Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline White House 20180920

Min kim who has been following every development in this story all week long. At the table, phil rucker, elise jordan and now cocoast of the excellent podcast words matter. Bill kristol and nick confisore for the New York Times. Lets start with you sung min. So major breaking news. Were still waiting for chairman grassley to Chuck Grassley to release his statement on this and any response because if you recall, there were some ways that grassley and his staff and Senate Republicans were willing to accommodate dr. Ford and her testimony. Earlier this week they had offered perhaps flying Senate Investigators out to california to speak with her there at her home if that would make her feel more comfortable. They offered public sessions, private sessions. But the one thing two things they werent budging on was that monday date as well as the their view that an fbi investigation before she testifies was not necessary. But now dr. Ford through her attorneys has offered a timeline thats not too far from the monday date line. Shes still saying shes willing to come next week. Shes still asking for that fbi investigation, and this aligns with what Democratic Senators called for, for days, when all this news broke. We actually at the Washington Post, we went back and looked at old clippings about, during the anita hill hearings in 1991 and looked at how long the fbi probe in that case took. It took about three days. It wasnt very long. And Democratic Senators are saying the fact that dr. Ford is asking for an fbi investigation actually bolsters her credibility. At an event on capitol hill, Kirsten Gillibrand said someone that is lying doesnt ask the fbi to investigate their claims. It will be interesting to see what Chuck Grassley says in the next, you know, five minutes or ten minutes or an hour, whenever he chooses to respond, if hes willing to move that monday date. The white house view 24 hours ago had been this confirmation was looking more secure, more i wouldnt say sure but like it had sort of turned from the shock of the of professor fords account over the weekend. This seems to reverse that tide a little bit. A little bit, but the white house has been preparing for her to come forward and testify. Theyve been spending all week with judge kavanaugh who has been hunkered down with don mcgahn to try to prepare for these questions and how hes going to answer these accusations. And i think theres a feeling in the white house still that his nomination will get through. Certainly more confidence now than there was on monday at the beginning of the week when it wasnt clear what more evidence this accuser might be able to bring or whether there could be other accusers or other components to the story. Are there chances there are other accusers or components to the story . Im not a magician. I dont know. The specter of a televised hearing with both judge kavanaugh and professor ford was ominous because of the unknown. That it was unknowable whether she would come across as a woman with nothing to gain and a credible story to tell. And whether, for all of the regard, high regard in which hes held in conservative legal circles and beyond that that would be insurmountable. Are you hearing anything different from that assessment from sources close to kavanaugh . Its a source the white house told me that judge kavanaugh is confident in his innocence. Hes confident in the case that he will present. And i think there is sadness that, clearly, dr. Ford has experienced some kind of trauma. Its evidence from how she has spoken of her experience, but judge kavanaugh is very confident in his innocence. Perhaps this is a case of mistaken identity. Everyone is waiting to hear what dr. Ford is going to say and what evidence she can give to support that it, in fact, was judge kavanaugh. This seems to me, bill kristol, like the moment in time when the me too movement collides with this sort of idea, equally cherished belief in due process. And i dont think anybody knows where its going to end. But it seems like for everyone else sort of swept up in the me too movement, there were a couple things different and distinct from the kavanaugh example. There were multiple accusers. Thats why i asked if there were any reports of anybody else. But the other is that no one has been given permission to question whether a woman misremembered. This case does seem to be breaking the mold a bit. If theres a hearing in which both testify and they can each make their case and professor ford wants to argue that other witnesses should be invited as well, mark judge who allegedly was there, if she wants to say that id like to have the fbi investigate, she can say that right to chairman grassley and have him explain why they shouldnt. What possible explanation for not im not sure. To say that, i was in the first Bush White House. The fbi did about a threeday investigation. It didnt resolve anything. That was before the hearingings. They talked to acheetah hill. She said one thing. They talked to clarence thomas. They have so the fbi arent magicians. And they cant just resolve it all. But the hearing would be healthy and maybe some additional witnesses would be healthy. I think it will happen in the middle of next week. Probably not on monday. And i think the republican senators will not be foolish enough to do the questioning themselves but will get a counsel this is bold saying republicans wont be foolish enough to do you think Chuck Grassley and oren hatch arent up to sensitive questioning of something that may have experienced a very difficult thing. I think