this letter which is dated today is written from president trump's attorney to judge wood who will be overseeing a very high stakes hearing tomorrow in new york about all those ver sensitive materials that were seized by the fbi in the raid of michael cohen's office, of his hotel room and his home as well as the seizure of his phones and this is something that i don't think has ever been said before, at least not to to my knowledge on the news. the president of the united states is offering to make himself personally available for any review or screening of the evidence that the fbi seized of his lawyer. it's an unusual offer to say the least and with that let me get right to a well assembled panel. senator richard blumenthal, former senator byron dorgen and eugene robinson from the "the washington post" which has broken some of these stories your colleagues have. i'll go down the line.
dealer's choice on which aspects of this you want to speak to and, senator, your view of what appear to be a lot of developments on the trump side of the ledger in this investigation right now tonight. >> well, this "the washington post" report assuming its true is extraordinary because it shows that the president is becoming even more entangled and embroidered in the cohen aspect of this investigation. it has been thought that it was separate, but obviously the president has been deeply concerned and fearful about it, and now apparently he's taking steps to involve himself personally and possibly waiving any claim of attorney/client privilege that you might have here. >> you just made an important observation that i'd like you to expand upon, this matter was referred by bob mueller to new york because it was separate and jurisdictionally distinct from the open russia probe. what you're saying is this letter, you got a lot of stuff
giuliani held. reading from "the washington post" tonight, they cite three sources to say that julie an any as a new personal lawyer on behalf of the president has met with special counsel bob mueller, not his aides. this was as recently as tuesday to reopen, quote, negotiations according to three people. why would ruddy in your view be opening that investigation? >> i don't know. i doubt that he'll ever be interviewed. mr. cohen is the holder of the secrets, self-described, he believes that and says that publicly and the president's actions underscore that the president believes that trump -- that mr. cohen is the holder of the secrets here. we'll see. this reminds me of one of those -- the maze in a corn field. it's easy to get in but you can't find your way out. that's the case for the president. very hard to find his way out of this because there's so many different features to it. >> gene robinson, classic cornfield maze situation. >> it is, obviously.
on other matters than the criminal defense team when in the nda litigation, there were questions about his time and availability, he said he's not available for depositions, he's not going to be personally involved. this obviously a very different stance. seth waxman a former federal prosecutor we've just added to the conversation. what does this mean to you? >> i think that clearly these can be conflating these issues. you have the president of the united states who's now going to need to take time to answer questions with his lawyer and decide whether this material is privileged, so as we all may know, the privilege belongs to the client, not the attorney, so if there are emails in there, for example, with mr. trump sending mr. cohen to russia, to open a trump tower in moscow, on the face of that, that doesn't seem to be privilege. that sounds like a business transaction, so mr. trump's going to need to explain to his lawyers how that could be seeking legal advice because if it's not, it's not privileged. >> let me read a little more
just from the letter and go back around the horn again. this is brand-new, seth. the firm here -- they're speaking on behalf of the president tonight. our own associates are well-qualified. they hail from the country's best law schools and work directly with partners on the firm. awe reference to their ability to go through this material they want before the feds have it with regard to the attorney/client privilege that the president may have and they say, our client, that's donald trump, will make himself available as-needed to aid in our privilege review on his behalf. what does that even mean, seth? would that be donald trump and michael cohen and these other lawyers sitting around in new york looking ougat old emai? >> these are associates and more junior attorneys doing the initial scrub, getting rid of the chafe and all the emails that are noncontroversial and when you get down to the ones that, you know, are damaging or, you know, have some questions as to the privilege, someone's going to need to compile what we call in our world key documents,
walk them over to the president and present them to him and walk through how these documents are privileged or not privileged, and if there's evidence of a crime in some of those emails -- >> i don't want to put too fine a point on it, but i'm not sure in this instance the client would be the final word on the legal privilege? >> he clearly would not. ultimately that would be up to the special master and the judge but his lawyers are going to need to put a claim in front of that master or the judge or it's for naught. what was the legal purpose of these emails or the best person i should say is the president? >> in your view is this weird? >> it is weird. it is definitely weird. i've done this with ceos and i will tell you, there is nothing worse than a lawyer having to get the time of a fortune 500 ceo.
