discredits idea of socialism for all time, in fact, the robeson projects. If thats the case discredit the United States for all time . He discredit to capitalism for all time . Why the double standard until we unravel these knots i think well be wondering in the welderrens. You thought illegal to be a communist in the United States . Effectively after 1949 when another comrade of patterson and den davis junior a black man born in atlanta his father was a leading member of the Republican Party, and one of the most affluent in the United States, and den davis junior went to Harvard Law School to join communist party in early 1930s, and it was elected in new york city city council. Newy 19 41 i believe like 1943 reelected in 1945 before ousted perhaps illegally in 1949 and then put on trial and then was jailed federal prison in indiana. In some ways that effectively illegalized the communist partyy and even if thats not a technically accurate assertion, essential i think fair to say that prosecution demonizing socialtism in the United States has left a continue shad dover this country. Sh and thats why im very appreciative of the campaign of senator Bernie Sanders of vermont who went a long way towards helping to detoxify the concept of social and clarifying concept of socialism in the process of attracting many millennials at to say u. S. Spoke under the age of 35 to his banner. But in any case theres still an uphill climb it seems to me with regard to that process that Bernie Sanders did so much to assist. Gerald horne how do you identify yourself politically . I identify myself my late friend manny called himself he was the biographer of malcolm x winning pulitzer prize. He called himself and if i was part of this cohort radical democrat and i accept that termo i accept the term socialist as well. I accept the term antifascist. I september term blackerm liberation militant. I accept the the term peace activist and feminist. I accept the term humanitarian. I mean, i think i have multiparking lot identities that im embrace. What about had communist . J some of my best friends are communists but as i said book and founder of the Screen Writers Guild [laughter] when asked if he was a communist he said were not allowed to say. Two of my friends are communist one with in new york city, who served a long time as leader of the u. S. Communist party the brother, great pianist. So i identify with that movement certainly. Your producers ask me before this Program People have found inspiring. One of the people i listed was becky, and beck abouty was a leader of the south African Communist Party party that works hand and glove and nelson as you accept what late angelo dutch steven says and nelson himself cooperated through Central Committee of the south African Communist Party and for the interview, and i read a few days ago by andrew gainny who was on block and five at robyn island with them serving or might have been the reverse who confirmed what steven pablo pics kas sew shawn, the great irish writer. So i dont run in horror from the idea of even being called throughout your 31 books there seems to be this con fliewns of communist and africanamericans, and their cause. Thats true. As much late ive been writing about slave is rei what is strike about that in some ways it is difficult to write about slavery than to write about communist as i do. Which is very interesting. I sent this because about slavery has a tear an ita a difficult question still for people to grapple with and to reconcile the soaring narrative uplifting narrative in the United States that gruesome, dirty story of what happens to africans. So its easier to try to glide fast it and certainly ive written a number of books aboutt a communist including, in fact, [laughter] aing a book about hawaii fighting in paradise labor unions i cant remember making a modern hawaii Something Like that where i talk about Frank Marshall davis and my writing about Frank Marshall davis has launched right wing blog too numerous to mention because mark days of who was very closely associated shall we say with communist party of hawaii which was parole the most successful communist party under the u. S. Flag, he was a black american. Born in kansas, came to prominence in chicago before moving to honolulu or e it isor 7th, 1948 the day he was that was infamy and there about he comes to mentor a young man who grows up to be president of the United States, of course, thats where right wing blog was because that simple fact has led some so tught that the president of the United States in canada,o to speak, tutored to move into the white house to wreak haik had on United States of americae but as i say in the book if you look at honolulu, if you look at hawaii where lefts influence was the strongest under the u. S. Flag youll find a state that was in the vanguard in terms of women right to choose under the u. S. Flag in terms of a labor Union Protection for example. This was doing no small measure to the efforts of the International Long shore and ware with house union head quartered in San Francisco under harry bridges accused of being a communist United States tried to deport him numerous times. Well born in melbourne australia. He, of course, migrates to San Francisco in the 1930s where he leads the streak of 1934 and then begins to unionize island, of honolulu and helps to convert so it is really redoubt into what has become progressive force under the u. S. Flag. I mean, thats the kind of story that i write about and talk about when i write about communist. And proud source and i would really like to write some more about hawaii a very Pleasant Place to visit. And people tweet and facebook, email, youve got a project that will bring me back to hawaii, please communicate to me. Sooner rather than later. A and good afternoon and welcome tobook t on span 2 our monthly indepth program where we invite one author on to talk about his or her body of work and this month its professor gerald horne. He teaches at university ofss houston and heres a partial list of his currently 31 books. S fire this talk came out in 1997, powell b. Alabama boy and american justice came out in 19197. Race women, woman, the lives shirleyed grand boys came out in 2,000. Class struggle nld came out in 2001. F race war White Supremacy and japanese attack on the British Empire came out in 2003. Black and brown africanamericans in revolution 2005 ddeb. X counterrevolution of 1776 which weve discuss the ised briefly came out in 2014. Race to revolution the u. S. And cuba during slavery and jim crow came out this year. And last year, coldorigin of te Dominican Republic finally most recent book is on paul robeson artist revolutionary. This is your chance to talk with professor horne. Were going to put the phone numbers up here in a second and also show you ways that you can contact us via social media. 202 air code 748200, 748201 for those of you in mountain and pacific time zone. You can also email professor horne at booktv at cspan. Org or you can saned tweet at booktv is our twitter handle and finally, facebook. Com booktv. Ace book is our Facebook Page youll see it right there at the top of the page you can make a comment under his picture there. Professor horne march 1931, with what happened . This is the scots burrow case. A case that i write about in the alabama book and also talking about in William Patterson university of black revolutionary, as i tell theta story its the turning point in the history of the struggle against jim jim u. S. These weree black youth arrested for allegedly sexually molesting two euro american wemg on fast track in alabama to being executed thr fate and destiny of so many black americans before and sense accused falsely of crimes. But what happens is that of ce William Patterson interconvenience and the form of International Labor defense a communist front certainly initiated intrpszed by communist Party Assisted by moscow, and is around kaits of scots burrow nine which they were called but its also marked a turning point because what happens is that International Pressure is police policed on United States to retreat one of the more egregious horrible aspects of jim crow and their demonstration at u. S. Embassy and consulate all over the world in my book on cuba i talk about the demonstration that take place in havana where actually cubans are de killed in favor of the scots burrow nine. This case leads to importance Supreme Court precedent with regard to the right the trial by jury having black americans serve on juries. These u. S. Supreme Court President s are still being utilized to this very day. So scots burrow case is a prelude talking about brown versus board of education and boycott, et cetera. Ducation although the difference between these two historic epics and 1930s and 1950s is that by the 150s people like paul and William Patterson on defensive, and the movement which was then benefiting from the fact that United States wases seeking to accuse moscow of human rights violations, that found is difficult to do so as long asdi the stain of jim crow was permanently sited on the discuss of the United States of america. This create some dynamic and jim koh retreats the problem being that the leadership at that imtoo was not as internationally connected or sophisticate asat robeson and patterson and therefore not able to taketh advantage of the favorable object i objective conditions within obtained by scots is burrow case is highly important case that has been written about numerous times by a number of historian been the subject of cinema at least tv movies as i recall. And certainly deserves all of the attention that is received. Was it widely publicized outside of northern alabama at the time . Oh, absolutely. It was a national case. And, in fact, it was a global case. Theres a book from press publish a few years ago about the International Aspects of the scots burrow case. It was very embarrassing to the United States of america because of course when you talk about scots burrow case you open up the door to a larger discussion of socalled separate but equal socalled jim crow. Not only separate skoals, but separate bibles to be sworn on this in the courtroom. Some of the laws making it illegal for black and white workers to look outs over the same window instead of working in the same factory, for example. This sort of International Scrutiny causes the more sober realistically minded u. S. Leaders to come to the conclusion that jim crow should be at least reduced if not eroded. The problem there and this is where some of not only our intellectual, but our leaders have a deficit is that if you look at sports for example im looking to write a book on baseball if anybody hask any ideas in 1946 and 1947 black american athlete with brooklyn dodgers or the explosion of dominican players coming on to the diamond in 2016, you could t have a one armed white house fielder look pete gray play for the st. Louis browns because of jim crow. So you allow these exceedingly competent and talented black american and latinos to come to the diamond, theres not much of a market for a onearmed white outfielder so even though you want it make the argument this is what leaders do, about baseball and it aloud Major League Baseball to flourish which is true. See teams start in San Francisco and los angeles by 1957 whereby 58ing Television Contract more wealth generates which players can share it. That is all true so in a sense retreated from jim crow with beneficial, to many. But it wouldnt necessarily for