Justice because hes the countrys chief Law Enforcement officer. Thats the most undemocratic, unamerican thing ive ever heard. Ty cobb distancing himself from that argument. My oldest boy john conyers iii who incidentally i endorsed to replace me in my seat in congress. I want you all to make sure you heard that news bomb the congressman just dropped. I am retiring today. He is the longest serving member of congress. There have been calls for him to step down after allegations of Sexual Misconduct. Inappropriate behavior from sexual suggestions, taking meetings in his underwear, inappropriate staffing. Debbie gibson who said moore dated her when she was a teenager and he was in his 30s offered new evidence. We dated for a brief time. And we kissed with my consent. And im very sad that hes decided to say he doesnt know me. I now know for sure that he is a liar. Republican National Committee two weeks after yanking its resources from alabama is now returning to the state. Senator paul, do you still support roy moore, sir . Weve been trying to get an answer out of your office for a long time. We got to run. Thanks, guys. Why is this such a hard question . Do you still support roy moore . You endorsed him. Youre one of the only republicans left. Just a week away from election day in alabama. So many things, so many stories. But im not an elected official. I dont think thats a difficult question. This morning new russia headaches for the Trump Administration as reuters reports that special Counsel Robert Mueller issued a subpoena for Deutsche Bank records relating to accounts held by President Trump and his family. In a statement the bank said, quote, Deutsche Bank always cooperates with investigating authorities in all countries. Now, we need to disclose i worked for Deutsche Bank from 2002 to 2011. Note that Deutsche Bank statement, we cooperate with authorities from all countries. Back in may, democratic members of Congress AskedDeutsche Bank for those records. They wanted to understand the 10 billion in business that deutsch had done with russia. They wanted to know about trumps bank records. And Deutsche Bank didnt say yes. They didnt say yes because they werent subpoenaed. They werent forced to. And we should also draw a bunch of lines here. Again, theyre lines. Theyre not necessarily direct connections. After the russia crisis in 1998, most global banks for the most part all global banks left russia. Even Steve Schwartzman of blackstone, i interviewed in davos a couple of years ago and people were getting back into russia. He said no. We do not do business in places where we cant trust the rule of law. Deutsche bank was sort of the only game in town. You have deutsche who has done it in russia. Youve got deutsche on the institutional side lost a lot of money with trump. Why would they lend to him again . Theres a big difference doing business out of a private bank and an institutional bank. They did it on the other side where they could have been smaller loans. Trump on the private side as i understand it was willing to put up collateral, his own businesses, his golf courses, trump tower potentially as collateral. So those are o two different things. And to your point earlier that Deutsche Bank didnt which to give out the information, we dont necessarily think its wrong that banks preserve the privacy of their clients. No. In the case where there is a subpoena and investigation, we definitely want banks to cooperate. But generally speaking we dont want our banks giving information out just because somebody asked for it for political reasons. So there is something to this story. Were going to be following this. It all comes on the heels of news that former trump chairman Paul Manafort is running into trouble with his bail release. Now, prosecutors who initially supported manaforts release to house arrest now oppose it. Saying manafort recently you got to listen to this. He recently tried to cowrite an opinion piece. An oped recording his work in ukraine with an acquaintance believed to have russian intelligence ties. You cannot make this up. And more twists regarding that now infamous saturday morning tweet implying that President Trump knew mike flynn lied to the fbi when flynn was fired. Ty cobb now backing off an argument made by President Trumps personal lawyer john dowd who told nbc, quote, the president cannot obstruct justice because he is the chief Law Enforcement officer under the constitutions article ii and has every right to express his view of any case. Cobb tells nbc news, i expect a factbased exoneration that does not require that level of legal analysis. There is no strategy of which im aware to rely boldly on the proclamation that obstruction is always impossible with regard to a president. I want to make one point, ali. Were often asked by viewers, why doesnt wall street react more to the news we hear out of the white house . Why dont they make a bigger deal . This is a perfect example. We hear a lot of things out of President Trump, out of one lawyer. Very quickly they get back tracked, talked back. From the markets perspective they dont want to make trades based on something that could be back tracked in six hours or