Transcripts For MSNBCW All In With Chris Hayes 20160419

We take you to the city of buffalo about 300 miles north west of here where donald trump is in the middle of his final rally before tomorrows big primary. Trump was introduced by the coach of the hometown buffalo bills, rex ryan. The bill said ryan was there in a personal capacity and his presence did not constitute endorsement from the team. Theres so much that i admire about mr. Trump. But one thing i really admire about him is, you know what . Hell say whats on his mind. And so many times youll see people, a lot of people want to say the same thing. But theres a big difference. They dont have the courage to say it. Trump is hoping for a clean sweep of new yorks 95 delegates. He can definitely use them. Trump was massacred in delegate fights once more over the weekend in what is becoming something of a recurring theme. Ted cruz won all 14 republican delegates up for grabs in that state. Cruz supporters reportedly elected to 50 of the 90plus delegate slots up for grabs at statewide conventions and caucuses around the country. There are actually two things going on here. Both of which are good news for cruz. In wyoming cruz straightup swept the available delegates who will be bound to him on the first ballot at the convention. Its as if he won the state outright in a primary. In a bunch of other states, cruz supporters were elected to serve as delegates at the convention to be the actual people in the hall casting votes for the nominee. In 2012 it didnt much matter who the delegates personally supported since the republican nominee was named on that first ballot. This year their loyalties are important. In many states delegates are bound to a candidate on the first ballot but after that, according to existing rules, they can support whoever them. Thats how it works in the the state of georgia which trump won big by 14 points. Yet this weekend trump may have lost most of the delegates that were supposed to come with that march victory. As cruz loyalists were elected to dozens of delegate slots. At a contested convention, after the first ballot, those delegates can simply throw their support over to cruz. All this is not playing well with trump supporters. In georgias seventh district a group grew so infew yated they walked out of the convention and took the American Flag with them. Sir oh, come on. The flag . Trump has spent the past few days railing against the nomination system and yesterday he again warned that denying him the nomination could lead his supporters to revolt. I hope it doesnt involve violence. And i dont think it will. But i will say this. Its a rigged system. Its a crooked system. Its 100 crooked. A lot of republicans do take issue with the process. A new national nbc news wall street journal poll finds 62 of Republican Voters say the republican with the most votes should be the nominee. Even if he has not won a majority of delegates before the convention. Yesterday Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus pushed back at trump again dismissing his charge in part by noting trump has failed to win a majority of delegates. Having a plurality of the delegates means that the field has the majority. So you have to have the majority. Its the United States of america. Thats what were founded on. Senate majority leader mitch mcconnell, who is officially neutral in the gop race, didnt sound that way in an interview over the weekend. About 60 of the delegates who are bound on the first ballot will be free to do whatever they want to on the second ballot. And im increasingly optimistic that there actually may be a second ballot. Senior Political Writer at buzzfeed news, and new york times, if youre a trump supporter, or trumpcurious, lets say, and you basically think the Republican Party is corrupt and feckless and nefarious, that mcconnell quote seems like giving away the game on the eve of the primary. The trumpcurious crowd, they have legitimate grievances. Two things can be true here. One is that the Trump Campaign has bungled the delegate game in this last few weeks. The other is that frankly a lot of these states choose the nominee in a very bizarre and bad way. Like it should be more democratic. In fact, trump weirdly has the better of the democratic argument when he rails against wyoming, colorado, for not Holding Anything that voters as voters can participate in. You would think that the thing about trumps message, it has a fundamental logic. People want to be able to vote and the person who gets the most votes did should be the one who gets the delegate. That makes sense to people. I think thats why you see him continually bringing it up. Although of course he always takes the extra trumpian step saying, there might be violence, who knows, im not condoping it but there might be. Im not saying someone should get smashed in the face, im just saying that might happen. Hes at one level saying, no violence, i dont condone violence, theres whats strange to me. Here we are on the eve of voting day tomorrow. And what youve got is this bizarre sort of twotrack thing happening. Yes, okay, theyre going to vote tomorrow, whoop de do. But increasingly this situation in which like, were all going to be wondering what the margin is and then who knows who the people are who get sent to the convention. Youve got to weird thing, from a democratic perspective, you also have kind of drummed the force out of the people that are actually registering their opinion. Even