company via the 20th company. he was shot in july, 1918. he laid in the field overnight and lived another 75 years. he told the small story about how that had happened to him. in the morning some french colonial stretcher bearers would walk around kicking guys and see if they were still alive. he apparently ground so they picked him up. that story just fascinated me and it took me a while to get the agent majority were acted properly addressed the. as a story written by him. >> he live to 101 if i remember? >> yeah, 101 he died in 1993. >> that's incredible, wow. in val upping the story and the book, you do spend a lot of time not only talking about york's background which i found very interesting being a son of the south reading about the rural part of east tennessee. his -- in a lot of ways, rudimentary upbringing. very little education you also look at the background of the other soldiers involved in the york stroll. i think that is the point of the book. i was curious if there was another particular soldier that was compelling. a soldier story that was compelling to you? >> as it emerged, otis matthew, who was also a corporal, became kind of a pain in york's heels. [laughs] bernard early, who is actually acting sergeant. he led to the early patrols when things started out. personally beautifully, from connecticut, a longtime connecticut family, farming family. those three, as you know, it becomes a matter of what can you find? i did my best to get something on everybody. some of them it was tough because they are italian immigrants. i found that with my first book, when they are immigrants and you don't know where they're writing letters home to, if it's italy or somewhere else. it became mostly these three americans. although bernard early was difficult as well. they ended up in the newspapers. and found things going back prewar on several of them. the 16 other members were really a cross section of any double unit, especially draftees. almost half of them were immigrants from russia, italy, ireland. none of them had much education. york, between all of the schooling he had he had about two years, basically, of education of the three rs. he could write the. i did find some of the letters he wrote to his friend say while he was in france. back in those days life was tough. he went to work early, especially when you came from another country. you have to acclimate, learn the language, like i say it was a cross section of at least 35% american expedition force was emigrant to the united states. >> from the movie i always had the impression that york, well he was portrayed in speaking in a particular, i guess you could say mountain accent. i half expected from the book that you would say that wasn't really true. i think it must have been. then the guy that wrote his autobiography, or his memoir, helped him write it. i got the impression from that that he over did it, perhaps. >> yes gay hill, thomas cahill. i had to put to know at the beginning of the book saying, you know, we use the dialect as written. he handed up. i think i put in the book if you went to tennessee and drove around to talk to people, they would not sound anything like i sounded like in this book. if i was york i would've been a little upset about that. he made him sound like a dumb heck. >> you spent a lot of time, i found this interesting that in the post war years after york became the hero of the first world war and the u.s., at least, his fame, which she never really welcome, did not want, was not good for him. he was not prepared for the financial issues that came along with feign. he didn't really want the attention. would you briefly discuss what happened to york as a result of his fame? >> yeah, well. first i want to say for people who weren't familiar with him he was credited on night -- honored and 32 germans. he was characterized as a one man army. that is where the distinction between him and so many other patrolman. that wasn't true. they were there. six men were killed, immediately. >> he never said anything different? >> he made a point to say, i never said i was alone! what happened was he was the one to surrendered these 132 germans. he did do some great shooting in this ravine that dropped a lot of germans, that caused the surrender. i will give him the credit for that. word got around the army about his feet, what had happened. he was awarded the distinguished service cross first. he was then awarded a medal of honor! this magazine writer, george patella with the saturday evening post was over there writing about different things. he did stories about bella would, the first division. he's a really good writer. >> sort of human interest stories? >> right, here is what the boys are doing kind of thing. he got wind of it. he had taken a trip home to the u.s. briefly he was here when the war ended he was in a truck with somebody and the guy mentioned hey, did you hear about this guy york? he got wind of that he hunted him down and of course the 87 division was very happy to parade this hero they interviewed york say they wrote a story called the second elder gives battle. he was a devout christian. he had conflicts about even serving in the army. he wasn't sure if he could even kill another man. that is another part of the story. it's part of