six days. And theres one more manafort tie. Paul manafort has been allegedly charged with Money Laundering and laundering some of that money to banks in cypress. Secretary wilbur ross was the vice chairman of the bank in cypress. Would you like to know who he apointed him on the board . Joseph ackerman also on the board of cypress. Wilbur ross led the sale of the Bank Business to a russian banker with direct ties to putin. Again, we are not saying that we dont know the direct lines but there are a lot of connections. Kushner family also done banking with deutsche. This works into the whole investigation. However, in light of the president s attacks on the Justice Department, on congress, on the judiciary, we figured we would just give you a mini civics lesson. Theres no better way than to start a Little School house rock. No one can be more powerful than any other is each controls the other you see and thats what we call checks and balances well everybodys act is part of the show and no ones job is more important okay. So lets take a look at the basics. Article i of the constitution gives all legislative powers to congress. The house and senate work to create laws, raise revenue working as an independent branch of government that does not answer to the president. Im going to get to the white house in a moment. But lets go to article iii of the constitution which creates the federal judiciary with the Supreme Court sitting at the top. It interprets laws and treats treaties independently of congress and the executive deciding cases based solely on constitutional law. Lets go back to article ii of the constitution which establishes the presidency. The president has executive power. Hes charged with enforcing the laws that are passed by congress serving as the commander in chief of the armed forces. And making treaties with the senates approval. While he can veto laws made by congress, congress can override the president with a 2 3 majority. Now, to help in the president s Law Enforcement capacity because thats why were doing this, congress created the Justice Department in 1870. It is part of the executive branch. Thats the president s branch of government. The fbi was created nearly 40 years later. Long standing protocol prempbve the department of justice being run by the president to preserve the impartiality of the investigations. The president has shown hes simply not happy with this arrangement. In a recent swipe tweeting the bureaus reputation is in tatters, the worst in history. Talking specifically about the fbi. Now, the fbi director chris wray didnt mention the president s name but he did tell agents in a memo he is inspired by example after example of professionalism and dedication to justice demonstrated around the bureau, it is an honor to represent you. This is a sentiment thats been echoed by james comey when he was head of the fbi. By Robert Mueller when he was head of the fbi. Nobody actually goes after the fbi in terms of their integrity and dedication to work. It is very unusual, highly unusual. Its not that people shouldnt criticize things. We exist in a business to criticize things. But for the president to be insulting the department is new for us. Joe scar borough reminded us saying mr. President , this will be your demise. You do not want to question, undermine, or doubt your own agencies. These are your guys. These men and women protecting us, protecting you. In many cases anonymously putting themselves on the line, dying to protect the american constitution and the safety of americans. So this is it is entirely unchartered territory. I will remind you that questioning Law Enforcement, questioning intelligence agencies and delegitimatizing the media is not new in the world. Generally speaking we see it from dictators. We can question everything and everything. Absolutely. Its about discrediting and undermining. Its what the president said about the fbi is delegitimatizing and discrediting. Holdings to account is an important job for us, for the president , for every american. I question your whiide ties, but i dont discredit it. Youre just mad because i did school house rock. I am. That was awesome. There should have been some dancing though. Barbara mcquaid, she formerly served as u. S. Attorney for the Eastern District of michigan. And law professor jed sugarman. I want to replay the sound bite that led us down this road. You cannot charge a president with obstruction of justice for exercising his constitutional power to fire comey and his Constitutional Authority to tell the Justice Department who to investigate, who not to investigate. All right, jed. You know allen dershowitz. Whats going on here . Well, i think hes making a bad argument. And its an argument that sessions. Senator sessions as senator, senator grassley and mcconnell all talked about their legal argument against clinton explicitly as an obstruction of justice charge. The first article of impeachment against nixon was very close to didnt mention it explicitly. It was an obstruction of justice charge. Why a president could obstruct justice. Or why the president as a Law Enforcement officer is not above the law. You know, nixon said if the president