worse, if kasich or ted cruz are micro targeting carefully and can find a few voters in each of these districts in this crazy system, it could easily defeat trump in some of these places because of delegates. Its a strange system and the spectacle now of a race where on the one hand hes like, winning, winning, winning. On the other hand hes like, losing, losing, losing. At the same time, in the same election. Thats right. Not only that, again geography has equal momentum so far, more or less. I think wisconsin, there was genuinely something that happened there. But it was enabled by the demography of the state and the char peculiarities of that. Tomorrow hes going to win big, i dont think anyone questions that, but you never know. Then the northeast which is absolutely his stomping ground. Next week rhode island, connecticut, new jersey, that hes almost certainly going to sweep, or come close to sweeping. Not new jersey. Not new jersey. But hes probably going to do very well. And the problem is that the campaign for a long time has been built on these momentum narratives. And trump for a long time enjoyed momentum from winning big. Those are gone now. Were going to see votes there but its funny, even inside our newsroom, i have a calendar of when the state conventions are. Thats where a lot of the these things are actually going to be decided. Which delegates get elected . What do you make of this sort of power play that seems to be happening in the campaign where corey lin do you ski, seems to me, has been sidelined. Whenever anonymous blind quotes end up in any situation, taking it to someone, that is someone thats a speech act. Right. Thats not a reflection of reality. No. That is an attempt to shape reality. The knives are out. Look, this was, if you believe certain accounts, i think this is basically true, one of the very first fights they had inside the Trump Campaign at the very beginning was, do we actually build a northern traditional president ial Campaign Organization . Where we have people in all these different states laying the groundwork, which theoretically could have helped them with this delegate fight, or do we just run on earn media and let trump be trump . Lewandowski was a big advocate of let trump be trump camp which worked about until recently. Theres another problem there too, nick, in your wheelhouse, which is he is quoteunquote selffunding, although not actually, lending himself money, billing things to trump enterprises. People are donating, theyre buying make America Great hats again. The question is if he were to be the nominee hes either going to spend a lot of money or actually have to build up all those resources that have been neglected. Hes famously cheap. This is not a guy who wants to spend his fortune running for. Hes masterfully avoided doing that to be clear. Its one thing running primaries to topple a bunch of candidates who are out of sync with the party in different ways. To win a general election in 18 or 20 states requires money and organization. He has to build that. I think this power struggle in the campaign is a good tell that hes decided he wants to actually win. I agree. This fear he might back away, walk away this is a guy who wants to win, i think. You think hes been brought over to the matter ford folks who are saying, no, we have to do it the right way, because youre going to get the nomination, then youre going to try to win. If you want theres been this theory thats not implausible, bestcase scenario is for him to have the nomination stolen from him gary wrote that piece. I talked to somebody who spent time probing the psyche of trump. That actually scans as possibly true. I think that this news, 20 million budget he supposedly has authorized for the next two months, that suggests to me hes actually trying to win. Say he wins big, does very well in the northeast, comes down the stretch in the ballpark of 1237, falls just short. Were he to be the nominee, you know the republican donor class fairly well, could you imagine them opening checkbooks and getting fully behind him . Absolutely, but depends on his negative rating at that moment in time. If hes going to tank the entire look, these people are party stalwarts. But theyre not like idea i dont ideologues. They want to win, the want the institution to win. I think theres a movement and a point there you can make to kind of build the whole party, raise money for the whole party, get the rnc back funded again so it can do its job in the general. But if its going to be a disaster for the whole party, i think they run away. That will be interesting. Thanks to you both. What exactly is at stake in tomorrow nights primary . A race that usually isnt important at this stage in the election. Well take a look at the last time new york got this much attention, nearly 30 years ago. First, Bernie Sanders comes one step closer to outright calling Hillary Clinton corrupt. Members of both campaigns are joining me to talk about what has become the central argument of the campaign. Just after the break, thats only two minutes away, so do not go anywhere. We needed 30 new hires for our call center. Im spending too much time hiring and not enough time in my kitchen. announcer need to hire fast . Go to ziprecruiter. Com and post your job to over 100 of the webs leading job boards with a single click. Then simply select the best candidates from one easy to review list. You put up one post and the next day you have all these candidates. Makes