people like pete grey, and i think also complements if you like what i just said are intellectual and leaders down play the resistance as expressed in little rock in 1957 where president eisenhower has to deploy federal troops for the high school and oxford, Mississippi University of mississippi federal troops have to be deploy sod that james can desegregate university of mississippi. Ed at th boston cries so show it is not just limited to presinglecinct f dixie and anybody familiar with bill russell blk american basketball star is and his memoir talking about race are schism in boston readily attest to that. Or in 1980s and 1990s and yonker with housing desegregation crisis which was just very about usefully depicted in drama showed me a hero which i recommend. But that resistance oftentimes since to be down played that is sort of assumed that people think its a good idea to move away from jim crow and move away from desegregation makes them surprise, surprise. When a donald j. Trump rises and is able to garner mass support that was the headline from gail, the column in the New York Times just a day or two ago when express surprise on anybody about. And you have a number of people who express the the prize butrt that shows me they arent familiar with the history of this country or reality of this country. And even some of the trends on the left Vice President been help of the in this regard. Paul of the New York Times to his credit and column just a few days ago introduce the concept of flight national. But that come from a liberal not from one left of liberal. The conserve la times columnist gentleman goldberg talking about what he calls white identity politics in materials of explain the rise of donald j. Trump that didnt come from our friends left of liberalism. That comes from a conservative. One of the problems that we face in this country is that thosee who consider themselves the most sophisticated in terms of their analysis oftentimes are also are not happy. Smflt people i dont think they read newspapers every day which should be task one for anybody who is serious about politics. In any case, that is my speel opinion where does the term come from . [inaudible] menstrual c, that was a very popular Performance Art in the 19th century that involved among other things qhiet white americans imitating a fashion the way they thought black americans act and acted it ludes to black that suggest that it is really making a comeback in us a trails australia and, of course, made a semicomeback here, about not strong but a semi comeback and jim crow has u. S. Style appar tight separate but equal make reference to and separate bibles in the courtroom. Separate schools. The legacy of or historically black college and University Posted some from the Texas Southern university which in some ways is right across the street from university of houston. Its very stark and legacy of the jim crow era. When you go to Ivy League School being black, i think it could either cause you to want to join the u. S. Ruling elite or to rebel against ruling elite and i fell into the second category an interview you did on the real news therk. Inch went to princeton, and, of course, people say about the merle. When youre in the military i thought tooing not necessarily for the flag although im sure that comes into account but for that buddy of yours in the fox hole. Thats the way i look at princeton i made very good friends there, and and they have a good thing going, so the good people when theyre 17 or 18, theyre first coming into maturity and princeton able to raise so much money and other schools because people have you get this emotional attachment because of yourur experiences that a place like this. It was unsaid when there was a a it search for Osama Bin Laden before he was killed that if he had been of princeton it would have founded fundraising letterh all of the time. So politics because i was involved in the investment movement. That is to say as undergraduates approaching Princeton University ties to corporation invested in south africa. So we occupy a building and protest of princeton ties to south africa. I recall helping to raise money for the students in orangeburg, south carolina, who i believe were killed in 1969. And recall driving minnesota to a fundraiser philadelphia so money can be distributed to the students. But it wasnt, of course, this all protest being princeton, of course, i was going to class as well. And trying to do well. Although i must say being princeton also primed me for what im doing today because i recall when i was in the classroom with princeton in between listening to the teacher and lecturing id be plottings what i would be doing succeeding weekends okay this weekend ill go to new york. Weekend after that ill go to philadelphia. Weekend after that ill go to washington. Now, of course, im going to all of these places to do research. I wasnt doing that, of course, as undergraduate of princeton but going to socialize, so to speak. Going t so i have to say i have a decent experience in princeton. How did you get there . E well this is a very good question. Whats happening at that moment which actually gets us back to this research is that theres presh on this institution to desegregate. Re theres pressure coming from on high to desegregate, and princeton begins to shook out people like myself so turns out i really to know that growing up in st. Louis, i have to confess even though i was reading it newspapers, i mean my first job was maybe six or seven years old. Paperwork soy used to read st. Louis post although comic strip and sports page. But still because i was readingd sports page i knew about bill bradley so who at that time was a basketball star princeton. And was taking princeton to the highest stratosphere of the ncaa basketball championship. And he was from crystal city, missouri not that far from st. Louis. And so even though i wasnt going to play on princeton Basketball Team i got to captivate it and then they came knocking on my door so to apply and here i am. What did your parents do in st. Louis . My father was a truck driver. Now, my sister is in st. Louis they like me to say that my mother was a homemaker. And thats true but i certainlyy recall her working doing gate work, workings a maid home of a fluent wife. I have a distinct mile of that. Theyre both from mississippi. My mother from stockville mississippi, home of Mississippi State university, and my father from columbus west point, mississippi. Its heart of darkness when it comes to dixie and jim crow i grew up with stories about mississippi. My mother used to say dont tell me nothing about mississippi. I mean stories about you know how they get off the sidewalk, just qhiets coming sidewalk you have to step off into the gutter and you know, just horror stories. I was i have to say nervous and apprehensive for the longest because of nervousness an i have gone to oxford but i havent visited mississippi as often as i should because of the certain nervousness although realistic that attitude that i have andc somewhere buried in my conscienceness so my father as a truck driver he was a member ofe the team union that used to bill itself as the Largest Union not only in the United States but in capitalist world. And i used to read their publication an mailed to our house. And subsequently but not then, become fascinated with the st. Louis, because they have a very interesting leadership Harold Gibbons now, of course, teamster or union that understandably and justifiably known for corruption and organized crime tide, but st. Louis was somewhat different. Harold gibbens something was a social democrat. And then he helped to worked with other black leaders of the teamster like Ernest Callaway so thats sort of working class environment that i u grew up with in st. Louis which im sure led to me developing to subspecialty of labor history. Gerald horne in ark of u. S. History in your history how pant is the 2008 election . I think it is very significant. Now, its true that many overstated the case. Perhaps understandably. This idea of a post Racial Society for example, was a clear overstatement. Given the u. S. Torture u. S. Path enslavement of african and jim crow just not past it is earth shat ring and rt shaking that a black president was elected. Although theres a long textural footnote in my book that deals with diverse origin of black americans. I put forth idea that therestl been a special prosecution of the defendant of enslaveried africans in north america. Which is not to say that slack from immigrant background like barack obama have escape prosecution but as a matter of fact i cannot read to read memoir literature from this administration because im sure well be read many stories about the kind of disrespect that he receives as first black president which i think has Foreign Policy consequence in terms of if foreigners foreign leaders say if these powerful elements in the United States dont respect them why should if but having is said that i dont find it accidental that first black president imrangt background opposed to enslave africans for example, the activism angela davis talks about growing up in birmingham, alabama, in dreamy and french where she says that in order to try to evade structure that jim crow and birmingham he would go in and speak french and then they would not receive her as a descendant of africans and im writing this book aviation so theres thiss black pilot. Who was born in trinidad who talks about how hes able to escapes more structure of jim crow and dixie by affecting [inaudible] for example. Therefore hes nots perceived as enslave africans or take the singer is gonzalez or lee brown in newark, new jersey and hel feels feels that if he takes the name gonzalez that he will not be perceived as enslave africans. All of these story ises from jim crow area from black american and african princes and ing all kinds of different ways, of course,. Passing that went on to be the leader of u. S. Fashion some fascism he was light skinned obviously and was very cultured. And that helped them to evade the reality he was born jim crow atlanta. He was a negro particularly then. So he crossed the color line. And so yes, 2008 was the turning point in terms of the u. S. History although i think that it was david axelrod, barack obama is advisor that growth in the New York Times a month ago that in the larger scheme of things you could see the rise as a kind of counterreaction to barack obama just as it is in some ways a counterreaction to george w. Bush to say this cowboy his foreignpolicy to the antiwar stance with the ways of crawford texas and then of course thee counterreaction to Donald Trumpf host gerald horne has taught at uc santa barbara, and you see zimbabwe, chapel hill, the university of hong kong ands since 2003 has been professor of historprofessor ofhistory and an studies at the university of houston after he graduated from princeton, he went to get his degree from uc berkeley from the masters from columbia and phd from columbia as well. We talked for an hour now. Yo its your turn. If you cant get through on the phone, try social media and we will filter through those as well. Here in washington, d. C. , you are the first call. Call cooking with spain the role of haiti . Host by is that of interest to you . Caller they talk about theol influence on africanamericans and United States the founding of the United States and that question needs to be addressed. Thank you for that question. The subject of my book that came out last year