the back story, it's very peeling. he's a second elder, he is part of this fundamental church in northeast tennessee. it is just a great story. like i said there were 13 other men who did feats on october 8th, 1918. they did not come up with nearly the publicity that you got. he was kind of singled out. a story ran from april 26th 1919 in the saturday evening post. which has a 2 million had circulation. he came home in may, and the rest of the man in the 87th. he was a hero by the time he landed in hoboken. i think he must of been prepared a little bit for weather sections going to be. he toured new york, he went to the stock exchange. he went down to d.c. to the congress. it was almost like america was looking for hero. they selected alvin york to be that hero. percy had another favorite soldier, sandwich field, who performed a better or more dramatic feat. combined with the story of how he had not wanted to be in the army, what is this for all about? i don't get it! why do i have to go kill somebody? be combined with the actual act. given all that and then he kills all these germans, that's a good story. you cannot deny that. in later years, the rotary club bottom a farm, or half of one. >> that's an amazing story. >> he has half of the barn, he was teetering on bankruptcy by 1921. which has happened many times in his life, he was bailed out by the donations of others, i mean they ran newspaper campaigns, send $5. send $10. send $1 to help out our hero, alvin york. this has repeated. also, one of the complicated factors was he said his universe was not for sale. it won't make any money. he turned down movie offers and book deals for years. until tom scale approached him with his own war diary. >> with the memoir. >> it didn't sell that well but he made some money for it. i think you got $40,000. typically, he wanted to put towards building schools in the county. helping children become literate. he actually had a transformation in france and traveling from the west to new york, new england, france. he saw the way people lived and he met all sorts of different people. he said you know, we really are a literate where i live. we don't know anything. and so he really wanted to help educate people with a technical institute and a regular school. that was something that he went on tours to speak and to make money that way. then, of course, in 1941 with the movie sergeant york, he got money for that. and then he decided he was only going to pay so many taxes on it. all of a sudden he's in arrears to the irs. about $100,000. and it doesn't really have any money but he finally settled that. i think it $25,000 and said, okay, give us that and will wipe the slate clean. when he died, he was being supported by dupont, a businessman. he had a stipend. he did not make a fortune off of this at all. and you are right he was never comfortable with it. but i think the decision to try to do some good as opposed to his own personal benefit shows who he was. but it he was pretty bad with money. >> you mentioned that he supported a school. he had run-ins with the other folks like the school board folks. he wanted it in one place, they wanted it on the other side of town. he eventually won that. i know that the school was named the alvin sea york school. the highway was named the alvin sea york highway. it went through the county. i was wondering if he -- did he name things after himself? or was that done for him? >> the highway, he didn't name that i don't think. he had a crucial part in getting it built. i don't know if he named it himself. i don't think that he could do that. you can't name a state road after yourself. the school, probably. and putting a name on their is part of publicity. so you've got the notoriety, i might as well use it. >> yeah. in your research, i think you've already mentioned it. you are able to visit the site of the engagement in france. with all of our parks here and as much as we pay attention to the civil war, and the world war ii battlefields in europe, i was interested to know if there is any interpretation there about what took place there. and is york considered a hero in france? >> not really. i had a guide who had been -- they had done archaeological studies of the site. i probably shouldn't even get into this, there is actually two sites. there's a lot of contention about this. in my opinion, i went to the correct sight. the incorrect site is marked by a york trail, a poster board with the photographs of a bunch of the guys on patrol. but in my humble opinion, i think that's actually about half a kilometer north of the actual site. you wouldn't even know it, there is nothing that marks the actual site. >> you are the authority now. >> this guy wrote a book, you probably disagree with me. my site is the one it was archaeologically examined by these people. guys from mississippi, i can't remember his name right now. if you go to france, i've been there like three times. i was amazed. my first trip, i went to where the unit had fought. there is a statue that the first division museum here put up there. otherwise, in france, and in england, america is considered an afterthought. you've got here so late, what did you really do? so there's nothing really to commemorate it. there is a huge battle mural. there's one