theyre up to it but they i think theyll get ive been told theyre talking about getting a counsel who would do the questioning. I dont know what the democrats will do, all those people running for president may not be willing to yield their time or yield it to one or two of them who experienced questioners. So this is all sort of depressing in a certain way. Maybe it will be healthy. Theyll both testify and be treated respectfully. Well learn what well learn. Maybe this is a sense he wasnt either railroaded based on one accusation, nor was she treated in some way that was unfair or disrespectful. She seems to be holding the cards at this moment. Shes not agreeing to the monday deadline. Its unclear what the magic was in monday to begin with. And shes asking for some good conditions to be met that her safety be secured and that its fair. That seems to have in mind maybe what youre talking about, a questioner that adds some gender diversity at a minimum to the allrepublican makeup of the republicans on the judiciary committee. What do you make of where the power dynamic is in this moment . I think the only good scenario or the best scenario for republicans is to keep it moving and to keep the discussion within the bounds of he said she said. That sounds cynical but its one of the reasons they arent pushing to bring in march judk or any other witnesses. They want to move on as fast as they can. The second it gets bogged down, i think kavanaugh is in trouble. I dont think that any publicized hearing or airing of her story is good for judge kavanaugh, is good for the republicans. Its going to be wrenching and difficult. And they have not shown themselves as a party to be very smart and deft in handling these kinds of problems. Thats the understatement of the century. Let me ask you seung min to weigh in. Already burdened by an unpopular president the maledominated gop is now facing a torrent of scrutiny about how its handling kavanaughs accuser and whether the partys push to install him on the high court by next week could come at a steep political cost with women and independent voters who are the keystone for congressional majorities. Your picking up on that anxiety as you walk the halls up there . Its interesting. Publicly, republicans are confident until the news earlier just about an hour ago that dr. Ford would be willing to testify some time next week. Weve talked on the show all this week about how republicans have been publicly growing very confident in first of all, that theyd get or achieve a major conservative priority, that they would get judge kavanaugh installed. They are looking at the longer term impact, particularly with women. Its too early to figure out what the actual impact will be on the on the republicans handling of this. The independent voters, suburban women swing voters that both parties are watching very closely, and earlier, there was a report out by the nevada independent late last night with senator dean heller who is the most Vulnerable Senate republican on the ballot this november appearing to refer to the assault allegations against judge kavanaugh as a, quote, hic hiccup. Ive heard privately from those who are not too pleased with that remark and how senator heller used that phrase. So clearly theres a Political Risk for republicans. I also want to point out another interesting News Development today. The governor of alaska, hes an independent, bill walker, and the lunieutenant governor, issu a statement saying they oppose judge kavanaughs nomination. They are not republicans. They are independents, but they are pointing to his health care or kavanaughs health care record and labor record as a reason he should be voted down. And remember one of the key swing republican votes that still remain up in the air, Lisa Murkowski of alaska. Thats all very interesting. And it also sort of this political layer cant be ignored. Theres no one on capitol hill operating from a place of principle anymore. Its fair to assert that. Let me read some reporting from axios. Mike allen reports if Brett Kavanaughs nomination sinks, democrats would turn the midterms into a referendum not just on President Trump but also on womens rights abortion and the future of the Supreme Court. They always do that, to be fair, but this would give them a fresh example. Thats right. And everybody in both parties is looking at this through a political lens. They can talk about the Supreme Court and justice and values and all of that, but the democrats are thinking about the november elections which are only seven weeks away. If they can derail kavanaugh, i know democrats think they have a chance to really further energize their base. It may not even change, frankly, who sits on the Supreme Court because President Trump is going to turn around the next day and nominate an equally conservative judge if not a more conservative judge. Im told hell do the latter out of spite. That out of spite if they sink the kavanaugh nomination, hell pick someone more conservative to spite them. Thats who weve got as president. Let me read something said in the post. Ford has a powerful story to tell in trying to jam her into their abbreviated onesided process. Senate republicans open the door to far more dangerous options where the American People get to judge for themselves whether shes credible. As kavanaughs Approval Rating slides, republicans need to consider whether its worth unleashing a firestorm to defend a nominee who may be a further drag on their midterm races. Now this is unlike the last one, this is the political analysis republicans can make. Most people share your assessment this is a man standing by his