my job a lot easier. announcer over 400,000 businesses have already used ziprecruiter. And now you can use ziprecruiter for free. Go to ziprecruiter. Com offer6 welcome back. We are here in brooklyn on the banks of the east river a short ways up the river Bernie Sanders is speaking right now. With just 24 hours until the polls close tomorrow in new york the fight between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders is focusing largely on questions of systemic corruption and personal integrity. The Sanders Campaign increasingly edging towards outright saying that clinton is corrupt. Last week a sander ad which the Clinton Campaign called a false attack hit the secretary for taking hundreds of thousands of dollars in speaking fees while not championing a 15 minimum wage at the federal level. This weekend sanders supporters showered clintons motorcade with dollar bills, angering many clinton supporters. Meanwhile, donald trump is test driving a new nickname for Hillary Clinton, crooked hillary. Earlier today sanders was pressed if he and the republican frontrunner are essentially making the same argument. Donald trump is very brilliant coming up with statement, its an ugly statement. What i have said regarding secretary clinton is we have a corrupt Campaign Finance system in which billionaires youve gone further. You have said that she accepts this money from wall street, from big banks, from fossil fuels, and that affects her judgment. Well, of course it does. Why do you think would that be crooked . In that case the entire United States government is crooked. We have a corrupt system. Im very proud that we are doing it differently. Sanders wont explicitly call clinton crooked, he argues the whole system is corrupt and if Hillary Clinton is part of that system, the logic sus seem difficult to avoid. Now the Sanders Campaign is accusing the Clinton Campaign of breaking Campaign Finance rules arguing in a letter to dnc chairman Wasserman Schultz saying that serious apparent skrilss of Campaign Finance laws have taken place between the dnc and Clinton Campaign. The clnl campaign responded saying Sanders Campaign false attacks have gone out of hand, hes resorting to baseless accusations of illegal actions. Joining me to talk about, Senior Adviser to the Bernie Sanders campaign, let me ask you this question. Is the Democratic Party corrupt . No. The Democratic Party is not corrupt. Okay . I mean, listen, chris. We have a corrupt system of Campaign Finance in america. Citizens united opened the flood gates to a waterfall of bad, dirty money into our system even before that, right . Bernie sanders has rejected it and is running outside it. Are there other members of the Democratic Party you can point to from the sanders perspective who you think are free of that, who are not absorbed in the vortex of the muck of that system . Were running against Hillary Clinton, thats the only candidate were running against, and thats who were addressing in the context of a corrupt system of Campaign Finance. She and her campaign made a decision to run within the system, to have numerous super pacs. Theyve got a dark money super pac. 25 million, we dont know where a dime comes from, thats what were talking about. Play that out. Spell out what the fear is in terms of how that operates. The fear is that the special interests over my shoulder on wall street, for example, are going to be able to exert influence on the policy of the next president. Thats why the next president wont be able to break up the big banks, which we need done. Wont be able to take on the fossil fuel industry which we need done. Those are the issues that need to be addressed. The pharmaceutical industry, wont be able to take it on because they are beholden to those interests because they fund their campaigns. Theres also thissue of the fact that Hillary Clinton is part of a whole class of people. Youre saying the whole systems corrupt im saying its a corrupt system. Youre saying its a corrupt system. Then all those democratic members of congress, senators, Bernie Sanders friends and colleagues, who are also enmeshed in that corrupt system. Its a governors, downstate ballots, all are implicated in that same way. The system is out of control. Its corrupt. But you guys are saying something else, seems to me, more than that, that she is particularly enmeshed in this system, that shes particularly bad i think thats a fact. Listen, the numerous super pacs theyre running, the incredible amounts of money. Tens of millions. A 501 c 4 which has money in it which we dont know where the money comes from. Thats particularly example greek greenlg just on the part of the Clinton Campaign. We found out this joint fundraising agreement with the Democratic Party is nothing but a mechanism to football millions back into their campaign. Its outrageous. The joint fundraising is a perfect example. If you go back and look at Barack Obamas filings from that year, victory fund, they had smalldollar donors, the exact same thing 2008. The same thing youve identified essentially as this sort of red flag. This is something Hillary Clintons Campaign Says all the time. All the things you say make us corrupt that we cant get changes are things that barack obama i love the way you use the president as a human hed its also true, right . 2010 the Supreme Court of the United States passed Citizens United and changed the world in Campaign Finance, opened the flood gates. 