billboard on highway two that mentions this. but at the same time, on my first trip, i stumbled across bella wood, and that is maintained by the american battle monuments. but that's because it's a famous american battle. >> and you worked with his great granddaughter. >> yeah. >> and some other descendants of some of the other soldiers. how is york remembered in his home county? is he remembered still? >> there is the highway and there is the york institute, which governor york runs. she gave some photos to me. and i think, in eastern tennessee, there is some contention among the descendants of the man who survived that today. like otis -- their ancestors didn't get enough credit for this, and that's true. i think it is true. it was kind of a delicate deal to deal with some of them. >> if you had to ask me before i read this book what i knew about sergeant york, the turkey call in the movie. >> which wasn't true. >> the other thing would be that he was a conscientious objector. and that's not true either. >> yeah he joined this church. he was born again. hate was drinking, and finally he came to jesus. and he came under the wing of the sky rosier pike. he was the head of this church, but local guy. and it was rosier pike kudrow to washington, crying to get york the conscientious objector status. york says he was never trying to do that himself he said, over and over, i just want someone to explain to me what this war is about! he was not interested in killing anybody. you know, this church that he belonged to, his faith interprets the bible literally. what is the first commandment? thou shall not kill. he took that literally. he basically had to be convinced, and convince himself, that it was okay to carry a weapon. like i said that added a lot of luster to the back story of his german killer, you know? >> oh sure. as i said and i have not read much on world war i but i am beginning to. i find it fascinating. it is, in many cases, a forgotten war. it has been much overshadowed by historians of the civil war, world war ii. i think i know why, but would you speak to why you think the first world war has been a casualty among historians? >> i will say it's forgotten here, maybe, if you go to france it's not forgotten. every little village has a list of the men it gave to the war. it is very much alive there. it's been overshadowed here, number one, because we were only over there for six months. from spring of 1918. it was over i think when the war was over, people just wanted to sweep it under the rug. i remember reading this in collier's magazine in early 1919. we're not gonna write any more stories about the war, that's it! it's done. it kind of got neglected, that might be one of the main reasons. there were no battles fought here! you know? no physical evidence. it got overshadowed by world war ii. also, there was no real ending to world war i. it wasn't conclusive. germany signed an armistice but all that did was inflamed the passions, brought hitler about. it was like round one of ward war to. it is over fish -- for that reason to you. and also just the sheer numbers of the atrocities of the holocaust. you think of world war i you think of trenches, muddy battlefield, man charging at machine guns. very little air war, there is some but -- world war ii, it was a world war! something that the german set across the flame. i think it's pretty natural. like i said, i was told no one wants to read books about world war i! that was the attitude. i think it's getting better. there is a lot of interests around men like me who is grandfathers or uncles fought in it. i get queries all the time to help them find out where this time was or wasn't. >> do you have any more first world war related books in your pipeline at this book? >> i have a proposal out. i'm waiting to hear, let's put it that way. it would be a world war i book. i really am eager to see how that pans out. >> i want you to know that i purchased your polar bear -- >> a, that's a good books! [laughs] >> i am looking forward to reading that. >> that is an interesting story. thanks. this is a speculative question, i know we all hate those but i'm going to ask you anyway. you mentioned otis matthew and some of the others who, i don't know if they cast doubt necessarily on york's role, well, matthew did but, at the least they wanted recognition for what they did. they wanted to be recognized, it is human nature. a do you think that they deserve it. here is the speculative question. do you think they would be pleased with what you have done? did you give them the do that they deserve, they thought they deserved, at least? >> at the and of the book i know half after years of trying, otis matthew, finally got lyndon johnson to give him a silver star for what he did that day. at the ceremony when he was getting the star, you can see how he was talking about draft orders, flag burners, things like that. he said, we didn't have that in my war, we had one guy alvin york, he was a hero. i think they wanted recognition. otis, he would brought a big affidavit. he basically never even mention york. it was as if york wasn't even there. i think he was up being a little untruthful about that. i don't think they got the credit they deserved. including the ones that died at the scene. let me