their eyes glaze over and they've got more important things to do. i can only imagine the more important things that the president of the united states needs to do, but obviously he's injecting himself because there's something very important to him in this process. >> let me go back down the line. this also goes to the case that the feds were making against michael cohen which is a little awkward because they are federal prosecutors from the trump justice department. they do that job without fear of favor. their point which goes to why they don't think there's a lot of privilege here, whether mr. trump, donald trump, president trump wants to review this material or not, they say michael cohen doesn't do a lot of lawyering? >> exactly. from all the reporting i've seen, what michael cohen did for donald trump was basically two things. he was a deal maker and he was a fixer. but in terms of, you know, representing him in court, giving him legal advice as opposed to advise on a deal or advice on solving a problem like
stormy daniels, you know, which i there are aspects of that maybe could be privileged, i don't know. you're the lawyer. he want, you know, a lawyer all the time he was dealing with donald trump. he was an aide. >> ari, because of the role that cohen played in donald trump's life for a long, long time, i think everybody understands there's potential jeopardy here and my guess is, is that the trump organization, the lawyers will fight this and battle this on and on as long as they can. there's potential jeopardy for the president and i think they know it. >> this kind of action creates a maze, but even more it's legal quicksand for the president, because coming back to the point where we began, the southern district of new york has rated michael cohen's office for money laundering, potential bank fraud, really serious stuff supposedly not involving the
president. now the president is injecting himself into the this case because he fears he may be involved in it. it's legal quicksand for him and my legal advice is worth what he's paying for it, but this kind of involvement, although perhaps typical of his hands-on attitude toward this stuff, really joins him with michael cohen in what has been a separate legal action, but it also indicates maybe he has some exposure and it also potentially makes him a witness in any proceeding involving attorney/client privilege because once he's reviewed these documents and once his lawyers are quoting him, he stands to be called as a witness. >> right. the flip side, gene robinson if you talk to people who are most sympathic would be the argument that this is a sitting president and people around him should not be pursued on any contextual basis just to get stuff on him. >> okay. >> so you can imagine if you want to imagine a different
president and a different privilege, imagine a doctor, and you say the doctor's up for some some maybe real crime but does that mean they can go through the president's medical files willy-nilly before someone else gets involved? >> you could make that argument, but you could -- you also make the argument that federal prosecutors cannot look away if they see potential criminal activity by somebody who has been very close to the president, like michael cohen, and indeed, the prosecutors in southern district of new york are not going to look away and robert mueller's not going to look away. >> let me just make the point that the entire referral to new york was based on belief that there probably was a crime committed. that's the basis of the referral. >> the warrant is based on a finding that there was a crime. there has to be a crime committed and then that evidence is not only there in cohen's office and home and hotel room but that it's potentially in danger of destruction or other kinds of obstruction.
>> that an independent judge reached the determination you just mentioned knowing this is a sitting president's lawyer. it's no small thing. i want to bring seth waxman into it now. the only reason that "the washington post" is breaking this story is they feel firm about it, i can tell you bob mueller's personal negotiations, the things that are important enough that he sits down and you see the headline breaking right now, rudy giuliani opens negotiations with interview with mueller. that headline is really interesting, seth, because it's got a lot of -- talk about attorney/client privilege, it's got a lot of very private material packed into a depiction of what's going on and i want to read from a former doj official, matt miller who many of our viewers know. he's responding to this right now posting on twitter, congratulations to julie an any on doing a good job professionalizing the trump legal team that it took a full
24 hours for your snoerkss to mueller to leak to the press. speak to that angle of critique. >> all defense would prefer this stay behind closed doors. if this is already being leaked out to the public, that's not ideal for the defense side. i agree with mr. miller there, but we're heading down the same path it seems we were about a month or two ago, where we're heading towards this conflict between mueller and mr. trump, the president in this under oath testimony and that is fraught with all kinds of perils. i still question whether he's actually going to do that and really his only way out is to plead the fifth. mr. rudy giuliani carries a lot of wait and has a lot of credibility and the mayor, but at the end of the day he's not going to be able to prevent the president from silt not guilty that room. the only thing that can do that is the fifth amendment. >> this story is breaking right now if viewers look on the bottom of the screen. we're crediting "the washington post" which broke the julie an
any story, the reporter from the "the washington post" who broke that story has called into the beat, carol, what can you tell us about your sourcing on this, how you got to this point and what its significance is? >> so i don't want to talk at all about the sourcing for this, but i will say that i enjoy matt miller's commentary but i don't appreciate him saying that it was some great failure on the part of the defense that this story got out. it got out because of reporting and i would also just say that the significance from our vantage point covering this probe is that now you have finally in the helmsman position a lawyer leading the trump defense and reopening these talks where they were a month and a half ago, which is will the president sit down voluntarily for an interview with bob mueller who is now seeking, quite clearly, to know did the president have any
corrupt intentions when he took certain actions as the president and as the president-elect? did he have any corrupt intention to thwart a criminal probe? >> i don't think matt miller's observation is about the quality of your reporting, but there are different ways things come out and i think -- >> oh, no, no. i'm being tongue in cheek. i enjoy matt immensely. >> i think what raises is, when you refer to your sourcing, obviously i don't mean the identification of your sourcing, i read this story as you're very confident in your sourcing that these meetings are taking place, they involve a presidential interview and rudy giuliani, according to your reporting, is reflecting a type of road where the client, the president, is still quote/unquote, resistant to the idea of this interview but it is back on the table. tell us about that. >> so, i think a couple things are going on.