2008 was before that. I believe if president obama was running right now hed reject this system of Campaign Finance and run outside and it do as Bernie Sanders is doing. I dont think its an accident weve raised more money than the Clinton Campaign in each of the last three months. This is the future of the Democratic Party. Heres what the clinton supporters say. Pictures of people throwing money at the clinton motorcade. And youve also got a campaign that is now making the argument that lines up uncomfortably for many democrats, not just clinton supporters, with 30 years of attacking Hillary Clinton is essentially this lady macbeth figure, this feckless and untrustable human being, and you guys are building on a narrative that people are trying to destroy progressives in the Democratic Party have built over 30 years. I reject that. Supporters throwing money, thats not something our campaign orchestrated. What do you think of that . I think theyre protesting and im not condoning anyone. By the way, bernie has spoken out. Ive seen people say, oh, the protesters. Bernie sanders says, people should be allowed to speak, give their speeches. Were not interested in interfering with the political process. What we are interested in is changing the political process. Changing a corrupt system of Campaign Finance and ending it. Not rhetorically the way they do by talking about it. By doing something about it. You made Hillary Clinton, clinton people say, youve made her essentially the face of that. The truth is either the Democratic Party is going to embrace a corrupt system or reject it. Two choices. Hillary clinton, embrace it. Bernie sanders, reject it. Thats the choice. Its become a voting issue. I think this is motivating voters more than any other issue today. Thank you for joining me. As the Sanders Campaign has chosen to focus increasingly on clintons ties with wall street, the former secretary of state has once again found heard in the position of defending her decision not to release the transcripts from her speeches to banks. What is the concern that releasing those speeches would show you praising wall street . No, i dont have any concerns like that. Im just concerned about it constantly changing set of standards for everybody else but me. We have certain expectations when you run for president. One of which is release all of your tax returnser since youve been in public life. Thats what ive done. And 33 years of them are in the public domain. Eight years are on my website. Now all of a sudden theres a new standard. And ive said when it applies to everybody, you bet, i will meet that standard as well. Moments ago speaking to a raucous crowd in new york city, sanders responded. I am prepared tonight to announce, i will release all of the transcripts of all of the speeches that i have given behind closed doors to wall street. Are you ready if here they are none. Joining me, Hillary Clintons campaign manager, works a short walk from here. Good to have you. Great to be here. Do you want to respond to this idea of the choice between the system thats corrupt and the clean miss of Bernie Sanders and his smaller dollar donor fundraising machine . I dont think theres been much thats been clean about his campaign the last few weeks. His Campaign Said for months, todd devine, Bernie Sanders, jeff weaver, that new york was a mustwin for them. They got here, they took a harshly negative turn. Its not looking so good for them now. And look, their campaign faces a choice. They can either continue down this path of these personal negative attacks, or they can get back to the campaign they pledged which is to focus on issues. Why arent we talking about health care anymore . Why arent we talking about education, affording college . They would say its the uber issue is that their theory of the case is that it is hard to do all these things, provide free college tuition, do what you need to do in terms of regulating fossil fuel companies, because of the corrupt Campaign Finance system and they say Hillary Clinton is pennsylvania a part of that, thats their argument. Theres one candidate who said on day one she wanted to overturn Citizens United, that was Hillary Clinton. The Citizens United case was a video made by the Citizens United group against Hillary Clinton. No one is more passionate about overturning and changing this Campaign Finance system and no one has fought harder against special interests. This is the same person who took on the Health Insurance companies in the 90s and kept fighting until she got Health Insurance for 8 million kids. Her record on this is clear. Theyve never been able to say, where are these forces who corrupted her . Never. This is an interesting point of sort of tension here. A moment in the debate, whats the quid pro quo . Bernie sanders couldnt come up with an example. It seems your campaign is in a strange position of having to argue something that almost proves too much. Yes, the system should be changed, we think big money has a disporting effect. In our particular case, it doesnt. Can you sell that argument . No, no, no. Thats what you have to say, right . The question is a candidates judgment and their record. Hillary clinton every time has taken on the special interests. Every time. Youre saying the money has we have small dollar donors too. Youre saying, fundamentally, is look, we are not our priorities and what were going to do, what Hillary Clinton would do as president , are not dependant upon and are not twisted or manipulated by whatever the donation you know what theyre dependant on, Hillary Clinton has gotten 2. 