innocence, but the Political Considerations do represent some risk for republicans. And i think that weve seen where this nomination fight, this conformation battle has moved so far beyond even who is Brett Kavanaugh and its just pure brutal partisan warfare. You look at his Approval Rating throughout this entire process and theyve been historically lower than other nominees who should have actually been more controversial compared to judge kavanaugh. And its a window into the times and into how divided and tribal and partisan we really are. Its an interesting point. I read somewhere that he probably in the post that he votes with Merrick Garland close to 90 of the time. But the other side of that is Supreme Court nominations are always partisan. They are. I was in the Bush White House for the thomas nomination. Got that through with democratic votes. A democratic senate. The two nevada senators who were democrats. A couple other southern democrats. Moderate conservative democrats before him. Quite a lot of support in the Africanamerican Community which helped. Its a political vote. And its going to be a partisan vote anyway just on sort of judicial philosophy. It would be nice. This is a case. This would be a case where if senator grassley and feinstein can stitt doit down and work ou judge kavanaugh and professor ford or her attorney a dignified and appropriate way to do this so it doesnt become a total circus. Its perfectly fair she have a hearing and judge kavanaugh be able to make his case. Youd think the senate could find a way to make this not an embarrassing moment for the country. Im going to start eating for lunch what you had. All this optimism is freaking me out. It lasts for about 12 minutes a day. Cocktail hour. I love it. So mike murphy, old campaign hand in republican circles said the perception of this, regard fls wh regardless of what the truth is could be yet another political problem for republicans. Were living in the woke era and Supreme Court nominations have become tv shows. And if your cast is mostly older, white republican male senators, youll have issues in that environment. Its the same thing weve been talking about. But the optics couldnt be worse for republicans. The me too movement collide with right wing politics. A president who has been accused by multiple women of sexual abuse and harassment has put forward for the court a man who has been accused by one woman of sexual abuse, Sexual Assault or attempted Sexual Assault, i should say. And he is poised likely to strike down apportion rights. So of course the optics are terrible. Everything the president is connected to takes on some of his liabilities. And judge kavanaugh has taken on the president s liabilities unfort nunately for him. Its why his rating is so low compared to other nominees. Whats one irony. What helped elect donald trump in 2016 . Among some swing voters it was the Supreme Court. Mitch mcconnell kept that seat open. A lot people didnt like trump. It was a rationalization. No doubt. Irony if two years later the Supreme Court becomes again a huge issue in the midyear election and maybe cuts the other way. Elise . Republican men who are endorsed by donald trump and who are attached to the apparatus that is the modern Day Republican Party of donald trump, they do not get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to women these days. And thats the byproduct of trumps atrocious behavior and language and own record and history of over a dozen allegations. The Republican National committee and trump supported. Seung min kim, come back if you hear anything from anybody up there. The attorney for Christine Blasey ford will appear with Rachel Maddow tonight at 9 00. Dont miss that. When we come back, more breaking news that will likely have some in the west wing even more rattled. Michael cohen sitting down with Robert Muellers team for multiple sessions lasting over many hours. Plus amid new reporting in the Washington Post painting a vivid picture of a president about to blow under crushing pressure. One of the reporters who wrote that story is sitting right here. And russias hijacking of an American Election in more detall than ever before. Brand new reporting in the New York Times that paints the fullest picture yet of what happened in the 2016 election. Stay with us. How can we say when you book direct at choicehotels. Com you always get the lowest price on our rooms, guaranteed . Lets say it in a really low voice. Carl . Lowest price, guaranteed. Just stick with badda book. Badda boom. Book now at choicehotels. Com billions of problems. Morning breath . Garlic breath . Stinky breath . Theres a therabreath for you. Therabreath fresh breath oral rinse instantly fights all types of bad breath and works for 24 hours. So you can. Breathe easy. Theres therabreath at walmart. Are you worried that Michael Cohen might flip . Look, i did nothing wrong. You have to understand, this stuff would have come out a long time ago. I did nothing wrong. Is Michael Cohen still your friend . News breaking just in the last hour from abc news that Michael Cohen has participated in hours of interviews with Robert Muellers team over the last month. From that report, quote, the special counsels questioning of cohen, one of the president s closest associates over the past decade has focused on trumps dealings with russia including financial and business dealings and the investigation into alleged collusion with russia by the Trump Campaign and its surrogates to influence the outcome of the 2016 president ial election. Sources familiar with the matter tell abc news. Investigators were also interested in knowing