does it, it cant be illegal. Well, weve rejected that, i think. Heres examples of why this is a bad argument. If the president gets a Million Dollars to fire jim comey, quid pro quo, can he do that because he has the constitutional power to do that . No. Hed be guilty of bribery. The president is commander in chief and orders a military strike and blows up a site. And it turns out later we find out the reason why he ordered that strike was because his wifes lover was at that site. He has the power to order military strikes, but the point is what was the purpose . What was the intent . The president orders documents to be destroyed as part of Law Enforcement. That would also be a crime. And thatd be a crime of obstruction of justice. The president is not above the law. The statute in play here talks about what the intent was. Was it corrupt intent . That was the challenging thing to prove but fortunately trump has essentially confessed to that three different times. Barbara, what do you think about this . Lets talk about the firewall that is supposed to exist that most americans thought existed between the white house and department of justice or fbi investigations. So the idea that the president controls the department of justice i think is not the norm, not the way it was run when i was there and dating back many generations. In fact, their policy that prohibits the white house and the department of justice except at the highest levels. To ensure there is no politicking with regard to the cases. The idea the president calls the shots is not the way it tiply works. Certainly the president under the constitution has the duty to take care that the laws are faithfully executed. But that typically means that he can calm the shots. I favor aggressive enforcement of our drug laws. I prefer not to devote so many resources to the enforcement of environmental crimes. That would be appropriate. But to meddle in a particular case is with the way the department operates. Lets go back to Deutsche Bank and what mueller could be looking for her. Again, it is entirely possible for Deutsche Bank which could have looser lending standards than other banks to do business with President Trump. Do business with the kushners. Do business with them. I think so theyre trying to connect the dots. For which all worse than banks black balled. The one exception, as you said, was Deutsche Bank. And so they were bank rolling him. I want to point out that just in january, Deutsche Bank was hit with a 600 million fine because they were caught for 10 billion Money Laundering scheme with whom . Russia. And i just im going to plug someone elses, not my book. People should read the 15 pages in this book that goes much more this is a guardian reporting. New book is called collusion. He lays out the background from the 90s through the 2000s of some bizarre business dealings that could only be explained if you want to connect the dots that there was an arrangement between trump, Deutsche Bank being willing to throw away hundreds of millions of dollars. Why . Because they understood that they had criminal exposure to Money Laundering and thered be lots of advantages both with carrots and sticks for having trump in the white house. To protect them from doj investigations. We also need to remember that don junior said in a speech at a real estate conference, they have an overwhelming amount of assets from russia. Eric said something similar with regard to financing for their golf courses. While trump has said, ive got nothing to do with russia, what he said to lester holt was i havent built anything in russia. I havent invested there. Theres a very big difference. No one is saying that trump invested his money in a building in russia. Correct. And then theres questions about his former partner bayrock. Embroiled in a lot of problems. All right. Well, good conversation. Thank you Barbara Mcquaid and professor jed sugarman. Stick around, everyone. Breaking news on michigans democratic congressman john conyers retiring today. Saying he will not seek reelection. Thats coming up next. Theres much more ahead today. Heres what well be watching. At 12 30, President Trump will have lunch with Senate Republicans at the white house. 7 30 tonight, steve bannon is going to campaign with roy moore in alabama. More on that race coming up. At 8 00 tonight, Colin Kaepernick will receive the Sports Illustrated muhammad ali legacy award. Kaepernick is also on the short list for times person of the year. Well find out who gets that honor tomorrow on nbcs today show. Tweet us. Velshiruhle. Who do you think is getting time person of the year . Spoiler alert, i think its ali. I think its not. Lets take bets on that. Well be right back. Youre watching msnbc. [ mouse clicks, keyboard clacking ] [ mouse clicking ] [ keyboard clacking ] [ mouse clicking ] [ keyboard clacking ] good questions lead to good answers. Our advisors can help you find both. Talk to one today and see why were bullish on the future. Yours. Talk to one today and see why were bullish on the future. When this guy got a flat tire in the middle of the night, so he got home safe. Yeah, my dad says our insurance doesnt have that. What . you can leave worry behind when liberty stands with you™. Liberty mutual insurance. Welcome back. Youre watching velshi ruhle. Weve got breaking news. John conyers retiring. Effective today. Conyers, the longest serving current member of the house is accused of Sexual Misconduct by several women. Hes been under pressure to resign from fellow democrats including House Minority leader nancy pelosi. He made the announcement on the radio in the last hour. I am retiring today. And i want everyone to know how much i appreciate the support, the incredible, undiminished support ive received across the years from this supporters, not only in this district but across the country as well. Now, this comes as another former staffer claims that conyers touched her inappropriately. In a new affidavit posted on twitter by attorney lisa bloom, lisa grubbs said, quote, conyers slid his hand up my skirt and rubbed my thighs while i was sitting next to him in the front row of a church. Conyers attorney calls the claim nothing more than tom foolery. Kasie hunt joins us now. Youre also an expert in tom foolery. Walk us through whats happening here. Was it suspected that conyers was going to seek reelection . Hes a pretty old guy. Overnight, there was a New York Times story wrote that we should expect that conyers would not seek reelection. There had been no indication until all of these became front and center and in the news that there would be anything except for a john conyers reelection campaign. Now, he is 88 years old. Going to turn 89. He is the dean of the house of representatives. Its longest serving member. At least until today. While people close to him dont want to characterize this as in response to the allegations, that is suddenly whats put all of this pressure on him and has him now back in michigan in detroit making this announcement hes going to retire on the radio. Theyve been clear this is a retirement, not a resignation. The family members close to john conyers have been very defensive of him insisting that this needs to be his decision. His lawyer giving a pretty sharp press Conference Last Week saying this is not up to nancy pelosi to decide. That john conyers himself is going to decide this matter. Now of course you have the congressman himself saying hes going to retire. That it is effective today. That was a little bit there was some confusion around his interview and how this would play out or how this would happen. We do now have confirmation it is effective as of today, this retirement. Question, of course, who might run for the seat . You have john conyers iii endorsed by his father john conyers jr. Is the elder congressman announcing his retirement. He is going to support his son, ian conyers. Hez grand nephew also going to run for the seat as well. All right. Thank you very much. Kasie hunt for us on capitol hill. Stick around, everyone. The gop is out in full force now for Alabama Senate candidate roy moore even though multiple women have accused him of Sexual Assault and child molestation. Even though many of those republicans have previously said they believe the women. All right. And speaking of political candidates that were not taken down by serious assault claims, former today show host billy bush is speaking out about that infamous access Hollywood Tape that surfaced in 2016. Bush wrote, yes, donald trump, you said that in a New York Times oped. He also made an excuse for why he laughed at trumps grab them by the you know what comment. Here he was last night. I think a lot of us were the big word is complicit. But everybody had to sort of kiss the ring a little bit of the donald as because he was making so much money for nbc. And where was he wearing that ring . Its a small finger. A worm like, a dagger . A tiny sword . Bread. Breadstick . A matchstick a lamppost coin slot no . Uhhh. 10 seconds. A stick a Walking Stick eiffel tower, Mount Kilimanjaro ding time sorry, its a tandem bicycle. What . What . as long as sloths are slow, you can count on geico saving folks money. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. We are the driven. The dedicated. The overachievers. We know our best investment is in ourselves. We dont take no for an answer. We fight for what we want. Even for the things that were once a given. Going to college. Buying a home. And not being in debt for it for the rest of our lives. But were only as strong as our community. Who inspires and pushes us to go further than we could ever go alone. Sofi. Get there sooner. Welcome back to velshi ruhle. Here are stories were watching right now. In the russia investigation, a new report reveals that Robert Mueller asked Deutsche Bank to share information on the accounts held by trump and his family. Deutsche bank said they always cooperate with investigating authorities in all countries. In southern california, a fastburning wildfire has forced more than 30,000 people to evacuate their homes. The fire is growing rapidly in ventura county. Get ready for this. The equivalent of a football field every second. I find that incredible. Usa today reports the fbi has issued more than 4,000 requests to seize guns from buyers who did not pass background checks