one, rudy is getting his sea legs in this case. he just arrived as of last week and so he wants to meet the person who's prosecuting/investigating this matter to size up a case and also size up the probe, like what is it exactly that mueller still needs and wants before he completes what we've described as a partial report on his findings about obstruction. the other thing that's going on here is that ever since a raid at the home and office of michael cohen, one of the president's closest confidentants and his personal attorney, the president has deeply soured on the idea of sitting down with mueller's team. why is that? because he felt really caught off guard as did most of the trump legal defense team, how could this have happened without them knowing. the mueller's team is not leading that investigation. you'd have to be kind of naive
to believe that there isn't going to be a day when mueller wants to interview michael cohen about his behavior and interactions with the campaign and particularly in trying to talk to any russians that might have wanted to connect with the campaign as well. >> i want to ask you and seth the hardest question in the land these days, which is what does bob mueller thinking? but you notice in reading your story and i'll go to you first carol and then seth, as you were just referencing, you said the special counsel emphasizes the interviews essential to understand trump's intent in making key decisions as they try to wrap up the portion of the probe focused on potential obstruction. your report reflects the notion of this case moving in two parts and mueller making a play for an interview on the obstruction part but anyone that's been around a tough prosecutor knows
that what you say to get someone in the chair isn't always the beginning, middle and end that happens during the interview. your view and then seth. >> well, yes, of course. you'll be calm and quiet and smiling as you ask a witness to come and sit down and chitchat with you, but you've also seen as the president's lawyers have seen everyone who's sat down in that chair has some jeopardy and there have been quite a few who have now either been charged or have pled guilty to lying to investigators and once you sit in that chair and whether you're under oath or not, you could put yourself in increased danger. that is what trump's former lead lawyer warned the president over and over again. john dowd said, mr. president, all respect, you have to consider that you're jeopardy is low now and you will unnaturally and unnecessarily increase it by agreeing to an interview. >> seth?