the sources say whether trump or any of his associates discussed the possibility of a pardon with cohen. Joining the conversation is former u. S. Attorney and former Deputy Assistant attorney general harry litman. What do you make of the fact that now that Michael Cohen is availing himself to the Mueller Probe to the Southern District of new york that there is basically an open floodgate of all of Donald Trumps business dealings and all and anything that Michael Cohen may have witnessed on the campaign when it comes to intersections or efforts to coordinate with russia. Its very significant, though i wouldnt say surprising. There had been some speculation maybe mueller isnt interested in talking to cohen. But he, obviously, has this wealth of information on russia. Also on the financial side where abc also reports that hes cooperating with the new York Attorney general. Its pretty huge. And also as with manafort, mueller has holds all the cards. Right now hes made no promises about whether hell give him any credit for cooperating. Same as with manafort and both men have to give it all up and hope for the best. And in cohens case, that is really a wealth of things in russia. Hes in the steele dossier, hes in the attempt to form a trump tower in moscow and also dating back ten more years on the financial side. And it would seem this is the first ive seen that muellers team is interested in talking to Michael Cohen about pardons. That seems to me that maybe theyre looking at cohen as a potential witness in the obstruction of justice. I think and more generally, they endorse the proposition that holding out the hope of a pardon or dangling the pardon is a potential obstruction of justice. Thats a theory that applies to multiple witnesses starting with steele and moving forward, including manafort. If theyve endorsed that theory, thats going to get a lot of play probably in the report. Nick confisore, what do you think of this abc news report. Its important to go back to trump tells. And we know from donald trump that the original raid on cohens offices was perhaps the gravest injustice that hes perceived so far. He called it an attack on the nation the day his lawyer and fixers offices and homes were raided. Theyve got to be sweating over there. 12 hours is a long time. A lot of testimony. I was thinking about the prague meeting that cohen denied having but which theres some reason to think he might have had. Its certainly possible to kind of evade passport stamping. But, look, whats fascinating is the president is being undone by his own lack of loyalty to cohen. And the question of pardoning him is beside the point. Cohen is on team america on this. If youd just given him some cheesy white house job and made him happy. Instead, hes turned. Hes not being pressured anymore. He is ready to cooperate. He is going for it. And thats got to be terrifying to the white house. Thats an interesting point, elise. He has now availed himself through media reports and through an attorney as has been reported to try to help bring down the president if he has participated in a conspiracy with russia to affect the election and help them make their obstruction of justice case. I agree with nick that a man who is rejected like Michael Cohen is far more dangerous than one who feels like he still has something to gain from this situation. He saw nothing left to gain from donald trump and just the totality of the terrible treatment that trump had heaped upon him and also just, why couldnt donald trump pay his legal bills . Why couldnt he as a trump inc employee pay the legal bills . Let me push back on you. Isnt bob mueller showing hes the great equalizer. Manafort was willing to stay loyal. Heres the deal. If you have any evidence about trump committing crimes, mueller is coming for you whether youre loyal or not. Im not even as interested in Michael Cohen as i am Michael Flynn. His sentencing date was set for december 18th. Some are speculating that his period of cooperation is over and the Mueller Investigation has elicited information they need from Michael Flynn. What did Michael Flynn do and what went down that he observed during the transition and during those, i think, 23 days he was National Security adviser. Let me bring harry back in. Two questions for you. Is mueller simply trading up . Hes now got cohen and manafort and is done with flynn. Is that why hes ready for sentencing . And pick up the thread on this question. It seems like whether youre loyal or not. If you have testimony mueller wants, hes going to get it. He is going to get it. Its not simply the disloyalty, though thats really been vivid, but cohen is going to be sentenced december 12th. He has series charges hanging over him. On flynn, it does indicate hes done with him. Usually youd keep him around if he might need to testify. But in all of these, were find with manafort, cohen, et cetera, mueller has belt and suspendered everything. We have the testimony from weisselberg and pecker on what cohen has to say in general. You have a really comprehensive and duplicative investigation by mueller. So i think he thinks he can let flynn go. I cut you off. If you step back and look at the forest end of the trees which is hard in a trump presidency. Mueller has had cooperation from manafort, cohen and flynn. Think about that. So he knows everything. He may or may not have discovered things that would be legitimate grounds for impeachment, either on collusion or obstruction. I think hes probably discovered enough hed feel hed have to let Congress Know what hes discovered. So one way or another, i think were looking at presumably, fairly soon after the