4 million more votes than Bernie Sanders, lieding in the pledge delegates by more than barack obama was in 2008. Look at who is propelling this campaign. It is the people. It is the popular vote. She is winning. And the sanders camp is getting desperate. And they are choosing a path of negative attacks. And they need to make a choice. As that path for him narrows to the nomination, because the math is almost insurmountable to him. As that gets narrower, is he going to continue these personal attacks and aid and abet donald trump and ted cruz and the rest of the republicans . Are you saying theyre aiding and abetting now . I am saying what they are doing is working off the same talking points as the Republican Party and it is damaging. It is damaging the democrats ability to win the white house. Why is it damaging . What are you guys three blocks from here when you look at the favorability unfavorability numbers, Hillary Clinton unfavorable at 16 , do you think Bernie Sanders is doing that . I think what democrats should be talking about in this race is how we help every american get health care, how we help every family afford college. All of a sudden were talking about these false negative attacks. The attacks that sanders made today about hillary are false. And these you talked about throwing money at her car the dnc stuff . The dnc stuff, throwing money at her car, the insulting remarks that were made at his rally where she was called a where pratt whore. This is not who we are as a party. We should be focusing on issues. Sanders has a choice. Tad devine said he was never going to be a spoiler, Bernie Sanders would never be a spoiler, and i hope thats you think hes a spoiler now . I think its spoiling this election to be talking anything but the issues. That is the campaign Bernie Sanders promised. Thats the campaign we were running. It has taken a harshly negative turn and the sanders folk vats choice to make. Something has happened in new york for the First Time Since 1988. Ill tell you what it is ahead. Donald Trumps Campaign just made history in the nbc news wall street journal poll released today, just 24 of voters nationally said they view trump positively. 65 have a negative view of him. That gives the republican front run area net favorability of negative 41 points, the lowest ever recorded to for a major president ial candidate in the history of this poll. While trumps unfavorable members are exceptional, the numbers are grim for all leading candidates. Nearly 7 in 10 voters said she couldnt see themselves voting for trump. Ted cruz, 61 saying they couldnt envision supporting him. 58 saying the same of Hillary Clinton. By contrast, Bernie Sanders and john kasich each registered under 50 . The primary is taking its toll on the frontrunners. Now sometimes primary battles are quickly erased in shows of unity and partisan polarization that come in the general. Sometimes the wounds of the primary persist and end up gravely injuring the eventual nominee. An example of that right here in new york when we come back. Its rare for a state like new york to get this kind of attention from president ial hopefuls, considering its place on the primary calendar. Here we are on the eve of new yorks primary with candidates on both sides engaged in a battle for votes and delegates. Its been nearly 30 years since so much focus was put on the empire state. You might notice familiar themes. Michael due caucus, jesse jackson, al gore, each vying for a part of the democratic voting coalition. The year was 1988. After eight years of republican rule in the white house, the democrats were trying to win it back. It was a crowded field of contenders with no clear frontrunner coming out of super tuesday. We saw a tossup among the democrats. We want to show you whats going on there now. Py midapril, three candidates left. The size and the timing of the New York Primary could determine who the democratic canceled date will be. All the campaigns agree dukakis is leading here, although not generating much excitement. Gore isnt generating much support. Jackson is pulling in big, enthusiastic crowds. Jackson was drawing crowds in parts of new york city that often felt ignored by the political class. Watching the candidate, even after a debate, is like watching a rock star after a concert. No other Campaign Looks like jacksons or sounds like it. The south bronx and other economically devastated sections of the city are targets for jacksons campaign of hope and pride. I was born to a teenaged mother. I understand. I was born in the slum. But the slum is not upon in me and its not born in you. And you can rise above it. And i challenge you to rise above it. But if jackson was adored by some new yorkers, he was polarizing to others. Jesse jackson tackled his toughest issue in the new york president ial primary, one the headlines have reduced to jackson and the jews. Four years ago jackson had to apologize for calling new york city hymie town. Mayor koch said jews would be crazy to vote for jackson. Reporter when the jewish mayor of new york threw support behind al gore, political battle lines were drawn. Supporters of israel, jews and christians alike, will know that as president , al gore will be like a rook. Reporter it was not enough to shake up the race. Mayor koch is asked about crack and crime and cops, not about the middle east. How much will the mayors endorsement of