this year alone. The bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives is in charge of recovering the firearms. Nbc news reports that a microwave weapon could fry north Korean Missile controls according to experts. Two u. S. Officials told nbc news that the weapons were discussed at an august white house meeting related to north korea. And republicans appear to be going all in for roy moore. The Alabama Senate candidate whos accused of Sexual Misconduct with teenage girls decades ago. Hours after President Trump gave his full endorsement of moore yesterday, the republican National Committee threw its support behind him. Three weeks after canceling its fund raising agreement with his campaign. Tonight steve bannon will campaign for moore in the town of fair hope. And it looks like moore is regaining voter support. The latest real politics average puts him ahead of doug jones by almost three points. A poll finds 71 of republicans say the allegations against him are not true. Moore denies all of the allegations calling them political ploys and claims he doesnt know any of his accusers. But Debbie Wesson gibson said moore dated her when she was just a teenager but did not assault her. She offered new evidence that they did know each other. I came across a card and it was a High School Graduation card from roy moore. I wanted to give you this card myself. I know youll be a success in anything you do, roy. He did not perpetrate Sexual Misconduct towards me nor have i claimed that, but i now know for sure that he is liar. The campaign responded by saying, quote, roy moore already said he knew Debbie Wesson and her family but did not recall any formal dates. Further more when he said he didnt know any of the women, he was referring to those who accused him of Sexual Assault. Joining us now republican strategist and msnbc political analyst. All right, rick. Lets take a look at what some of the accusers have said and how republicans republicans including mitch mcconnell, not a guy to go out on a limb, have supported them. Listen to this. He touched me over my clothing, what was left of it. And he tried to get me to touch him as well. He just grabbed my behind. I mean, forcefully grabbed it. And i didnt even react. I just walked out. I think he should step aside. Do you believe these accusations to be true . I believe the women, yes. Has anything happened to you since you came out as an accuser . Ive been followed. Yeah, by some people. I have to be very careful wherever i go. He should step aside. Number one, these allegations are credible. If he cares about the values and the people he claims to care about, then he should step aside. I still think its unfortunate. Were going to have a tough enough time in years. Not going to help. Yesterday mitt romney tweeted out it would be a stain on the Republican Party if roy moore took a seat in the senate. Yet his niece whos head of the rnc is now backing roy moore. You rick tyler tweeted this earlier today. Caught our eye. Quote, the gop is on death watch 2018. Walk us through. Why would republicans change their tune . Many made it very clear this isnt about politics. Its about decency. The problem when you make a deal and walk with the devil, the devil will keep changing the deal. Were told President Trump would act president ial and be president ial and stand for morality and righteousness. But he is accused of Sexual Misconduct himself. He can offer no leadership on this. And now hes capitulating. Hes gotten the rnc and apparently the rnc, the republican leadership. So theres another deal with the devil. Theyre going to take roy moore for the shortterm and theyre going to lose badly in 2018 specifically because they will lose, i believe they will lose women in suburban districts and swing states so you could possibly lose the house and the senate. And if you think that donald trump thinks he has trouble now, imagine if the Democrats Gain control of the majority in the u. S. House of representatives where they will have Investigatory Power and subpoena power . We just had we showed some video a little earlier. We might be able to show it again actually. Kentucky senator rand paul back at congress. He will not answer questions now. He remains the last u. S. Senator to still have an endorsement for roy moore and he was asked about it. Lets listen to this. Do you still support roy moore, sir . Weve been trying to get an answer out of your office for quite a while. We got to run. Thanks, guys. Senator, why is this such a hard question . Do you still support roy moore . You endorsed him. Youre one of the only republicans left. Thank you. What do you make of that, rick . Because rand paul is one of those guys who is principled and will often take a position thats not popular with other people. But why would rand paul be supporting roy moore at this point . Its not clear to me that he is. But his refusal to answer the question speaks very loudly. Its a simple question to answer. You either support him or you dont support him. Lets know where you are. It appears as though he doesnt want to say anything because the Republican Party has capitulated. Whats at stake for those who for republicans who dont