say one last thing if i have time, the import of white york did goes way past those men that they collected. they took the right of the german line in that area. that allowed companies ian g of the 220 intra tree to advance west to the discount railway line, which was supplying that whole portion of the german army in that area. that opened on october 8th, october 9th the german started withdrawing from the forest. a month later the month is over. people miss the import of the actions of the york patrol. >> that is a great point. that is something i failed to mention. i certainly didn't know how it fit into the bigger story. as i read more and more about the first world war, i hope to be able to put all that together. it is such a big war with such big numbers, it is hard to make those connections. >> yeah, writing these books i have to learn it all and then regurgitate it. it can be kind of confusing sometimes. >> yeah, definitely. again, if we have time gary cooper was, of course, a big movie star. i found really interesting, interesting sidelined story about his relationship with alvin york. would you talk about that? i thought that was really interesting. >> you know, gary cooper was from montana. he grew up kind of like alvin york. he was an outdoorsman, he enjoyed guns. when they got together in california, -- they hit it off right away. they were both very quiet to. it took a little bit of prodding to get them to talk. once they did they really hit it off. well gary cooper won an academy award for best actor for that movie. he at the time was like the screen icon! male screen icon. the movie did really well. they did find a quick rapport, that movie came an opportune moment released right before pearl harbor i believe a few months. yeah that was part of, it the newspapers are saying we need to make this movie. we need to reignite patriotism. there is a lot of people in the 1940s who said, we're gonna get into the sport. there is no way we're gonna stay out. i think i quote in the book when a young man we go see this blue movie, sergeant york, they would leave the theater and go and last in the army. i so had quite an effect. who doesn't want to be a hero, you know? and what was york's -- i think you discussed this at some point in the book. but what was york's view of what was going on? he almost enlisted again, didn't he? >> he wanted to enlist during the bhutan fight. he wanted to go over there and bring a bunch of his buddies and start picking off japanese showed soldiers. he was probably 50 or something. he was too old for that, obviously. but unlike his questions in world war i about, i don't think i want to be part of this, he was all about the effort in world war ii. he understood the threat. he got into a spat with charles lindbergh. they got into a big public spat, sniping -- because lindbergh wanted to stay out of it and york was all for it. that was another interesting side. and they were both of about equal fame at the time. >> he died in relative poverty. where is he buried? how is it marked? >> he's buried near his home in the local cemetery there. and i haven't been there, but i think it's well documented. at his funeral, i think it was the 82nd division presided. the 82nd made a big deal about his passing when he died in 1964. >> good. well, any other things you'd like to say about your book, just in general? anything you'd like to share with the folks online? >> i think if you don't know who alvin york is, you might find it of interest. if you don't know about him today, and one time he was the number one celebrity. not just in the u.s. but in the world. he was a huge celebrity. i asked my guy in france, i said hey, is there any french equivalent to york? he says no. he can't even really think of a british equivalent. somebody who was made a fuss over like this. i'm sure there were plenty of people who performed feats as significant, but york capture the imagination all over the world. his celebrity was maintained. it started to fade in later years, but people knew who he was. >> i can't really think of another equivalent in american history. >> no. even audi murphy, he's the world war ii hero. but adi murphy, it's not as compelling. you don't have that back story. yeah, they tried to make pat tillipman a hero. and he was a hero, but they tried to build him up and then found out he was killed in friendly fire. and then jessica in iraq, the first woman soldier to be captured. they said she had gone down blazing. that turned out not to be true. we like our heroes. >> i heard murmuring on there from law maria. >> sorry about that. we're having a little bit of internet issues. but thank you so much for coming, and we have signed copies of the york patrol available at stores. stop in a grab a coffee. thanks for joining us, it was great. thanks again. >> thank you. >> so this is george coming from you hello everybody and welcome back to a house divided. we are coming to you from abraham lincoln bookshop in chicago, and i have our guest with us right here. it is doctor karen cox. the author of no common ground, confederate monuments and the ongoing fight for racial justice. doctor cox, welcome to the show. >> it's great to be with you. i wish it was in person,
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