al gore mean . Very little. It gives senator gore ed kochs vote. Reporter dominating discussion in new york and cities across america was drugs and crime. There is deep fear about drugs among new york families. The spread of crack, gang violence, drugs on the schoolyards. Reporter it was in that broader context of crime that al gore found a new line of attack on michael dukakis. Gore accused dukakis of being soft on crime because as governor dukakis let firstdegree murderers out of prison on weekend passions. Two of them committed other murders while they were on their passes. If you were elected president , would you advocate a Similar Program for federal penitentiaries . Al, the difference between you and me is i have to run a criminal justice system, you never have. Reporter it was not enough to damage dukakis then, he won the New York Primary and went on to become the democratic nominee. But gores attack line found its way into the general election. And was used against dukakis months later. Dukakis not only opposes the death penalty, he allowed firstdegree murderers to have weekend passes from prison. One was Willie Horton, weekend prison passes, due caulk kills on crime. That infamous Willie Horton ad put out by an independent Group Supporting george h. W. Bush played a major part in dukakis loss in 1988. 2016 new york is its own kind of rough. More on that live from brooklyn, dont go anywhere. Enter. Im spending too much time hiring and not enough time in my kitchen. announcer need to hire fast . Go to ziprecruiter. Com and post your job to over 100 of the webs leading job boards with a single click. Then simply select the best candidates from one easy to review list. You put up one post and the next day you have all these candidates. Makes my job a lot easier. announcer over 400,000 businesses have already used ziprecruiter. And now you can use ziprecruiter for free. Go to ziprecruiter. Com offer6 today Actor Johnny Depp and his wife actress amber hurd were freed from cap did it. Not literally rmgs well explain. Decked to an incident last year when dep and hurd got into a pickle with the Australian Government over their yorkshire terriers while dep was filming pirates of the caribbean down under. John christopher dep, aka jack sparrow, and hes decided to bring into our nation two dogs without actually getting the proper certification. Basically it looks like he snuck them in. If we start letting movie stars, even though theyve been the sexiest man alive twice, to come into the nation, why dont we break the laws for everybody. Its time that pistol and boo buggered off back to the United States. Hes loved his moment in the spotlight. The agriculture minister announced the dogs had better leave the country or they would be euthanized. It caused international sensation. The media mocking it as australias war on terriers. You sound like an absolute clown telling the guy to bugger off back to hollywood or well kill his dogs. You sound like an idiot. Youre a government minister, not some idiot off the street mouthing off to a news camera. Have some decency. But then it looked like the crisis was over when the offending animals were flown out of the country. His two terriers back home after flying them apparently into australia illegally. That countrys government threatened to have the pooches put down fearing they carried disease. But it was not over. And the agricultural minister got the last laugh. Ill tell you why in 60 seconds. We thought wed heard the storys happy ending. Generalny dep and amber hurd flew their noncompliant yorkshire terriers pistol and boo out of australia under threat of euthanasia for the dogs. Today depp and hurd went to court, pleading guilty for providing a false immigration document for basically smuggling in the dogs. Prosecutors dropped more serious charges that carried a sentence up to ten years. Hurd received a onemonth Good Behavior which means if she breaks a law in australia over the next month shell have to pay a fine of 767 american. Thats not all. An apology individual woe was made and presented in court and posted by agricultural minister Barnaby Joyce on his facebook page. Australias a wonderful island. With a treasure trove of unique plants, animals, and people. It has to be protected. Australia is free of many pests and diseases that are commonplace around the world. That is why australia has to have such strong bio security laws. And australians are just as unique. Both warm and direct. When you disrespect australian law, they will tell you firmly. I am truly sorry that pistol and boo were not declared. Protecting australia is important. Declare everything when you enter australia. Thanks. In about nine hours, voters here in new york will begin heading to the polls to cast their vote for president , Hillary Clinton and donald trump hold significant leads. Even if on the republican side a trump win is all but foreordained there is still plenty of suspense because there are 95 republican delegates up for grabs. 