stand we the president , who dont stand with roy moore here . I mentioned earlier what mitt romney said yesterday via twitter. But mitt romney is not currently in office. We know that when guys like jeff flake say something, then the president says hes a sitting duck, hes leaving, who cares. For those who are in office who are seeking reelection standing up and standing out against roy moore, what are the consequences . I think the founders are clear about saying that imagine citizens would go a few years and maybe a few terms and then go home and return to be citizens. And thats something the conservatives have always talked about and they talk about term limits. That means sometimes youve got to take a stand. And you may take a stand and lose your seat. And thats what its about. What were seeing is a lack of leadership and were seeing in particular for the Republican Party, theyre losing the moral high ground here. Because the Republican Party has mostly stood for values. Right . And if you cant stand for values, then you stand for nothing. And if you stand for nothing, then whats the point in winning . Its a good point. Thanks for your analysis. Always good to see you. Rick tyler. Stand by, everyone. Republicans selling the senates tax plan with some very big promises like the idea that it will decrease the National Debt for facts sake. Thats not true. Next, the four biggest whoppers surrounding the tax bill. You are watching velshi ruhle. Morning on the beach was so peaceful. Until. It. Wasnt. Dont let type 2 diabetes get between you and your heart. Because your risk of heart attack or stroke is up to four times greater. But there are steps you can take to lower your cardiovascular risk. Talk to your Health Care Provider today about diabetic heart disease. And find out more at heartoftype2. Com. Your heart and type 2 diabetes. Make the connection. Theres nothing more important than your health. So if youre on medicare or will be soon, you may want more than parts a and b heres why. Medicare only covers about 80 of your part b medical expenses. The rest is up to you. 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Youll be able to choose any doctor or hospital that accepts medicare patients. Whether youre on medicare now or turning 65 soon, its a good time to get your ducks in a row. Duck quack call to request your free decision guide now. Because the time to think about tomorrow is today. laughter on tv when its finally sunday and youve got no plans but with your comfy pants. alert chime on phone keep it simple with Marie Callenders roasted turkey stuffing. Tender turkey with stuffing, creamy mashed potatoes, and made from scratch gravy. Spoiler alert, things are about to get good. click, laughter on tv because me time calls for Marie Callenders. Welcome back to velshi ruhle. The Senate Tax Plan comes with very big promises. Especially after heavy criticism of the house plan. So as Congress Begins reconciling the two plans, for facts sake, lets look at the senates claims and their plans reality. The claim, the bill wont increase the debt. The reality, it absolutely will. In fact, it will push the debt up to the tune of 1 trillion over the course of ten years. The claim . It was designed to benefit the middle class. The reality . Corporations get a permanent cut. Individuals, well their cut gets erased in 2027. By then, everyone making less than 75,000 a year will be paying more out of their paychecks. Claim number three. It wont benefit the wealthy. The reality . Thats a lie. By 2027, the wealthiest americans get 62 of the plans benefits. And if certain elements of the house plan survived, the president s family stands to save more than a billion dollars. Claim number four. The cuts will grow the economy significantly. The reality . The jtc analyzed the senate bill and found it would grow the economy by 0. 8 over a total of ten years. Thats growth, but not the supercharged kind republicans are hoping for. Joining us now is msnbc contributor jared bernstein. Hes a senior fellow at the center on budget and policy priorities. He served as chief economist and Economic Policy adviser to Vice President joe biden. Jared, let me just start with this. Paul ryan spoke a short time ago about how great this tax plan is. Lets listen to what he said. Congress is getting rid of these loopholes. Whether you live in new york, california, or south dakota, were giving tax breaks to families at every income level. This is the selling point. Does it jive with what you know about this bill . Certainly not over the longterm. I forget if it was false claim three or four that steph just went through. But remember the individual tax cuts in this plan start phasing out in 2025 and are gone by 2027. So that by the time the plan is fully phased in and i think thats the correct way to fully assess the plan, on average households with incomes below 75,000 fliebwill be necessary l. What paul ryan was doing was cherry picking. Thats been the characteristics of the proponents plan. When talking about cutting out loopholes, yet when we were speaking to republicans from utah, repeatedly asked him with regard to cutting taxes in cutting Corporate Taxes which loopholes