in this book by nature argument is that the haitian revolution 1791 to 1804, but successful revolt of thethev enslaved ignited a general crisis of the system in the americas that could only be resolved with its collapsein therefore we in the United States particularly though an eternal debt of gratitude that can never be successfully repa repaid. Thats a point that is not only made by mmade by me but his secy douglas, th the abolitionist was madabolitionists asthey fight te w. E. B. Du boise. Often it is discussed in france in the defeat of the colonial power on the island in the liquidated interests leading directly to the Louisiana Purchase of 180 1803 that hopeso expand the boundaries of thebo United States of america with the Louisiana Purchase. It gets short with the land andt theft that this is a footnote he noticewenoticed that the basebae in reaction to the controversysr about the National Anthem starting to play in certain locations which is a step forward. D. But in other ways this land is your land in some ways ebay is the question of colonial, colonialism but often times in any case the successfulutionaris revolution theyd try to spread the gospel as possible to say the revolt in virginia sort of 1800 was inspired by the revolution and in barbados in 1816 which led to britain directly moving to abolish slavery inspired by the revolution as i talk about in my book. In in 1831 in virginia which is ignited almost 40 years to the day after august 1791 when the revolution is ignited. Of course the movie birth of a nation that i cant wait to see opens in a few days. Host from counterpunch published this month or last month, historian gerald horne explains why no one should stano for the National Anthem and asked if refusal to honor the u. S. National anthem given his background and surrounding history should be the norm rather than the exception, horne replied categorically of course. Guest first it provides cover for those athletes that are courageously protesting the National Anthems not only the one that received Death Threats but the Seattle Seahawks have received Death Threats. They published the political elite in nebraska thought to reprimand and rebuke them in the womens Basketball Team. There are some very disturbing lyrics in the National Anthem which by the way as i recall was not adopted as a National Land m in the 20th century. The leader asked thathe specifically and poignantly denounced the population from the context in the war of 1812 and if you follow what i said follow about 1876 it should come as no surprise that they had a choice between the dirty shirt of london or washington and they chose the dirty shirt including indepth to august of 1814 whens the redcoats zapped the city fleeing one step ahead and of course they were in solidarity. Many of these wind up getting on ships and sailing to freedom. In fact i was going to give a talk on the subject a few yearsd ago and they had fled interestingly enough. It was an Important University that just rubbed the negroes that sided with the british wound up being re enslaved and that was the munro thatnroe investigated the claim that shows you how potent the propaganda can be. In any case, the National Anthem there are many cases where it was defeated but moved to adopt a new National Anthem. Youve already see discussion of that in this country people say america the beautiful and in some ways it can be very revealing with these clear x. A eight and with a certain kind of attitude that often times people are forgotten. It reveals another story that youve had a certain integrati integration. We had a certain kind of integration windows have been left out of the bounds that forced their way in but then the sort of pull to adjust to the contemporary reality whenn actually what we need is transformation. Host doctor horne, double question. Why do we play the National Anthem at sporting events and private organizations and who cares what the Second String quarterback of the 40 niners thinks about anything . Guest in defense of number seven, i was talking to one of your assistance that i agree with of course the coach doesnt have a very good reputation in that regard in terms of dealing with black athletes let the deal record show. Go back and look at the Philadelphia Inquirer when he was coaching the eagles were example. A second osecond of all, horne y intelligent young man ive been reading about how he was coming to consciousness and a member of the fraternity by the way and i agree as long as it is going to be played by sean jackson of the washington pro football team. Host the next calls for our guests comes from herald in jackson mississippi. Caller i think you are quite right about the National Anthem being a necessary private event but my question is do you think the Republican Party with a de facto nationalist party they have been for a long time are they willing to break federal . Guest it is being revived. The term doesnt emerge from our friends to the left who in many ways have been asleep at the switch when it comes to asl analyzing the phenomenon. They keep urging people on the left not to vote for the green even though we know thestein evt president ial election gets the most votes and despite the fact they are not paying attention tn this phenomenon where garych johnson has been endorsed by the tribune and he is pulling about nine or 10 , he presents a threat to social security, medicaid and medicare and yet our friends on the left are not necessarily clamoring against gary johnson, they are against joel stein. It seems like a misplaced. Further, we need an interrogation of this nationalism. The aspects of the u. S. Academia in recent years has been the rise of literature, that is to say trying to ascertain how and why it was that those that often times are on the shores of europe english versus french and scott and german versus british etc. All of a sudden they crossed the atlantic and they are transform into this. The scholars have paid attention to that but somehow the whiteness of the literature has been lost which helps to explain why so many folks have beenor unable to come to grips with this phenomenon not least the support he is receiving and some of our friends on the left are torturing the numbers to an extent you would think. You have questions about them even. Its almost like the mythical french intellectual but says what youre saying is true in practice. The question is it true in theory. If it disrupts the theory that they stick to the theory nonetheless. Host in new jersey and email professor horne do you believe the Ecology Movement is looked upon as a marxist attempt for the freemarket schemes. I think it came up with the first debate by secretary clinton. It was in order to destabilize the United States and certainly it seems to me the neededcu discussion about the socalled free market. I think that if you look and try to examine how and why it is that theres so much animosity and antipathy towards governme government. S often times it is due to the exercise with the students because they are nowadays in the class. So i go in and snatch their smart phone and say how wouldtoh you feel if i take this property of yours you would be very upset and happy. What happened to the slaveownerr it was one of the largest inaves private property in history up to that point. And the africans Walking Around all cheeky saying i didnt like you anyway. The discussion we need if we are going to try to figure out how they are going to execute measures with regard to Climate Change this is one that involves government. I dont see how you are going to escape the potential catastrophe without government involvement. But with this hostility to government in the country it seems that we are getting perilously close to this ideology becoming lifethreatening. Host your own withh universy University History professor. Go ahead. Caller greetings. My hope one day is that you come to ohio. My state is somewhere close byca so i can get you to sign the eight books i bought from you and my dictionary. I want you to sign that, too. Can you share some of the technical challenges that you often encounter in your research. I know the purpose of the counterrevolution of 1776, the issue with the slavery transcript i and second, how can we get those that are mandated as truth and history in american schools, college high schools, college, elementary, middle school eliminated . Caller it was the very constitution that waconstitutioo support slavery and the foundinh of america as the show in the counterrevolution. Its just a plethora of the my myth. Guest with regards to thesc transcripts of the society which is a very good source by the way particularly from say the glorious revolution of 1688 up through the Early National period in the United States of america. But in the introduction i note they encountered the source that becomes a source from the 1776 book i exit the society on Central Park West in manhattan and of course i have difficulty walking down a taxi and then i i go down to this little anecdote about how our ancestors turn a negative int into positive and started walking and getting exercises and guaranteeing i will live to fight another day and made an analogy to when i lived in hong kong when the taxi drivers used to pass by chinese pick me up. Thats only because they probably thought that i was a tourist that would give them a nice tip. But when i went into this race n about how another major issue that many of the leaders and intellectuals what impact would that have. Segregation means you cant necessarily come into the archives so it hampers the ability to do the research and to tell the tale which is one of the reasons its my generationon that should be because we generally have access. Remember the episode the university of washington in seattle they were giving me such a hard time which might rule in the archivist that the archivist is always right. If theres any questions about that i revert to rule number one, the archivist is always right. So fortunately, that hasnt been the norm although ive had difficulties and they wouldnt let me in to do my research for whatever reason. With regards to ohio, i will be visiting sometime next year because im giving this book on Southern Africa and there is an interesting collection of mozambique but i want to consult dealing with the founding fathers. Now the ruling party so i will be visiting their. I was there just this summer at the rock n roll hall of fame. It was the highest ranks of the elite becoming fabulously fluidb while there and of course they supported many artists. Host it sounds like you are working on three or four. What is the process . Guest it starts with the idea and sometimes the idea comes from conversations that you have with people poured into the 1776 books then of course theres interest i wrote twoou books on film. I would really like to i would like to do a story about baseball. You have to come up with an id idea. You have to find sources that involves dealing with archives and then you take notes. They didnt take notes so you take notes and then print them and try to organize them into chapters and then you write. Host mle from boulder colorado. Caller ive never calledca into a show but ive learned a lot from both tv an booktv and e an error earlier and i would like to discuss that and make a brief remark about francis scoth key the author of the starspangled banner, and i learned this from booktv. He was the brotherinlaw of roger tommy. Host the former chief justice. Caller yes. Thats