election, the next two or three months after, a Mueller Report one way or another. If trump fires sessions, how does it affect him. I think mueller will make sure the congress of the United States knows what happened, and i suspect that what happened will at least raise enough questions that the house will go ahead with impeachment hearings. So well have an early 2019 if the democrats win the house. You know, even if the republicans held the house, if mueller says theres grounds, i guess youre looking at me skeptical. I guess youre right. I take it back. The republicans capability of totally ignoring everything i take it back. I crushed your hopes and dreams and killed your optimism. Were going to hear from james comey. I think theres an argument to be made that the conviction, the plea and cooperation by Paul Manafort may represent that were in the Fourth Quarter because the way you normally do investigations is you work from the bottom up. And so they are getting pretty high. Getting pretty high. Is that why your reporting today well talk about in the next segment, the president is about to blow. That seems to be in line with what ousted fbi director judge comey is describing. We dont really know what quarter mueller is in. But people around trump assume were at that latter stage. That theres a report being developed that, if trump does some sort of interview or answers some question, that will answer at some time this fall probably and that this investigation, according to people close to the president , they dont think its going to go too much into the new year and theyre hopeful it ends very soon. Lets put up what might be leading to their anxiety. Here are all of muellers cooperating witnesses. Mike flynn, george papadopoulos, Paul Manafort, Michael Cohen. They know everything. Not just about the president. If you were to put up the white house employees, don mcgahn, at least 30 hours of testimony from the sitting white House Counsel who was in the room when the decision to fire comey was made. In the room when sessions was asked to unrecuse himself. Who was in the room and laid his body on the tracks when the president wanted to fire robert mueller. Mueller knows everything. He knows a lot we dont know. I want to emphasize that so many times. He has access to financial information, tax returns, bank records. You think he has trumps tax returns . He has to, right . I cant say for sure, but i ascribe him superhuman powers. I would assume hed ask for them and get them and be entitled. Emails, phone records. Every time hes unveiled an indictment weve learned a great deal of things that we did not know. Even with several great newspapers breaking a lot of stories. We knows a lot. The incredible thing about this stage of the Mueller Investigation is for all of the president s talk about loyalty and his demands that the people who work for him or around him are completely 100 loyal. He does not return it in kind. I dont think we can point to a Single Person who is loyal to him over mueller right now. That we know. Harry litman, do you agree with that assessment . Everyone chooses mueller . Besides the big four cooperators, theres so many other sources of information. Weisselberg and pecker and sessions and comey. Hes really sort of from the start completely covered the waterfront. And i think he does. Number one principle is, we just dont know a fraction of what mueller knows. Thats a great point to end on. We know hes also spoken to every member of the National Security team and donald trump had asked them to be fact witnesses for him saying he hadnt colluded with russia. Mueller has access to all those people. Harry, thank you. Up next a president about to blow as weve been discussing. New reporting describes the situation inside the west wing as the walls close in on multiple fronts this afternoon. Thats next. And built a career in construction. But i couldnt bear my diabetic nerve pain any longer. So i talked to my doctor and he prescribed lyrica. Lyrica may cause serious allergic reactions suicidal thoughts or actions. Tell your doctor right away if you have these, new or worsening depression, unusual changes in mood or behavior, swelling, trouble breathing, rash, hives, blisters, muscle pain with fever, tired feeling or blurry vision. Common side effects dizziness, sleepiness, weight gain and swelling of hands, legs, and feet. Dont drink alcohol while taking lyrica. Dont drive or use machinery until you know how lyrica affects you. Those who have had a drug or alcohol problem may be more likely to misuse lyrica. Now i have less diabetic nerve pain. Ask your doctor about lyrica. 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For President Trump, the developments unfolding just this afternoon in both the battle for Brett Kavanaughs Supreme Court confirmation and Robert Muellers russia probe are helping to paint a picture of a president under siege on multiple fronts. The latest reporting suggests the situation is dire. From the Washington Post today, behind the scenes, trump is confronting broad sides from every direction, legal, political and personal. The russia investigation steamrolling ahead and Anonymous Administration officials seeking to undermine him and the specter of impeachment proceedings should the democrats retake the house on november 6th. The president s vulnerability may be the greatest of his presidency so far raising questions about when and how the pressure might cause him to burst. The panel still here. Phil rucker, you wrote that story with ashley parker. I feel like he burst in the hill tv interview where he said we dont have an attorney general and im going