would be closed. What was his answer . Lots, he said. But he couldnt name any. Republicans are trying to discredit their analysis saying, quote, the substance, timing, and growth assumptions of jcts dynamic score are suspect. Why suddenly would they be attacking a group that they traditionally praised . Yeah, well, this is the classic, if you dont like the score attack the referee. And the jct, the cbo. Ive been in this town for a long time. And that just wasnt done because they are the nonpartisan scorekeepers. It doesnt mean everything they do is 100 correct, we agree to accept their judgments. I want to get back to a point you made about loopholes. Its gotten lost in this debate. Its not like we dont need tax reform. The corporate side particularly. The International Side especially is a hot mess. And it could stand lots of improvement. Thats not what we got. The way you improve the Corporate Tax is by doing precisely what ryan wasnt able to address. That is you broaden the base and you could even take down the rate by doing so. You broaden the base by closing loopholes. Our Corporate Tax rate at a statutory level is 35 . The effective rate is closer to 20 or 25 because corporations have tax lawyers who make sure they tap all of those loopholes. Its an inefficient part of the system and its worse now, not better. Part of the conversation we were having with that congressman yesterday was he kept on claiming that if you give these benefits, these tax cuts to corporations and the wealthy, it will trickle down. And it does seem to be a continuing argument. We heard it from steve mnuchin. Weve heard it from gary cohn that there are a lot of people whoo still believe in trickle down economics. We seem to have lots of evidence that doesnt actually work. It was representative chris jordan of utah who we were talking to. Chris stewart. Referee so you know, youre suggesting this is an argument thats been going on for a little while. Ive been trying to fight this with empirical evidence for about 30 years. If facts could kill trickle down economics, i would be giving its eulogy at its graveside. But in fact, were still arguing about it. Well the evidence is not there. Let me just give you one example thats been underappreciated this debate. Not too long ago the United Kingdom lowered their Corporate Tax rate from 30 to 20 . Did wages get that thousands of dollars of boom that the administration promised . Not in the slightest bit. Thats just the latest example. We could look at kansas in tis country. Also something thats overlooked, when corporations have more money, they do reinvest it. They improve their productivity. They improve their operations. And that does potentially stimulate the economy. But what it doesnt do is serve the low wage worker. That low wage worker has a higher probability of losing his or her job when those companies reinvest. And they invest in things like automation and technology. So it might help the its good for profitability and gdp in some cases, stock market growth. Not good for wages. Zblit might help certain parts of the economy. What it doesnt do is address income inequality which it claims to. Wait a second. Corporations are currently sitting on literally trillions of dollars of retained earnings. That is cash on hand. Also if they wanted to borrow, Interest Rates are extremely low. So there is nothing stopping our current corporate sector from doing precisely what you just described, stephanie. They dont need a big tax cut to incent them to do that. They could do that already and in fact theyre not. By the way i think it probably relates to inequality. If people dont have the extra money to buy the things that create demand. Exactly. If the middle class, if the Median Income is stagnant, then youre just not going to see the kind of demand that necessarily precedes that investment. This is something weve known for a long time. Weve got a global workforce. They dont need to increase wages. Jared bernstein, thank you. Can i ask you one question . Did you remember yesterday to ali. I want to remind you when we interviewed the republican from utah about carried interest and we said we couldnt find a Single Person who argued why it should be in there. And he said, oh, wait until this thing gets reconciled then youll see. It made no sense. Yeah. Because its not to be reconciled because both bills maintain carried interest. Why would you in this rushed effort to get this done before christmas bring in something thats not actually at odds in either of the bills. That was one of the more ridiculous conversations. He made the argument we would see carried interest taken out during reconciliation. Why on earth would that happen . Both sides left it in. I had a great conversation with kevin hast et, Grover Norquist on yesterday. There are all sorts of people who you know who their position is and you can argue with them. Or listen to them. But that conversation yesterday was bordering on ridiculous. It didnt make sense at all. There will be no reconciliation about carried interest because they both dont think it needs dealt with. Coming up next, were live at the Supreme Court following two major cases. One of trumps