another reason we should choose another song. Host what is the error deity wanted to point out . Caller i noticed the more it looks it would spread. Youve mispronounced the word robeson. I grew up in a leftwing household and they heard the name frequently as a child and met him when i was 5yearsold, a wasted opportunity to follow up on a valuable contact. It is two syllables, robeson and i would like to list a few people that have talked about him. The term ghostwriter and biographer i was a friend for years before the end of his life and he always said robison. Also, paul junior i met him. I worked at the New York Historical society when they did the exhibition in 1998. After i solved the exhibitio sai noticed while i was reading it i noticed air curs and i worked in Book Publishing and the time and that was my job but they allowed me to do some corrections and thats how i met him. I heard him speak on booktv and they all use what i consider the correct pronunciation. Host thank you. Emily sounds pretty fascinating. I wont refer now. Guest i plead guilty. I think that may come from pronunciations ive heard in North Carolina that i left in fact the correct pronunciation. I knew lloyd brown. I think that hes passed away by now. As a matter of fact, for many reasons i regret she was a biographer and thats because for a while i was thinking about doing a book on the relations between germany and america which has been quite extensive but not necessarily covered extensively. The biography of his bottom is quite good because often you run into people that have a famous relative and they never get done and its not adequate to the task but the two volume biography is very good. Host professor horne, did the naacp start out as a radical organization . Guest is a Fair Assessment if you consider that the founding in 1909 involved the collaboration between black americans such as w. E. B. Du boise and many socialistscome and of course himself he considered himself a socialist at the time. But this wasnt necessarily unusual because as ive tried to suggest its not as if jim crow was an unpopular cause by those that didnt have to suffer undeh his slings and arrows. But the naacp as i said in my first book has to go through turmoil. He served with the naacp he had a falling out in the organization and goes to teach in Atlanta University where he pens his magnificent talent black reconstruction which is a socalled revisionist take that would remind us all if we need reminding that the job of historians is revising history and telling a different story based on the interpretations and new sources come some things that often times come aboutbo after he comes back in 1944 they engage in antifascist era when the soviet union and the United States from the same side fighting japan companys director of Foreign Relations and the red scare is underway. Hes not interested in supporting harry s. Truman which is the line taken including Walter Wright and slogans in support of Henry Wallace who was considered one of the closest friends with the secretary of agriculture. He runs a thirdparty candidacy and this leads to concessions. He moves to desegregate the military. But then there are certain compromises to leave you in an advantageous position to march forward in certain other compromises that are crippling and my historical element is that the left and the radical and the naacp is a handicap compromise from which the naacp and the black movement is yes to recover and i would say the same thing from people like harry bridges who i mentioned. M he of course is sent back to jamaica this is a devastating impact on the working class. In places like youngstown ohioaf in Eastern Kentucky and West Virginia trying to convince people to vote for donald trump and also has a devastating impact on the black working class. Getting prepared to deal with the globalization andll International Challenges etc. Thats my own historical estimate of course. Caller thank you for allowing me to ask a question, thank you very much. E i have a question about a book i read by daniel called the american uprising. This revolution is the revolt of the establishment of the United States because of the troops that were brought down at the time and established in that part of the country and i wonder if you can shed some light on that because it is a search of this many people i talk to know nothing about the revolution. So i wonder if you can shed some light on that. Guest it was a graduate thesis turned into a book and many historians dismissed the buck but i think its significant that revolt that takes place in louisiana intake circuit 1811. The reputation of being ation of significant revolt of the enslaved in the history of the. I talk about that particular t revolt in my haitian revolution but because many of the africans that are involved in that revolt had come to louisiana after they fled with them to louisiana but once again having seen them at me in horror at the sight of increase africans they were inspired to emulate the haitian revolution. It also comes up if i am not mistaken. With regards to its impact im not sure what it meant for the United States. Im not sure what they meant by that. Host every guest we have here we ask him or her to suppla a list of their favorite writers, what they are reading, some of their influences. We want to show you professoru h horne. Answers to those questions. And our conversation continues here on booktv. 7488200 in east and central time zones, each 201 for those of you in the mountain and pacific. Several ways of getting a hold of us on social media as well. Booktv cspan and you can also make a comment on the facebookda page. View listed Shirley Graham book as one of your favorites. Who was she . Guest she was a black woman passing away interestingly enough in china in the midlate 1970s and between, she was a writer of opera, biographies, but shes probably better known as the second wife of w. E. B. Du boise and it was with him she further to prominence to a degree that is to say they migrated to west africa and 61 and a w. E. B. Du boise was slated to organize the encyclopedia africana and after he passed away she became the director and was trying to do some experiments with television converting it to something perhaps as elevated and influential as cspan, believe it or not. And unfortunately for her the government was overthrown and the ambassador at the time was Franklin Williams who was the naacp official in black america who then they blamed him to a degree and it was an interesting confluence of the two lines in the black movement that is to say one trying to oppose the foreignpolicy and the other supporting her. In any case, he migrate to live, in cairo but then she becomes a follower of maoist china that explains whbutexplains why she a iinto to a certain degree is still celebrated in china. But her novel is a version of the fact that heart transplants you may recall were carried out by doctor christian bernard. So it is reminiscent of the great Science Fiction writer that passed away insofar as the people that are transformed by invention of a call so not only because i can talk about Shirley Graham but its a standin for an interest i have in creative writing and stories and filmmaking screenplay writing w etc. Host have to ask about a it but you are currently reading, sex workers, psychics and number runners. Guest a young black woman historian we were sitting on a panel a few months ago and she was crying kind and gracious enough to get a copy of her book as often happens when someone is gracious and in this case im learning a lot. I will probably see her in a few days of the conference i mentioned in richmond virginia. The panel we were on she was talking about more about cook who was a black woman journalist who provided some of the source material for some of her stories about the sex workers and number runners. She was also close to the family of roy wilkins even to be a different sides. I recommend the book highly. Its part of the list that comes to us courtesy illinois press. Host going to have to put you on hold until you turned on the volume on your phone and reminder you are going to hear o delay if you keep your tv up when you answer the phone. Diane in st. Petersburg florida. Caller thank you for this Wonderful Program today and to booktv. My question is do you have any insight into the new smithsonian and does it really represent the level suffered by african slaves . Well, s guest sadly i havent had h the opportunity to visit thisy museum and understand its hard to get admission and its not with particular informed insight but speaking of the generalization it seems to be an victory that is to say the fact that the tortuous journey of the dissent is being recognized. Does it represent the atrocities im not sure but i will say this i think is really violent compared to the first version of the 1970s and im not sure whyes that is, im not sure if it is because it was downplayed in the 1970s or people were more willing to accept violence on the screen but it seemed so foreign that once again thats reflective of the reality because if you look at the advertisements that is a major source for historians you often times find they say hes missing all his front teeth. If he speaks a certain kind of brutality that is reflected as well but is talked at great length and you would recall Frederick Douglass from this metropolitan area spoke not only of the violence but about how confronting violence is a necessary part of his growth as a human being in the developmenr of his psyche. Host what do you think about the movie something youve referenced in your books gone with the wind . Guest interestingly enough, i was at the University Georgia aspen a few weeks ago where the papers of Margaret Mitchell were cited and i was looking for the. Papers to see how gone with the wind was received in Southern Africa and south africa. Theres quite a bit of how it is received all over the world. Knowing scholars it probably has been done but somebody should go to the papers and talk about how that was received overseas. I would have to say im not a fan. I think it presents a sort of moonlight magnolia version of slavery a sort of glorified version of this horriblele institution and it helps to solidify my opinion. The support that was existing in obtaining in atlanta and georgia at the time and by the way, strikingly enough it was founded in 1332 as a socalled colony, no negroes allowed not least because they were always trying to align with the spanish in florida and points northward including West Virginia, so georgia was going to be this grateful separating spanish florida from south carolina, virginia but it didnt work out very well since the census showed atlanta and georgia have one of the most significant populations and it didnt work out as well also because it was hard to find people to work inau the field and plus it was reintroducing the contradictione when you have europeans in the field and in the big house it disrupts the united front and in any case, the slave trader were masters of smuggling said the slave trade was one of the most lucrative known to humankind. With that kind of profit of course they would sell their firstborn daughter to one they didnt know so in any case i recommend the Margaret Mitchelll paper at the university of georgia. They are quite well organized. The archivists have done a good job and they are friendly by the way so a visit there must not be avoided. Host there is a good chance if you flew into