>> yeah, i can tell you i think bob mueller and his team are licking their chops. this is what prosecutors wait for, the opportunity to cross examine and question the target or at least in this case we know subject of their investigation and in those circumstances which mr. trump has been in before in the sense of depositions, but nothing is like sitting in a room with a bunch of federal prosecutors and fbi agents not knowing where they're going, not knowing exactly what documents they have and sitting there for hours and hours answering questions. and the last point i'd make, while this idea of obstruction may be out there and maybe that's being dangled as an idea to get him in the room, i find it highly questionable that mr. mueller would stop at that point and not investigate or question him on the underlying crime -- potential underlying crime which is the conspiracy between the russians and the trump campaign to announce the 2016 election or at least the allegations of that. so in my opinion, if mr. trump walks into that room everything
is on the table and those prosecutors -- >> i'm going to break in because i'm holding a new document followed by trump lawyer michael cohen within the last five minutes and it says based on the advice of counsel, michael cohen, quote, i will assert my fifth amendment rights in connections with all proceedings in the stormy daniels case due to, he says, the ongoing criminal investigation by the fbi and the u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. again, if you're just joining us, trump lawyer michael cohen asserting in writing in court for the first time, he will plead the fifth. something that you do because on the advice of counsel or based on what you know about what you've done, you don't want to confess to a crime. seth? >> of course he is. of course he is. you have a federal prosecution or investigation centering in on you. your home, your apartment, your hotel room has been raided and you've got some civil lawsuit out there. i know in the context of this case that civil lawsuit is getting all kinds of attention but a civil proceeding is far, far down the line and in degrees
of importance when your life and your liberty are at stake in the southern district of new york. so, of course, he's pleading the fifth because he has to do everything he can to protect himself right now. >> senator blumenthal, your reaction. >> speaking as a former federal prosecutor, i think donald trump's position in doing an interview is completely different from michael cohen. michael cohen can plausibly plead the fifth amendment. his office has been raided after finding of a crime. the connection -- >> to that end and i'll pass the mic back to you, in the same sworn statement michael cohen says on april 9th the fbi executed three search warrants on my residents, office and hotel room without prior notice during the corresponding raids, michael cohen says and this is breaking right now, the fbi seized my electronic devices and my possession which were relate to information about the payment to stormy daniels and then he goes on to say, on april 10th i first realized my fifth amendment rights were being
implicated as i considered the events of april 9th which backs up the point you're making. >> the material and letter that we've just discussed links donald trump to michael cohen, but donald trump cannot just automatically and unboundedly reject a request to be interviewed because in my view the investigation cannot close without bringing donald trump into an interview or a subpoena for him to appear before the grand jury. i think special counsel must subpoena the president. >> in your view of carol's reporting here that's breaking this hour, mueller views it as quote essential? >> it is essential. donald trump not only should be interviewed, and if he's subpoena he has a right to the fifth amendment. as we've all told clients and juries, the fifth amendment
itself, if invoked is not an admission of guilt but for donald trump, the american public would see it as an acknowledgement of criminal culpability pleading the fifth amendment. >> i'm seldom surprised any more by anything. i'm not necessarily surprised by mr. cohen taking the fifth amendment as i indicated, the reference of the case to the u.s. attorney in new york was because there was a notion there was crime or crimes involved. so i'm not surprised by the fifth amendment issue here but of cohen taking the fifth amendment. i say that he is the one person in this country who poses very significant jeopardy because he's the keeper of the secrets and i think president trump knows that and that's a significant problem for him. >> gene? >> so my understanding is michael cohen says he will take the fifth amendment in the proceedings involving stormy daniels, correct? but in at some point, one presumes, the prosecutors from
the southern district of new york will want to speak with him about whatever it was they were raiding his office and home -- >> typically at this stage, they would either want to speak to him or they would go ahead and indict an individual without speaking to him. >> right. one question is, does this intention to take the fifth cover that as well given the reference in the letter to the events of april 9th, but it doesn't seem too specifically -- look, his -- one's options after a federal prosecutor and the fbi have raided your hotel room, home and office and seized a bunch of documents that they think indicate some crime that you're guilty of, you're options are constrained. they're very narrow and you'll have to decide whether you're going to try to tough it out in some way or are you going to