travel ban. The other on gay rights. Youre watching velshi ruhle on msnbc. Fibromyalgia may be invisible to others, but my pain is real. Fibromyalgia is thought to be caused by overactive nerves. Lyrica is believed to calm these nerves. Im glad my doctor prescribed lyrica. For some, lyrica delivers effective relief for moderate to even severe fibromyalgia pain. And improves function. Lyrica may cause serious allergic reactions, suicidal thoughts or actions. Tell your doctor right away if you have these, new or worse depression, unusual changes in mood or behavior, swelling, trouble breathing, rash, hives, blisters, muscle pain with fever, tired feeling, or blurry vision. Common side effects dizziness, sleepiness, weight gain, swelling of hands, legs and feet. Dont drink alcohol while taking lyrica. Dont drive or use machinery until you know how lyrica affects you. Those whove had a drug or alcohol problem may be more likely to misuse lyrica. With less pain, i can do more with my family. Talk to your doctor today. See if lyrica can help. [burke] abstract accident. Seen videoit. Covered it. C we know a thing or two because weve seen a thing or two. We are farmers. Bumpadum, bumbumbumbum theyre hearing arguments in a major gay rights case with farreaching implications. The question is whether a baker in colorado had a right under the First Amendment to refuse baking a wedding cake for a samesex couple. It makes the decision of whether businesses can turn away customers based on their beliefs. He says he cannot be forced to make a cake that violates his religious beliefs. Pete joins us from the Supreme Court. Pete, this is a far reaching nuance than people realized. On the one hand, people would say this baker shouldnt refuse this couple getting married. But on the flip side, what if this baker was in new york city and the ku klux klan wanted a cake for something they were celebrating. This is more complicated than it seems. Reporter youre right about that. This involves the colorado human rights amendment that says you cant turn down people based on religion, gender, sexual orientation. Im not sure what the ku kl Ku Klux Klans protection would be, so i think the answer to that on the side of the couple is there is no personal interest so the baker could turn them down because the law doesnt cover them. Youre right, this is a case of whatifs. Simple facts. A couple walks into this bakery in southern denver and said, we want a cake to celebrate our marriage, and the baker said, im sorry, but it violates my religious beliefs. They didnt ask for a certain design, he just said, im sorry, i cant help you. Those are the facts. Thas ca this is a case of whatifs. The lawyer for the baker says this is an artist and therefore this would violate his right of Free Expression of his religious beliefs. What about the hairstylists, the people who write the wedding invitation, that sort of thing . And they say, what if we are the catholic religious service and see we want to turn down someone getting a k in a catholic dise because theyre a samesex couple . Justice kennedy is two justices in one. Hes the one that has written all the courts gay marriage rulings, but hes also one of the strongest proponents of First Amendment rights. Frankly, we saw both Anthony Kennedys today. During the first half of the argument he said, what if the baker put up a sign in the bakery that says, we dont bake cakes for samesex marriage, would that be an affront to the samesex people . I dont know how this will come out, but youre right, its a f farreaching nuance. Well be back with Pete Williams outside the courthouse. Stay with us. Youre watching velshi ruhle. So thats the idea. What do you think . Hate to play devils advocate but. I kind of feel like its a game changer. I wouldnt go that far. Are you there . Hes probably on mute. Yeah. Gary wont like it. Why . Because hes gary. phone ringing what . Keep going yeah. laughs voice on phone its not millennial enough. There are a lot of ways to say no. Thank you so much. Thank you so were doing it. Yes we got a yes start saying yes to your companys best ideas. Let us help with money and knowhow, so you can get business done. American express open. 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Time now for monumental americans celebrating people who might deserve a statue of their own. Today its harry hay, owner of the founder of the gay movement. He was born in 1912 in england. In 1930s, he worked in the Labor Movement and worked on gay rights. In 1950 he founded one of the first Gay Rights Group in the united states, an underground mens association, called the mattachine society. In 1979 he worried that the radical movement was losing steam and becoming too violent. He discovered the radical faeries movement. Along with his partner john burnside, he also fought for american gay rights. He died in 2002 at 90 years old. Ufrif you have a monumental american, email us. Now we go to andrea mitchell. They power money into roy moores campaign, ignoring child molestation accusations in order to keep that senate seat. Hes upset the people of alabama now. Its a numbers game. I want american republicans to maintain control. Congress