to cure the cancer that is the modern fbi. Ashley and i were both struck by that and considered it a real cry from him because he feels unprotected. Thats the key word right now. Unprotected at the Justice Department because he doesnt have an attorney general who he thinks is sufficiently loyal to him personally. But also in all these other realms. And you have to look around the corner whats coming. The midterm elections. Stormy daniels has her book coming out. Other books coming out later at the end of the year and hes deal with the prospect of all of these investigations and impeachment and probes by Congressional Democrats if they take back the house. It could be very troubling for them. Let me ask a broader question. Unprotected from what . He has a different view of what the presidency should be. He thinks all these people should be there to protect him. From the crimes he committed . From prosecution . From impeachment . If youve done nothing wrong, what do you have to fear from your own Justice Department . He fears all the time. Hes conspiratorial. Even in that same einterview he said im not a conspiratorial. He always fears a hidden hand. Always thinks somebody is out to get him. People are conspiring against him. His enemies are within. Hes very mindful of that and just doesnt trust many of the people in his government. So increasingly the stories about the Justice Department seem to need to be dovetailed with stories about his fitness to serve. There are serious questions that there were serious conversations among the cabinet about the 25th amendment. And what you just described is paranoia that makes Richard Nixon look stable and placid in the weeks before he resigned. This is a mindset thats terrifying. One problem with that oped was that it was a sole source anonymous description of a vague description of invoking the 25th amendment. I would have liked to have better sourcing on something of that importance personally as a reporter. Sounds like a personal problem. Im saying its hard to rely on it. Hard for all of us to rely on it. But theres no is that just different standards the oped page and its not a News Organization or its not part of the news section. I feel confident that we would probably not have run a news story saying that in the same way. But the fact is that his temperament is on the table. People are discussing it. Bob woodwards book has similar types of material suggesting that people around the president believe he does not have the fitness to be in office. And that is kind of scary. Not just his temperament that hes fuming at all these things. Its what hes done. Forced mcmaster out. Mcgann hn is leaving. Mcgahn has been pretty compliant in things and still has said no several times. Sessions, obviously, rosenstein, the entire Justice Department hes not speaking to. Its not just that hes unhappy or psychologically challenged. Its a crazy administration. Hes running an administration where hes getting i think there are fewer guardrails now than a year ago. And he seems more contemptuous the notion that anyone should ever tell him maybe you shouldnt do this, sir, and less tolerant of that. So i think 2019 is going to make 2018 look relatively placid. He seems to be lighting fire to all the guardrails that exist. If you look at the call this tweak declassify the fisa application. Which he admitted he hadnt read. Commentators he respected asked him to. And the commentators he respects, lets get that list. I believe it was sean hannity, the great lou dobbs is what he said. Jeannine piro. Thats who hes listening to instead of dan coats, secretary mattis and the National Security establishment. Donald trump has been very blatant about his fear of impeachment. And his last couple of rallies he has said he will get impeached if you dont come out and vote for me. So tonight is another rally in nevada and that will probably be the message. I dont know if thats an inspiring win that makes you want to support donald trump. Keep me out of trouble because this deep state conspiracy is taking me down. I dont know if thats enough to really perhaps it drives your base but i dont think it drives the people who voted for you initially because they didnt like Hillary Clinton that much. At those rallies its telling because his argument about why he cant be impeached is not ive done nothing wrong. Its i shouldnt be impeached because im doing such a great job. Impeachment is nothing to do with whether theres approve alf your job performance. Its whether you committed some sort of crime or done something wrong in office. You and ashley go into great detail about all of the things leading to this moment. What do you sense of his advisers is the greatest fear all of these external factors. Is it the Mueller Probe . The investigation out of sdny. Is it his growing rage and he really cant fire him until mueller is gone. What are they most afraid of when they turn on cable news or open your paper or yours . For a while theyd been very concerned about the Michael Cohen situation. Theres a little less concern about the mueller russia probe because theres a belief inside the white house that there is no collusion. That the president cant be found to have done anything wrong in terms of conspiring with russians during the 2016 campaign. They just dont think theres any there, there. Theres no control over what he tweets in the morning. He can start news cycles that theyre powerless to. Sarah sanders can wake up in the morning and her phone will buzz and she just has to deal with it for the day. She doesnt know its coming. Thats a concern. Its what trump can do and create that can be a problem