National Airport and took Jefferson Davis highway into the sea, there is an effort to rename it. Guest its long overdue. Its quite striking that those i that tried to overthrow the u. S. Government and hope to inflict hundreds of thousands of casualties on this plan more than indiana and yet they are mg celebrated. As i tried to explain in the story and theyve not done a good job of explaining. There was a succession in 1786 because it was the case in 1782 but they didnt accept that distinction of profits that it portended and they were kicked out and then in 1836 you have the texas secession from mexico after they move to abolish slavery and they had 180 years before the election of barackar obama and the secessionists succeeded in have to come crawling back to join in 1845 because they put so much pressure on him that they thought they would be overthrown and liquidated so they joined the United States and in 1861 and other secession so i think it is understandable because they thought that they were just continuing 1776 and of course they try to tow story. They knew the constitution wasnt designed to afflictr africans to put it mildly. It was designed they should hav just waited they should wait for these to flower. This is one of the reasons they are within walking distance ofsn the studio. Enrollment of the history classes continue to go down because they are not buying this stuff and the historians seem unable to change. Its to say it would hopefully help us to understand the great procession of 2007 and 2008. The problem is in the way historians are trained to compete at the older historians are training people just likeepp themselves which means it continues to be perpetuated thus far. Ca host i am more troubled by the embrace of socialism. Ce of question if socialism is such a blessing why not the mass migration of american blacks and those nigerian emigrants he mentioned to the socialistac paradise of cuba and venezuela . Guest thats a very good question. I think that socialism suffered a blow. Obviously cuba suffered a blow when Eastern Europe collapsedps but i would repeat what i just said that the french novelist suggested that behind every Great Fortune there is a great crime. I would suggest behind everyor great nation there is a crimet particularly in a nation like the United States. I dont think that we lose anything by pointing through the nature of this country and its history particularly how it is doubtful the people. With regards to cuba i will always be indexed t indebted toe i am to haiti and the reason is you might recall when Nelson Mandela had to stand on december the 2013 at the age of 95 only a few heads of state were allowede to speak one was fidel castro of cuba and that is because of the role of helping to liberate Southern Africa impact i was at the Gerald Ford Library in annrd arbor going through the papers of Henry Kissinger and these other characters and in july of 1975, this is right before the independence that cuba helped safeguard, kissinger and his staff were running around with their hair on fire because theyn were worried that the cuban troops might intervene and march so they prepared legal memorandum that suggested the cuban troops might be justified but it wouldnt be justified in going to south africa so this is what people were thinking about and i daresay one of the reasons why the government and the party of Nelson Mandela had so muchrnt difficulty in constructing what they promised the voters which i think weve all underestimated the decisive role of bringing the rulers to the table, but the cubans were not necessarily involved in constructing the post 94 south African Society such as obvious and one of the reasons why castro of cuba was one of the few heads of state that spoke at the funeral and so cuba is obviously having difficulty. This speaks to press coverage with the normalization that is one of the signal victories in terms of diplomacy including the article in the new yorker about jon lee anderson. Its always portrayed as the United States being benevolent when actually if you study this question which you will find is that the United States theres s evidence by Barack Obamas attempt to reset with moscow. You might recall they had met with the caribbean leaders and the Chinese Investment is flooding into the baja just off the tip of southern florida. The United States has good reason to have normalized relations to avoid another october 1962 crisis which is when moscow was afraid of replacing them to safeguard cuba from the invasion to the United States. The United States has good strategic reasons right now to have normalized relations in the broad context of things thatat would be lasting for some timeen to come. That is missing from the mainstream u. S. Press. Host barbara, newark new jersey please go ahead. Caller i have a comment and a question. As long as there is a criminal element and as long as there is but one sold in jail i am not free. Until we all have a consciousness of connected us instead of our ego and drama and desire for excessive money, fame and power, we will have comparisons and identitywa conflicts. Is there any way he thinks that we can have consciousness where instead of our identity as race or class or whatever can we ever have complete connection at a consciousness and then we would have self validity in defense of all being connected, and i wanted to ask a question about by angelo host we are going to leave it at that first question so we can get more questions in. Professor horne . Which is what is to be done how can we move forward progressively obviously it is an excellent question. The only thing i would say is if theres studied the great scope of a black American History over the centuries that it leaves two lessons. One is the necessity for organization and i would say the same holds true for everyone and second internationalism reaching across the borders and reaching across the ocean one of the points that leads leaps out of you in particular is how so often the correlation of forces the balance of forces were so against us that in order to count counterveil that negative balance we have to have global and International Alliances and thats one of the things missing now. I dare say that its a lesson that i would hope that black lives Matter Movement studies very carefully and intensively. Host david, San Francisco, good afternoon. Caller yes, thank you. Dr. Horne, i was so thrilled to see your name come up on the in depth calendar because one of my proudest political actions in my life was voting for you for vicepresident on the ron daniels ticket in 1992, not just in the november election, but at the peace and Freedom Party nominating convention in august of that year in san diegoment so i just wanted to lay that on you and find out what you think about that in 1992, your memories and how you think it might relate to today and the whole lesser evil thing. So, thank you very much. Guest david, what do you do in San Francisco . Sorry . What do you do . Im an office worker. Guest and i was a chairman, chairman horne. When youre running for Office People think they can come up to you and talk to you about anything, family members, history, politics, i learned a lot by talking to people, i got over 300,000 votes, ill talk about the quantity, not percentage. Host in california. Guest from the left, it did not allow them to prevail, Diane Stein Feinstein is still there 2016. And votes, black americans, appreciated having, quote, one of their own, quote, unquote, throw his hat into the ring, for a high office, which was unusual. Host what was your platform . Its interesting, i have the tshirt from that era and i recall we had a french horn in the shape of the horn of plenty, a cornucopia, cute. And of course, free college tuition, we anticipated that for Public Institutions which Bernie Sanders and Hillary Rodham clinton are touting of course. Medicare for all, of course. Cutting the pentagon budget dramatically, slashing it and applying it to human needs which presupposes a noninterventional, shutting down these scores and military bases that the United States have all over the world and that those human needs and the basic planks. Host what does it cost to go to the university of houston for a year . I cant remember. A question, i cant answer, sadly enough. Host rosemary i is in penn valley, california. And rosemary, youre on book tv on cspan 2. Caller thank you very much. My question is perhaps similar to the lady from new jersey. Its about not to negate any history or facts, but just what would dr. Hornes idea be about what the Scientists Say that we are all from africa, originally, and so as far as black and white or any other ethnicity goes, were all mixed and you know, is that like a believable thing . And also, how it applies to our president obama, who hes termed black president , our first black president , and, but he is biracial and michelle referred to him as biracial recently in the National News and why is he black not white because hes my president. Im predominantly white, but you know, getting ready to do that 23 and me because my aunt said she did it and we have africanamerican ethnicity and thats my question and id like to know what dr. Hornes idea is. Host rosemary in penn valley, california. Guest well, these terms start off are historically constructed. The United States has adhered to the one drop rule. You can look like george w. Bush or madonna, whether you have one quote drop african blood, unquote, youre black. As ive told my students at university of houston, you could have an average person getting out the vote in new orleans in the 1850s and is kidnapped. They would say im not a slave, yeah, you are. You look like this slave over here. So, obviously, it expands the boundaries of slavery. Secondly, it helped to denigrate blackness which then if facilitates, the socalled lee system where black people were arrested on spurious grounds and leased out to major corporations for profitmaking purposes and, of course, equating black people with criminal, which is one of the reasons we still have so many problems in terms of these police killings, the equation of blackness with criminality. With regard to whiteness, thanks to david wallstriker, a colleague at new york city Graduate Center when i was writing by 1776 book, turned me onto the secondary source that talks about the origins and construction of whiteness, according to the second source it comes up in the context of the further expansion of the americas, the native americans, enslavement of africans because if you think about it in 17th century everybody is quote, white, unquote, so theres no need for differentiation and the only differentiation comes with the rise of colonialism, slavery and et cetera. Im not an anthropologist, but to my understand we have roots from africa, and east africa. I think the caller makes a solid point to that extent. Host next call comes from lawrence in granada hills, california. Hello, lawrence. Caller dr. Horne, i wanted to get your take on reconstruction era and who my sage is, although its debated around modern president , but i think the worst president in United States history, Andrew Johnson. What is your take on that. Guest that was a title that was significant competition. I think i was reading James Buchanan before Abraham Lincoln as the worst president in u. S. History because after all, he helped it was during his term that the rhett scott decision, of course, he didnt write that decision, but Andrew Johnson, of course, in