14 delegates based on the statewide results and another 81 delegates that will be given out by congressional district. If trump wants to clinch the nomination before the gop convention, he may need to win every single one of them. New yorks delegatal kay case rules make that a fairly tall order because to sweep the delegates trump will need more than 50 of the statewide vote then also need to clear 50 in each congressional district. Anything less hell have to share some of those delegates with either ted cruz or john kasich. It may be tougher for trump to reach that magic number of 1237 delegates at the convention. Rnc chief strategist john spicer told Andrea Mitchell this isnt a game of how close you can get to the target. A majority of delegates will decide the nominee, the rules, plat platform. Its not horseshoes. You dont have to have to get close, you have to get 1237 to become the nominee. The Clinton Campaign seems to be hoping a win will not only clip the recent string of Bernie Sanders victories wyoming marked his eighth in the past nine contests but also kick off a new phase of the campaign, the geography of which seems to favor her. With primaries next week in pennsylvania, connecticut, delaware, maryland, and rhode island. Joining me, rebecca traster, author of all the single ladies. John nichols, National Affairs correspondent for the nation. Great to have you here. I want to go back to the thing we were arguing about earlier in the show. The money being thrown at the motorcade. If we can just show that real quick. The sanders protesters, they throw money at this motorcade of secretary of state clinton as it sort of goes to a fundraiser. A lot of very strong reactions to that. Some people thought it was offensive, some people said, look, this is obviously about money in politic and the fact that shes on her way to a campaign, joy reid my colleague said she thought it reminded her of the way people treat strippers. Youre biting your tongue. No, im not, im just trying there are some things that are complex and nuanced about this. You can have a legitimate economic critique. I think theres been a legitimate economic critique made the way that money and politics is working, the way money and the president ial campaign is working. Bernie sanders and his campaign and his supporters are making a very legitimate critique. And but sometimes the expressions of what is a legitimate increase technique can merge with other kinds of expressions. And i think that the symbolism of throwing dollar bills at a woman has resonance outside or alongside with the economic critique. And yeah, throwing dollar bills at a woman means something even if it simultaneously means something real, it also means something misogynist. Both things can be simultaneously true. I think whats interesting is that of course we need to get the money out of politics. I dont think theres anyone who doesnt fully understand that. Particularly on the democratic side. But let me say this, Bernie Sanders is raising money too. Its not as if Hillary Clinton is the only person in the race raising money. And while he has a lot of individual donors, a lot of his donors are bigmoney people, particularly from the Tech Industry contributing to his campaign. Theyre not doing that out of the kindness of their heart. The bottom line is the process needs to be changed but it needs to be changed for everyone. I want to get to you, but i would say this. I think the sanders people will point out theyre not using big money super pacs and they are sort of setting all sorts of records for the average donation. Largely smalldollar donors. There are some people who have macsed out. The deeper thing is if think about the role this is playing. Democracy spring has been happening in washington, d. C. , 1,400 people arrested. It seems to me theres two kinds of democratic primary voters. Theres voters for whom this is front of mind. Like the whole things corrupt and until you fix that you get nothing else downstream and those are the folks that are on the capitol protesting. There are folks whose intellectual analysis i find fairly compelling. Then folks on the other side who say, yes, thats a problem, and theres all these other problems, and were not going to effects it tomorrow so you do what you can within the system. You know what i was struck by, George Clooney, the guy who held the fundraiser. And who said, look, im uncomfortable with all this money in politics. Right and hosting this fund raiser. And im not talking about George Clooney here but i genuinely think he hit the mark there, that within this Democratic Party there is a pretty unified critique of big money. Yes. The overwhelming majority of Democratic Senators voted for a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United. So its real, its a question of how aggressively you go at it. Now the bottom line on this is i sympathize with a lot of what rebecca and tara said. And i think that were getting it now into this moment where probably these folks are going to have to Start Talking to each other a little bit. As they Start Talking to each other a little bit, it will be necessary to up that respect level. Im serious. And again, i think that what clooney said, the way he responded to it, instead of being very defensive, hes saying, look, i did this because i do believe in much of whats been said. We need to raise money, but i also think theres something very wrong with this. I think theres something in there, not putting him up for keynote speaker. One of the things i want to talk about that is part of this primary, this question of unfavorability, electability. The new numbers are painting a fascinating picture of where things stand. I want to talk about that after a quick break. We needed 30 new hires for our call center. Im spending too much time hiring and not enough time in my kitchen. announcer need to hire fast . Go to ziprecruiter. Com and post your job to over 100 of the webs leading job