to throw them off track when trying to govern. The idea they have any sort of calmness about the Mueller Probe seems misguided in that every indication ive heard is that its still a known unknown whether don junior has some expose tlur. Whether jared has been given an all clear. And whether the president himself is out of the woods in the obstruction or the conspiracy investigation. Look, there are certain costs this investigation can still impose on the president and the white house. I think they made the calculation that ultimately it will come down to a political question to impeachment. And thats just for the president , though. Right. Im just saying that i think they are not wrong in thinking that that is a fight they can win in the long term. I think if the president is impeached by a Democratic Party line vote, it bounces back and hurts democrats and strengthens him for the remainder of his term. For reelection. It shows how important the senate is. Everyone is focused on winning the house, which is quite likely. It will be important and theyll win some government governorships but those but this is why the president is going to every red state with a democratic senator to try to save them. Those are states trump carried. He thinks if he makes it a referendum on himself and they want to unjustly impeach me and they just hate me that he can rally enough voters to knock off a couple of democrats and hold the senate. The world looks very different in the republicans hold the senator they dont. I heard that the whole impeachment strategy from the president s outside legal team was not to avoid impeachment because its as you said. They looked at clintons appr e Approval Ratings. It was to avoid conviction in the senate. That explains the travel schedule. After the break new reporting in the New York Times about how russias influence campaign reached deep into Donald Trumps inner circle. That story. That reporting up next. man managing my type 2 diabetes wasnt my top priority. Until i held her. I found my tresiba® reason. Now im doing more to lower my a1c. I take tresiba® once a day. Tresiba® controls blood sugar for 24 hours for powerful a1c reduction. woman wed been counting down to his retirement. It was our tresiba® reason. He needs insulin to control his high blood sugar and, at his age, hes at greater risk for low blood sugar. Tresiba® releases slow and steady and works all day and night like the bodys insulin. vo tresiba® is a longacting insulin used to control high blood sugar in adults with diabetes. Dont use tresiba® to treat diabetic ketoacidosis, during episodes of low blood sugar, or if you are allergic to any of its ingredients. Dont share needles or insulin pens. Dont reuse needles. 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Book now at choicehotels. Com and by the way, folks, just in case youre curious, no, russia did not help me, okay . Russia. I call it the russian hoax. One of the great hoaxes. Now were being hindered by the russian hoax. Its a hoax, okay . You know it is pretty amazing, point after point, guilty, guilty, guilty. Oh, shes okay. And then they go after us for a russian hoax. Its a witch hunt hoax. Its isnt it incredible . Its a democrat hoax that was brought up as an excuse for losing an election. The debasement of the east room. A hoax it is not. A comprehensive new report from the New York Times that layed bare the incredible scope of russias campaign to interfere in u. S. Politics. The times writes, there is a plausible case that mr. Putin succeeded in delivering the presidency to his admirer, mr. Trump, though it cannot be proved or disproved. The report goes on, the russians carried out a landmark intervention that will be examined for decades to come. Wellconnected russians worked aggressively to recruit or influence people inside the Trump Campaign. Russians are suspected russian agents, including oligarchs, diplomats, former military officers and shadowy intermediaries had dozens of contacts during the campaign with mr. Trumps associates. Heres the gut punch. A former cia station chief in moscow tells the times the russians arent reckless and i dont see them going through with this effort without thinking they had a willing partner in the dance. Joining us now, former u. S. Ambassador to russia, michael mcfall. I read this this morning and thought of you. Eager for your thoughts and reaction. Well, it was a fantastic piece. I applaud mark and scott shane for doing it. You know, for me, to be honest, i read it and there was nothing new for me. Ive been following this story for a long time. But what they did is they separated the trees from the forest and reminded us of the forest. I think sometimes in the daytoday, the drip, drip, drip that we have on the russia investigation. The overfocus on the word collusion. Whoever did that needs to pay a price for that. There are a lot of other words we can use. And what they did is they just went through bit by bit and put it back together to show that this was a dramatic violation of american sovereignty designed to influence the outcome of the election. And maybe in the margins they played a pivotal role. I agree with you on the piece. And i also want to have you pull out because i think that one place where trump has been successful is casting at least questions around whether the russians preferred trump. Theres no doubt the russians wanted trump. If you are the guy that Vladimir Putin youre the guy that Vladimir Putin wanted, it really draws into question why youre to be trusted with our National Security. Let me read you something on this question and have you just flesh out a little more