his attempt to c conciliate in his home state of tennessee, if im not mistaken, helps to set back the freedom struggle of the newly enslaved. Keep in mind, as well, that one of the points that is often times missing in this discussion of civil war and reconstruction, and i would say in u. S. History generally, or the concerted attempt to deport a black population of the United States of america, this was not only the case for Abraham Lincoln, who even after the emancipation proclamation was negotiating with the brazilians with regard to sending my ancestors to brazil. But dr, dominion republic, some were attempting to send to hispanola, if you look at the book, strangers if their own land, a study of working class conservativism and conservative in louisiana, the socialologist who writes the book takes away the point that many of these white conservatives, as they see it, black americans who are who excel up to and including barack obama, somehow are jumping the queue. In other words, they have an idea of United States as a white mans election as democrats said in 1864. So our presence is somehow illegitimate. When i was at university of georgia just a few weeks ago, i was reading in the congressional record from 1947 this idea, even then, of sending all the negros back to africa from the United States. So, yes, Andrew Johnson deserves critique, daring critique because of his failures of reconstruction, but if you look at him in the broader context of u. S. History he doesnt seem that unusual. Host this is a text from steven hall. He tweets historian speaks. Why is conceptualizing africanAmerican History in International Terms essential to understanding this experience . Well, first of all, as Jesse Jackson once said,our presence in north america is a result of a Foreign Policy, the african slave trade. When i teach introduction to africanamerican studies, one of the points i begin with is the fundamental question, which is how is it that folks with roots in west africa, minority in east africa, wind up in north america speaking a language english developed in northwest europe . Obviously, this is a product of an international experience. When i teach africanAmerican History im sure if you could wake up my students im teaching tuesday afternoon, you wake them up in the middle of night and ask them 1453, theyll immediately spout thats the time when the muslims were able to seize what is now istanbul, constantinople which blocks the eastward path to the riches of asia, it leads directly to the spanish sending Christopher Columbus across the ocean blue in 1492, leading to the encounter with the Indigenous People we thought were indians, which is one of the reasons theyre called indians and enslavement of africans. This is part of a global experience. To try to limit it to the four corners of north america, particularly in light of what ive said about our alliances with spanish florida and british settlers, alliances with moscow, alliances with india, alliances with japan, just to try to limit it with north america, seems to me, is historical malpractice. Host and lets talk with ed. A question that has never been addressed and that is the aftermath of the haitian slavery role. Those who led the revolution through the french, chisstof they made themselves emporers and turned around and enslaved their own. That went through years until duvalier, who put them to death, there we could have used socialism, but the United States government would not help haiti because they saw duvalier as an ally against communism. How long are the poor haitians going to continue to suffer . Theres a serious class system. Those that have look with disdain on those who have not and there is no progress being made. A few have all the money and employing people for just a few cents a day. Theres also the rest of it, i dont know if youve heard of it, there were eightyearold children left at the door steps of families so that they could help clean the back yard in return for a meal, get no education. Im desperate as to what can be done to change haiti and make it better for the people. Guest im sorry, i thought you were finished. Thats a very difficult question. Like any revolutionary process such as the human revolution process that we were talking about, its very difficult in these small countries to embark upon this radical path as the haitians did in 1804 and have that path be smooth. She mentioned the United States and enmity from the United States after the haitian revolution. I talk in my book about the fact that there is credible evidence to suggest that then u. S. Secretary of state John C Calhoun, the hawkish south carolinaen, by the way continues to besmirch the campus to this day with prominent buildings with his name on it, and not only ideologies for slave owning, a long history of covert actions in the United States, John C Calhoun played a role in helping to split the island. You notice a small island shared by two nations, haiti and the Dominican Republic. And it led to conflict between the two countries that exist today. And in the 1930s when the dominican dictator mass massacred haitians. The haitian government had to pay reparations to the french and of course, many of the french migrated to louisiana and in the antebellum period. There was occupation by the United States about a hundred years ago, the supported of duvalier and i hope my left wing friends dont get mad at me, the Clinton Foundation after the earthquake in 2010 and indications of wrongdoing there. So, so the path for haiti has been difficult for them, politically. Ive written about india, written about african countries, you know, caribbean. Often times ive seen my role as focusing on the u. S. Role in these particular countries and ive been criticized for that, perhaps understandably and justifiably, but on the other hand, im very reluctant to from twashington d. C. To issue the stinging rebukes of the developing countries that had a difficult path. Although im utterly sympathetic to what the caller is talking about. I had to visit haiti to do this research and its not an easy assignment, living in haiti now. Professor horne, do you have any right wing friends . Right wing friends. Right wing friends in the black community, yes. Host what does that mean. Guest that means that i have many i have friends or colleagues or associates who are antiwhite, who think that this community cannot be redeemed and once again, i see my role as to engage with them, to understand them, but if my just castigate and denounce them by what im saying, by all of this evidence, im not sure it would be very helpful. Host youre a professor of history of africanamerican studies in university of houston. Why not just american studies . Well, if they had american studies at university of houston in a coherent, cognizable program id probably be part of it, but i have a sentimental and a political attachment to africanamerican studies. This is a field, as recent historians have suggested, that was a product of struggle. These critiques that ive been issuing of the historical profession in terms of their omission of certain subjects, or their distortions of certain subjects, this is what called for, this is why black students when i was a student were demanding africanamerican studies. And i think that the need for it continues to exist and i think that this you should know that this association for the study of africanamerican enrichment in a few days, its reaching the point where the annual conventions are outstripping the attendance at the annual conferences of the organization for american historians. And i think this is for a number of reasons. I think, one, people like me, the way i look at some of these mainstream historical organizations is that powerful that subject the negros to jim crowe, yes, sir. And now, who knows what comes next . Whereas this association, i know as early as 1915 we could people like myself could go to their meetings without feeling despised. So i say politically from my point of view, the course of this organization, desperate for a matter of survival and selfinterest. Host the next call for gerald horne comes from lloyd in st. Louis. Caller hello, how are you. Host how are you. Caller real good. Host go ahead, sir. Caller yes, i want to ask dr. Horne is he related to a george horne, a deputy fire chief and retired now and im a graduate of Sumner High School over 65 years ago and a couple of topics, biracial, many blacks are triracial for that matter and then we talk about black republicans. Blacks were republicans before white folks were republicans, at least the southern white folks and now as he read white trash by aisenberg. Ill hang up and listen to your response. Again, im proud of you. Take care, wish you the best. Bye. Host now, lloyd, before you leave. Lloyd, are you still with us . Yes. Host what did you do if you are retired . What did you do in st. Louis. Caller im a retired School Teacher and also an attorney. Host what are your politics . Well, im democrat. My parents were republicans when i was a kid. Im 82 years old and we had a mock election at Sumner High School in the 50s and the republican eisenhower won over stevenson, that goes to show you the history of black folks in america. Host thank you, sir. George sumner or george horne. Guest not to im not sure how i got this british name that i now carry. Second of all, what was the second question. Host the second one he went to Sumner High School. Was that your high school . No, i went to beaumont. Host and he talked about black republicans. Guest right, yeah, yeah, its true that the Republican Party, when it stretches back to the 1850s, it starts out being a party of the negro, so to speak, as Frederick Douglas said, the Republican Party is the ship and the sea. Or negro often times in alliance with the north and not often in alliance with folks in the south who had an armed wing ku klux klan and that party begins to disintegrate with the new deal of the 1930s and the black people begin to dessert the g. O. P. And programs often times excluded them, but they felt that was choosing the dirty shirt over the dirtier shirt, often times the unsafery unsavory and the third question and did you read white trash by aisenberg. Guest i mention literature, strangers in their own lands, and im sure you had him on the program aisenberg he is a white trash and to a lesser or greater extent theyre trying to explain this phenomenon thats staring us in the face, which, of course, its an interesting article today working white class woman in western pennsylvania who is supporting trump, holds all of these bizarre theories about the obama family, some of which are too indelegate to mention indelicate to mention on family tv. Nancy aisenberg is trying to look at the phenomenon how poor whites have been treated over the centuries. I havent read the book, but from the review i notice some of the reviews feel theres, so often happens with those who examine this phenom, that they tend to theres a tendency to speak about agencies, agencies of the oppressed, and selfassertion, but when it comes to white poor working class people voting republican, totally against their interests, theyre all duped, so, which is it . I mean, do they have agencies . Or are they all duped . I think the way to solve this conundrum is to go back into history as ive been suggesting over the past two hours or more, which is that at times, it was possible for them to get off the boat and be a part of this, land, taken from the native americans and with africans