cooperate. >> to gene's point, we're getting a lot of paper as we go. this is the pleading from michael cohen. this is the first time the president's lawyer has sworn to a court that he will plead the fifth in any matter. this matter is him saying explicitly based on the advice of counsel, i'll assert my fifth amendments rights in connections in this, stormy daniels case. so it's about this. it doesn't tell us about the rest. as some of our experts have noted tonight, if you're pleading a fifth in the civil case, you're concerned about the bigger encha lada. now i bring to join -- our whole panel stays. i bring on an even bigger fish. thank you for being part of what is now our breaking coverage. i know you've been listening in to our esteemed panel. your reaction to this news? >> i think we've been in the same lane on this all along and people have watched this thing play out. all we see on twitter is no collusion and witch hunt. so a logical person would say,
if there's no collusion and this is all a witch hunt, why wouldn't you sit down with robert mueller and answer all the questions he has if you're completely innocent? and last week when he was saying, cohen's not going to flip on me, well f you're not guilty of anything, why are you worried about anybody flipping on anything? i'm just sort of amused that rudy giuliani has become involved in this process because if you live in new york city and you've watched this guy and his image shrink to the size of a jockey over all the years since 9/11, i'm not sure if i were in some kind of jam i would want him to try to plead my case in the people's court on television, but again, if this president is innocent, if there is no collusion, if his campaign did nothing wrong, why is he resistant to sitting down with the special counsel? >> so, mike, you're raising the point that donald trump online, on twitter talks tough about his defenses, but then you're saying
offline he doesn't appear ready to actually deal with the questions from mueller, is that what you're saying? >> yes. >> and this is -- this is sort of a drake critique where he says some people don't really be the same offline, is that what you're saying about the president? >> don't try to trick me with that stuff, okay, because i'm easily tricked with music lyrics. i've watched this thing play out -- >> do you feel like a witness in this probe? you're worried the questions are tricks? >> yeah. but i don't have to sit down with mueller, he does. >> well speak to the "the washington post" reporting. "the washington post" has broken the bombshell that rudy giuliani didn't just join the team he went and did a one-on-one with bob mueller and is telling mueller i'm trying to get you this interview but i can't get my client, the president, donald trump to do it yet. >> i don't know why -- it's interesting to me that rudy giuliani has this meeting -- this notion that he's like holding some cards here. mueller's holding all the cards,
okay. obviously he wants to sit down with the president and get answers to all the questions he has waited over a year to ask him, but if this is some -- ari, you have to explain to me because you're a lawyer. in a negotiation like this, what does rudy giuliani have if his own client is resistant to having this meeting? >> you raise a great question. always helpful that i don't have to moderate as much. let's ping your question around the panel. senator blumenthal, speak to that question. >> it's a great question and what he has is not so much a legal position as a political one, the president of the united states is the president. he has enormous power and also enormous persuasion through his twitter account, his base, his following in the united states congress and the special
counsel. here's a important point, continues to be under threat from the president of the united states who twice has tried to fire him. that's why the judiciary committee tomorrow will consider and you hope pass legislation that protects the special counsel against firing. that question is very timely. >> i want to take that question and pursue it of the i also want to play something that's coming just into our newsroom which is the legal opponent to michael cohen in all of this say man named michael avenatti who viewers have seen on television. he has spoken out about this. do we have this? this was after last week but the point stands. i think we're seeing what he predicted basically come to fruition with the toxicity of mr. cohen. let's listen to that. >> he is radioactive, anyone that had any contact with this man in the last 20 years should be very concerned about what secrets of theirs are within these documents. >> this can look like bluster and i've mentioned this when we
cover mr. avenatti as well as when he's in the studio, senator, which is he has a very clear stake in this and he's an opponent to mr. cohen. having said that, it is, as we reflect on all of this, it is stormy daniels and the attempt to silence women and mr. cohen's role as a fixer and his fight with mr. avenatti and her client that helped get us to this point that we're in tonight? >> it's drip, drip, drip and then it becomes a gusher. i guess you don't want him as i was watching him on television the last couple of weeks, you don't want him as an opponent in my judgment and with respect to the rudy giuliani piece, mike's description of the image becoming the image of a jockey, shrinking to the image of a jockey, i think the choice of rudy giuliani to represent trump is byzantine. >> what do you mean by that, sir? >> i'm not sure i know what i mean, ari.