what they report in the why trump. So they write of the more than 20 major candidates running for the american presidency only mr. Trump had repeatedly expressed admiration for mr. Putin as a strong leader and brushed off criticism of russia. Only he had little interest in the traditional american preoccupation with democracy and human rights repeatedly pursuing a trump tower project in moskow and bringing his beauty badge want there in 2013. And only he tweeted this, michael mcfall. Do you think putin will be going to the Miss Universe pageant in november. I mean that guy became president. I would add to it he was also the only president ial candidate who would look into recognizing crimea as part of russia, a territory that russia annexed in 2014, stole from ukraine. And he would look into lifting sanctions. And remember the candidate he was running against, secretary clinton said exactly the opposite on all those things. But you dont have to believe me. Just go back and look at the tape when putin himself said in helsinki that he preferred candidate trump and for a very rational set of reasons. He was the most prokremlin candidate in the 2016 president ial election. In American History he was the most prokremlin putin candidate. Let me press you to explain to our viewers why. Well, thats we need mr. Mueller to help with that. Do we really . Are we too timid to say it . Why would an american be so proputin. I mean he threatens all of our traditional alliances, the sovereignty and security of all of our allies and all of their neighbors. I mean, why would an american president hold those positions . Well, i actually do think there are two different hypotheses. Forgive me for speaking like a Political Science professor now. But one, is donald trump has a very unique, im putting it diplomatic theory of relations. And he as well as mr. Kim jongun as well as mr. Putin suggests that is something unique to donald trump, President Trump. He things these tough guys with people he can deal with, and by befriending them hes going to move in a way thats going to move relations. Thats hypothesis number one. Hypothesis number two, theres leverage, things in his past that makes him beholden to Vladimir Putin. And on that hypothesis i think theres a lot of circumstance substantial evidence, but i want to know more particularly about money. It was in the story today, so im glad they pointed it out, but particularly about money that came from russia into the trump organization, thats the part we need to have more details about. Let me give both of those to t tim. Theres always been views like that on parts of the right and parts of the left. Pat bucanyon is kind of proputin, antihuman rights. Its a tough world out there. If dictators run their country in a tough way, who are we to decide trump, that is how he looks at the world. But its possible both views, both hipoypothesis are correct. The evidence so far for both hypothesis too is minimal but pretty interesting. We know after he blew most of his familys money on the first stabling of his career and had gone bankrupt and moving towards tv, a lot of their money came from russia, russian interests. These were his customers and deal partners for the second phase of his phase at a Real Estate Developer and he depended on them. I think we have to know a lot more about the sources of that money, the uses of that money and transactions for real estate over the years. Everyone in washington knew Paul Manafort had worked for the worst russian oligarchs and anti antiukrainians who were part russian stooges and so forth, and it was such a mindboggling appointment that he thought he could get out of that. But in particular the close relations to a lot of the same oligarchs who sort of funded directly or indirectly trump. For me manafort is big tell. You can say he didnt have some of the normal guards, but he also felt a kind of kinship with manafort. Let me ask you to weigh in on that. I havent seen you since manafort became a cooperator. But what do you think hed want to know from Paul Manafort . Well, i agree. That was out of the blue. I mean, ive known about Paul Manaforts operations like bill was talking about for a long time. Very strange choice, and most certainly there is an overlap with the kinds of people that he was involved with in ukraine and in russia and allegedly that had been funneling money into our country through organizations like trump. And i want to be clear. I dont know what the outcome of that is. I dont know the evidence. I want to see it, but i do know that that is a method that putin uses to create influence and leverage within russia and other countries in europe. It is a very standard, you know, giving money away and saying well deal with this later. Well figure this out. Were going to be in business for a long time. Thats Standard Operating Procedure for putin generally, and maybe it was true here as well. Let me just echo your comments about the piece. Its excellent. Ambassador mcfall, thank you so mup. We have to sneak in our last break. Well be right back. N our last break. Well be right back. Dont forget that the past can speak to the future. Im going to be your substitute teacher. Dont assume the substitute teacher has nothing to offer. Same goes for a neighborhood. Dont forget that friendships last longer than any broadway run. Mr. President. laughing dont settle for your first draft. Or your 10th draft. You get to create the room where it happens. Just dont think you have to do it alone. 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But we begin tonight with news that is breaking right now, and it could have some republicans