and the class ladder. And some think that history could repeat itself. Perhaps theyre not duped. Perhaps theyre making a cagey wager, which is the phrase from my 1776 book that history can be reversed 6789 my opinion is, i hope theyre wrong. Host somebody says to you, im voting for donald trump. Whats your gut reaction . Whats your emotional reaction . Well, it depends who that person is. I mean, if its carl icahn, the investor in new york, id say i totally understand. If its somebody, a coal miner in West Virginia, or Eastern Kentucky, i would do what im suggesting that other people do, try to engage with them. I mean, try to talk to them. Try to ask, what do you think youre going to get out of it. What do you think but at the same time, of course, i think some of these people who are voting for donald trump working class, i dont think that the media a tip to the Washington Post and New York Times, they havent used the analogy of jessie ventura, governor of minnesota. Why do the people in minnesota think that a professional wrestler, no denigration to professional wrestling, why would they think he would make a good governor. Theres an antielite, they want a pull in the china shop and disrupt the status grow. It reminds me of brexit in britain, a number of people voted for, which i understand obviously theres the super state of the european union, Like Washington they tended to bail out the wealthy and dump on the nonwealthy, but at the same time britain is going to, like these auto producing areas of britain where you have jobs in these auto plants, they already announced theyre going to down size investments so its going to punish those workers who voted for brexit. I would say its a direct product of history, that is to say not only where left wing trade unionists, like there was a right leaning path which helped to destabilize the u. S. Working class, but then the United States cuts to the deal with china decades ago, which is seen as a stroke of genius from richard nixon, and massive investments from china which was not foreseen creating in juggernaut, for the leading economy country, sooner rather than later. Certain economists say its already occurred. You might have noticed in the first words out of donald j. Tru trumps mouth was doe denunciation of china. And i couldnt see any good out of that conflict and that what what people are apparently voting for. Host do you think that donald trump is a racist . Certainly, i would say if action bespeaks racism. That is to say the prust has covered to a fair thee well the Housing Project in new york city, he was sued for barring black, potential black tenants. I would say that what helped to catapult him to the front ranks of the Republican Party in june 2015 when he descended the escalator in trump tower to make the monument is the talk in Uncertain Terms of mexicans and those of mexican origin. Its difficult to maintain diplomacy without white majority. Obviously that white ma jo are the is shrinking which leads some to believe that White Supremacy to shrink in numbers and that many whites feel they have something to gain by reimagining a White Supremacy. So, to that extent, that reeks of racism. Host next call for gerald horne is al in carthage, North Carolina, go ahead, al. Caller professor horne, ive got an idea on a book and love to talk more about white black power in appalachia. And theres a name for your book, to carry on from your book of modern history of the naacp, say from when julian bond, my brother became president up till today, kind of through the period of the last six years and attempts by my brother dr. Barber here in North Carolina, johnson in mississippi. My brother in texas and other state movements in the old confederacy and how that has tied to bring the naacp into the modern era. Guest well, thats a worthwhile project. And i would encourage anyone who embarks on that project to pay careful attention how the naacp dealt with Foreign Policy. Faegs, for example, in a book talking with the war, as ive noted theres been a kind of sir coup couple circumspe circumspection. I think the callers project is worthwhile and i encourage him to pursue it. Host this is a facebook comment from johanna cane. Dr. Horne do you believe theres a connection between african tribalism and jim crowe in america and is the same system playing a role in the numerous deaths in chicago which appears systemic . This is a hello from johanna from books theyre having a breakfast to watch book tv. Its my favorite bookstore. So, i wish that johanna would clarify, im not sure if i understand the import of the question. Tribalism in africa and jim crowe. Host tell you what, johanna, make a comment and well have our producer look for it. Go ahead. Caller i have a question for the professor. I was raised in hawaii and lived in hawaii back when harry bridges. In fact, i heard harry bridges one time. And the man called davis. I know obama was a friend of his, an older man at that time, but i also know that davis was born in kansas. I happen to have been born in kansas, but how did this davis get to hawaii and what did he do when he was there . And how did he meet obama . I know that he i have heard that he was there to help harry bridges. I dont know if thats true or not. Guest well, thank you, i referenced Marshall Davis when i context the hawaiian book and my remarks about him launched right wing blogs about the theory, the relationship between Frank Marshall davis, a radical, born in kansas as the caller said, comes to maturity, and the rise and fall Frank Marshall davis played a prominent role there because the black version of the Associated Press which had journalists across the globe and employed many of the leaders writers. Richard wright, et al, hughes. And the associated negro press started turning to the right. It couldnt withstand the hammer blows. Even though before it was very progressive. Evidented by the fact that hired Frank Marshall davis. Davis decide today move to hawaii because that was the citadel of progressivism under the u. S. Flag as ive already stated. He did know harry bridges. He did work a bit with the ilwu, but that wasnt his primary gig. Or his primary job, i must say. Although you can check my book on fighting in paradise, to doublecheck that. Now apparently Frank Marshall davis knew Barack Obamas paternal grandparents, particularly the father, and it was apparently through mr. Dunham that the Young Barack Obama met Marshall Davis. The Young Barack Obama comes back from indonesia to stay with his grandparents in honolulu and thats how he encounters Frank Marshall davis. Host this is greg carr tweeting in, professor horne how do you interment the news, our history is an effort in history, in American History. Guest i understand the sentiment, that came up in a strange way during Barack Obamas remarks at the opening of the africanAmerican History museum. I cant remember the quote, Something Like the museum shows africanamericans are not a burden. Something like that that i found to be offputting. I think because of the White Supremacy that strides the land and what youve already made reference to, these persistent and inconsistent efforts to deport the black people from north america, na that black scholars feel they have to assert that theyre part of this project, part of this narrative. I see that as a defensive reaction. Thats how i interpreted it at least although i will dare say there is there will come a time where it wont be necessary. Host cornell west writing a critique of the book between the world and me, how i wish the prophetic work of serious intellectuals like robin dg kelly and monty perry, eddie gloud, would give the attention that the media gives. Guest youre trying to put me on the hot seat here. I admire cornell west, i think hes one of the towering intellectuals of this era and im happy to call him a friend. I dont know coates. I think hes a very good writer. I understand why the book has been a run away best seller because its short, wellwritten and easily digestible. I think its antiracist. In fact, you might be interested to know that there are certain left wing writers who criticize coates for being antiracist. They question the whole concept, believe it or not. I wont go the rabbit hole on this concept, but it shows the ideological confusion in which we find ourselves. So i guess the bottom line is that despite my utter admiration for cornell west, i dont necessarily share his critique. Host gail is calling in from the suburbs of washington. Hi. Hi, how are you. Host good. Caller dr. Horne, thank you for your time. Ill make any question fast. Do you think hollywood and the north are responsible for the continuation of racism in this country. Ill explain. After the war the north let the south have its way. Two, we have confederate monuments not only in the south, but throughout the nation. And juxtapose to germany, there are no monuments to leaders. It wasnt just gone with the wind, the confederacy narrative was instilled in old hollywood movies. I recently saw a 1954 movie about miss leslie the statement is made in the movie, robert e. Lee, you cant question his character and i find it disturbing and i see it in a lot of hollywood movies. Host all right, thats gail in bethesda. Guest well, youre going to have to remind me of some of the points. Yes, the interesting thing about the african slave trade, it was largely financed from the north, places like new york city, newport, rhode island, an early citadel in the early century of the african slave trade. The africans were brought to the caribbean and to bixby. My book on u. S. Nationals, new york was a center piece of financing of the african slave trade to brazil. The late great historian, one of his first books was on the role of new york in terms of african slave trade and by the way, i was showing my students in class in houston just a few days ago, clips from the film gangs of new york which depict the antinegro riots there, circa 1862 during the u. S. Civil war when these irish people fresh off the boat felt they were conscripted to free the negros, riot and hang people from the street lamps, et cetera. So, yes, both new york in particular carries a heavy burden with regard to slavery and racism, just offloading this off on to dixie just wont wash. By the way, my friends in new york, some of them are living in a cocoon. I mean, you would think new york was red vienna when eric garner, the black american who was strangled on camera in the process of selling loose cigarettes in 2014 off Staten Island new york, by new york police officers, the prosecutor who failed to bring an indictment was elected to congress in new york. So, the caller has a very solid point and similarly for hollywood, run of the reason its written at length by hollywood, this complicity did not begin or end with gone with the wind. Birth of a nation coming out of circa a century goodbye griffith glorifies the ku klux klan which makes a rather ironic that the new birth of a nation is being released in a few days, and i cant wait to see. And one more point on new york. I served on the board of this publication thats left of liberal, headquartered in new york, and whats interesting is that my 1776 book, attempts to unpack the myths of the United States, its been received by black americans. Not so much because i showed them fighting, like americans like to see as fighting against slavery. And in one passage from the one book, capitalism of slavery, its poignant. A scholar is telling a black student, im sorry, i