boards with a single click. Then simply select the best candidates from one easy to review list. You put up one post and the next day you have all these candidates. Makes my job a lot easier. announcer over 400,000 businesses have already used ziprecruiter. And now you can use ziprecruiter for free. Go to ziprecruiter. Com offer6 rebecca, tara, john, thats a beautiful shot. We have a nice hd screen behind us here. Dont believe it for a second, thats actually our shot behind us. So we got the new nbc wall street journal polling. I find the unfavorable fascinating. I cant tell i guess i cant tell how much is this a unique moment in politics or how much it is that the campaigns gone on so long and its been so sustained, the attention. But those are thats wrong, that should be flipped around. Hillary clinton is minus 24, donald trump is minus 41. What . Yeah, thats correct. But youve got a situation in which, you know, you have first trump. Even when you go trump to cruz, these people are so far under water, if you were brought in to consult any of these people youd say, dont run for president. Right, you would. In fact, theyre winning. But first of all, i think it speaks to how sort of electrified. Theres so much passion. So much of it is anger and hate. I think were seeing it on both sides of the aisle. But its especially true on the republican side. Theres so much anger. And so to me its kind of it makes sense that there would also be such high negatives for a lot of the candidates. People are angry at each other. Hillary has 20plus years of earning those negatives. Take me through a guided tour of her favorables. Youve made this point before. The further she gets from power or attempting to achieve power the further she gets from forward motion, the more popular she is. When shes in a job, people tend to love her. First lady, secretary of state. Right, senator. She was expected to be unpopular, instead she had huge favorable ratings. As soon as she starts a competitive move forward. The question is, is it that shes trying for something new, that see has challengers to back, is it that shes challenging men . Who knows. At that point when she enters a contest and starts to be in motion, her negatives soar and her popularity declines. A couple of dynamic issues for a secretary of state, where the republicans try to use her as a foil against president obama, they attacked president obama and then they tried to elevate her as a way to i remember there was this period, also this period of tremendous bad faith. You see a little bit right now with Bernie Sanders. A period of tremendous bad faith around this point in 2008, when clinton was losing to obama. Republicans thought obama was going to win and they wanted to damage him. All of a sudden they were like, that Hillary Clinton, shes pretty good. I remember that. Forget what we said about her, yeah. The one thing i hate to rain on this parade of negativity. But the fact of the matter is that in primary campaigns, for a variety of reasons, candidates can run their negatives up. And then when you pivot in the general election youd be surprised at how it shifts. And i want to come off something that rebecca said. And tara referencing it as well. And that is, you say shes when shes in a job people tend to like her . Interesting thing, being the nominee of your party is a job. You might be very surprised at that pivot. So ive been saying that for some time, so far weve seen Hillary Clinton run in this dramatic race in 2008, now again another dramatic race. Weve seen her lose once and come really close to losing this time. And so weve also seep her, if youre on the left, running against nice opponents whose politics we like where we dont want her to go after them. I think were going to see we dont know what its like to have a lot of the left behind hillary and cheering her on as an attacker. The other question on the other side tara, do you think the same thing applies on the republican side, where those negatives of donald trump are going to go down, hell get more popular when people consolidate, no matter what noise they make about never trumping . I think there will be a segment of the Republican Party that will unite behind him. But i think theres a segment of the Republican Party he has so disgusted, i think particularly women, the soccer mom republican women i think the ones in virginia, certain key states, i dont see them voting for him. I really dont. This is a question. I think you should keep a list of all the never trumpers. Im somewhat relishing crossing them off the list one by one as theyre up there epdoersing donald trump. Thanks so much for joining us. That is all in for this lovely, beautiful, balmy evening in new york city under the brooklyn bridge. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. Very near to where you sit right now there are migrating small striped bass. Okay. That was not the sentence that i thought would greet me at the end of this show. I know. But as always, as always with the Rachel Maddow show, i have learned something new. Ill look that up. Im just saying, while i have been listening to everything you said, all of i can think about is stripe bass behind you. Welcome to estuary talk. Thats exactly right. Those striped bass, they dont love me back. I try. I try to arrange a meeting. Every year. They dont love me back. Thanks to you at home for staying with us for the next hour. Happy monday. Happy spring striped bass migration in the northeast