couldnt find episodes of resistance and revolt. And didnt read about the seminole wars in florida, the creole vote in 1841, raise revolt and take the boat to bahamas and freed by the british. There are all sorts of episod episodes, this left of liberal journal said i was antiwhite. Ive been sitting next to these squares for years, in these meetings, and accused of being in the tank for britain when i praised british evolutionism, accused, even on this illustrious program for being in the tank for moscow and werent they white . I mean, i know that if you critique the israel, you can be accused of being eantisemitic. But if you look at america, you can be accused of being antiwhite. Host what is that publication . They dont deserve a mention on this pra many. Host class struggle in hollywood and you wrote so much has been made of the red influence on the movie, antired propaganda is easier to discern. Guest thats for sure. Thats an understatement. I was for the fbi and also worth repeating during world war ii it when the United States and soviet union were at an alliance and hollywood produced moscow movies, mission to moscow you might find on youtube, josef stalin, song of russia, all pro soviet movies produced during world war ii and interestingly enough, even though black people, such as have been criticized for the alleged pro moscow sympathies supposedly not in sync with black aspirations ethe United States could be looked at saving layer skin. One for elite and another one for black people. Despite the war is red, who is going to be marking the anniversary of the bowl shlshev revolution, what has me interested in hollywood even more today is you find, i think in the New York Times today and certainly in the l. A. Times, but the group out of china, buying up the movie theaters, an investment with sonny which is a Japanese Corporation and wants to buy one of the big six studios and congress, right there in the city is getting very concerned about the group and its investments in hollywood. Of course, supposedly the wander group or a Chinese Concern perhaps interested in showing movies in china, the movie red dawn a remake of the old soviet movie of 1980s, soviet invasion in colorado, they wanted to have it at first be the chinese invasion of north america, but apparently they were concerned about the chinese markets, concerned about the wander group, chinese interest in hollywood and to the north koreans, the country of 19 Million People were going to invade the United States, a behemoth. No wonder it sunk at the box office. Host over 4,000 american strikes in 1945 and 1946. Guest well, theres a lot of pent up energy, theres the socalled no strike pledge of world war ii. Because of the United States and with the death match in berlin and tokyo and rome, that it requires the ultimate sacrifice at least by the working class, but then, theres this pentup energy in world war ii not only because of the strike pledge, but unleashed by the antifascist war and davis, wrote a biography, i mentioned, elected to new york city council. So the cio is surging, the industrial organizations merged with the labor, and merger takes place in 1955, leads to a great labor upsurge in hollywood. And thats a subject of my bo book, but of course the conference of studio unions a red baited and its leaders are charged with being communists although i show that they werent, but this was too convenient a charge to miss out on and so the union was bludgeoned into submission although i do point out on my other book on hollywood, the founder of the Screen Writers Guild and some of the most powerful antiracist cinema seen in the history of hollywood, including under the socalled black list, pride of beloved countries, first version based on the South African novel. Ive put forth the thesis in that book that the screen writers in some ways were the most sophisticated politically and argue that one of the reasons we speak of film as being a Steven Spielberg movie even though he just directed it, didnt write the screen play. In part its the screen writers, at least their guild, john lawton trumbold, a comrade, and the subject of a hollywood movie, not bad. Its interesting. Id really like to tackle hollywood again because we have so many stories were telling. Host what does the american commune ins party stand for today . Well, i would say it stands for socialism, for workers rights. Some say it stands tore antiracism. I would say that it stands for noninterventional Foreign Policy, but i would say like many communist parties around the world, its suffered tremendously in the wake of the collapse of the socialist project in Eastern Europe, which is another story because even though you have people cheerleading for the collapse of the socialist in Eastern Europe. If you look at whats replaced it, many people who are cheerleading for these replacements arent happy. Its interesting, once your grandfather begin to look at u. S. Foreign policy, i think theyll be struck by the fact theres whose kilt and even though the communists there must be Something Else going on here, thats the way the historians think. The question is what else is going on that leaves to this continuum of antagonism or if you look at hungary or the bond regime, overtones of antisemitism, antiimmigrant chaos being sewed. People were cheerleading whether they knew it or not for people to take over the communists. And now you have this, there hasnt been a return to look at that question to figure out what happened. I mean, i think its a line from the great gatsby, about how these talks create all of this damage and then walk away. This is whats been happening. Host from San Francisco, please go ahead with your question or comment for gerald horne on book tv. Caller thank you so much for this opportunity to engage with dr. Horne. I am in awe of your scholarship and what i really wanted to do is take you back on the caller from bethesda who spoke on the monuments that had been developed thus far in this country, but i wanted you to reflect on the need of more monuments for people who chopped and picked and planted cotton and speak on the african connection to that and its overall contribution to the economy and more specifically to the confederates and Jefferson Davis who owned davis bend, one of the major cotton plantations in america, and which in fact fueled his confederacy movement. But, benjamin montgomery, if you have any reference to him and his contributions to, you know, the ownership of davis, and how he did in fact become an ownership of jefferson daves plantation and him being the forerunner of by you mississippi, one of the first black townships, but more specifically, what i wanted you to talk about is the need to have a monument in tribute to that atherton narrative and ed dwight is in fact one of our team members and we are currently working on this project. Guest who is we . The Cotton Pickers we is carfr ink , inc. Out of mississippi delta and Mississippi State university. Were a team, b. B. King was an honorary chair along with dr. Maya angelo. Currently we have dr. Bobby rush who is a the honorary chair, but i would love to have professor hornes scholarship or opinion about the need to have a monument such as our historic fight that speaks to the significance of cotton in the america of the south or the American Economy overall. Host calling in from San Francisco. Guest well, first of all, i say right on to the idea of monuments to those who picked the cotton as im sure the caller knows more than most, slavery was not a side show in terms of the antebellum u. S. Economy. Slavery was the main event. Thats where capital was flowing. As a matter of fact, one of the thesis im going to develop this association of meeting enrichment i make reference to, we need need a redefinition of imperialism to take into account slavery in the export of capital as not only being banking capital exported from new york to the americas, but seeing capital in hume bodies being exported from the after cap continent to brazil, to cuba, to north america as this kind of precursor of imperialism and see that through. With regard to cotton, particularly a new book by a professor whose name escapes me, you may want to look at. Put in the two names and Search Engine and the book will pop up, in terms of cotton. In the point of my africanamerican research, the point ive could many to, my own research, if you look at the cotton industry, whats in part happening is that after the u. S. Civil war you see the lives of a slave trade in meanecia and they look just like me. Lets talk about the book my specifics and this, of course, ill exclude some of the intervening steps of the overthrow of the white kingdom in 1890s and the state and as a state in 1959 and if you disregard the preseptember 2016 donald j. Trump, the birth of barack obama in 1961. But, im also coming to the conclusion that you had a sort of exporting of the cotton industry back to africa with cotton workers or enslaved laborers being thrown out of work, if you like, or no longer being slaves and then an industry taking root in africa in places like uganda, for example. And thats, im going to be developing that in my Southern Africa book. With regard to Jefferson Davis, the Jefferson Davis papers are receiving, its a multivolume set. You can kind it at any library. If you look at it in the index, youll find references to the bayou and points you raised and i would also make this point, the historian and book on right. If you look at the rice industry in south carolina, that the slave traders often times were not just willy nil y picking up africans, they were looking for africans with skills. If they went to the United States you might want to grab a mathematician. They were grabbing people who were growing rice in west african and bringing them to carolina which it leads to the rice industry flourishing. Thats crnay if she wants to follow up. Host you have seconds to make your point. I have two brief questions. In regards to africanAmerican History, is there any book in particular that puts it all in a nutshell. In regard to police brutality, im originally from milwaukee, wisconsin and ive seen the lives and by the time it gets to the manipulators and distorted. Is there anything possibly, anything that you would suggest that we could possibly do. Host thank you, unfortunately, you have 15 seconds to answer the question. Guest i missed the second part, but i would say that eric mcduffy of the university of illinois and Wesley Alexander of ohio state have been preparing a new textbook on africanAmerican History. I think theyll include and incorporate the newer revelations. Its not out yet and i expect it to be out soon so the caller should look for it. Host if people want to get a hold of you via social media, what is the best place. Guest put it in the Search Engine, it will come up. If you want to hear me talk. The youtube Search Engine and twitter Search Engine and youll get more than you bargained for. Host our guest for the last three years, the university of houston historian and author and we appreciate you object book tv. Guest thank you. Generally enjoy talking to each other on issues which we disagree and i dont even know the extent to which we disagree on the topic. Its good that you do because otherwise this would be pretty boring. The topic tonight is the universal basic income. I published a book on this in 2006 and ive been interested in the concept since the 1980s and ive republished a revised version of it this year for a couple of reasons