>> are you saying in a nice way that it's a bad choice? >> yes. >> okay. i understand that. >> or not so nice way, perhaps. >> you think it's probably a bad choice. maybe he's the only one that can talk to trump and make him make sense. in that case -- in that sense maybe it's a good choice, remember it's been a while, since rudy giuliani has practiced law in this way. he has been basically a political figure. >> it's almost like is it trump's lawyers or is it former lawyers who are back working for trump? >> maybe it's just me, i would want somebody who's at the top of his game. >> who's in the game. >> exactly. if you have to have an operation you want a surgeon who does it all the time, has done it recently, but if the surgeon says, well, i did that ten years ago and i think i remember how, i don't want that surgeon. >> i agree. i agree. >> there are really serious
capable criminal trial lawyers who will evaluate every legal question, have great instincts and gut because they're in the courtroom day after day and rudy giuliani simply is not one of them, but if you take the president's vetting of his cabinet secretary and his most recent nominee, the v.a. secretary, who is about to almost certainly go down, there's no clear path for ronny jackson to become the next v.a. secretary, the level of vetting and review and scrutiny and consideration has been pretty abysmal. >> so you just broadened it to where we are tonight, which is breaking news that some of the people that this president has picked off the tv screen, off the conservative political wagon, out of the green rooms at fox news as well as down the hall because it was his doctor down the hall, so put him in
charge of all veterans health care, don't vet him, all of this together is a portrait of a person who has been pretending to be a chief executive for much of his life and performing in that way obviously endeared him to some people. the apprentice was a highly watched show that pretended to be about a business but it was pretend. we're seeing the holes in that when it actually gets real and then you put that alongside the messages that he's sending to michael cohen so for both of our guests, seth and luke, take a listen to donald trump's reaction when he was asked about the pardon idea for michael cohen this week. >> what about michael cohen? are you considering a pardon? >> thank you very much. >> stupid question. >> seth, what do you think about that response? >> well, the pardon is always been the x factor in this case. in a normal, criminal case with
the evidence against paul manafort, one would have thought he would have already flipped much like mr. gates. why hasn't he flipped? the reporter who asked that question is asking a very relevant question and mr. trump's deflection of that or refusal to answer it may beg the question of more about the pardon than it answers. i've always thought that the pardon question in this matter, whether it's for paul manafort or michael cohen and the pardons that he's now issued to scooter libby is really the x factor that no criminal defense lawyer or criminal prosecutor can really answer because it's something that only the president of the united states holds the power to do and the only constraint in my mind on that pardon power is obstruction of justice, and that would be ultimately in my opinion something that would be decided by the congress in an impeachment proceeding. that is outside the normal courtroom that all the lawyers that are talking and speaking on tv and representing these players really have ever been
involved in. >> and that's where a lot of the questions go and why the president is unlike any other client. if you're joining the beat we have been covering over half an hour straight of breaking news with rudy giuliani meeting with bob mueller promising a presidential interview saying he will plead the fifth on the grounds he might incriminate himself in the stormy daniels as well as the news breaking here that president trump says he will personally get involved in the michael cohen case by reviewing materials to avoid the feds having them because of alleged attorney/client privilege. all of that here in the last half hour or so. my special thanks to a special panel. we've really benefitted from your incites on what is a breaking story. can't make it up if it's breaking. we have a lot more in the show including the stuff we actually were planning to do tonight, a big test for the trump travel ban, the supreme court, the executive director of the aclu is here with arguments about whether trump's own words hurt his case.
>> this is a watered down version and let me tell you something, i think we ought to go back to the first one and go all the way. >> that's not all. former dnc chair donna brazile with her first live interview on television since the big dnc lawsuit. i'm ari melber, you're watching a special washington edition of the beat on msnbc. roundup for lawns has arrived to put unwelcome lawn weeds to rest. so draw the line. roundup for lawns is formulated to kill lawn weeds to the root without harming a single blade of grass. roundup, trusted for over forty years.
ancestrydna has 5x more detail ...and it's now on sale for just $59. it can lead you on an unexpec ted journey... ...to discover your heritage. get ancestrydna for just $59. the lowest price of the year.
ah. oh hello. that lady, these houses! yes, yes and yes. and don't forget about them. uh huh, sure. still yes! xfinity delivers gig speed to more homes than anyone. now you can get it, too. welcome to the party. we are back on the beat with breaking news tonight. michael cohen, the president's lawyer pleading the fifth for the first time as well as rudy giuliani reportedly meeting with bob mueller personally this week to discuss reopening negotiations for a presidential interview between mueller's team and donald trump, a high stakes gambit from the new member of donald trump's criminal defense team. let's turn immediately here in washington to donna brazile. >> hello there. >> nice to see you, you are someone who figures into all of this because your name arose in the 2016 matters that are under
criminal investigation. you also are an experienced washington hand. what does it say to you that rudy giuliani is trying to take this tact and michael cohen at the same time is pleading the fifth? >> there's no question, i think, that the trump team is in panic mode. they are reaching out now to try to, you know, get this investigation to end. the cloud is not just over them but the cloud is now, i believe, hurting their ability to get out their message every day. you see with rudy giuliani trying to wrap this up. he said he could wrap it up in two weeks, really? and now mr. trump's personal attorney pleading the fifth. this is not going to wrap it up. the cloud is not going to move away. i do believe much more is going to come. >> what is your evidence of panic? >> panic by reaching out to rudy giuliani and not a more experienced lawyer in terms of handling matters like this, and also i think, you know, mr. trump said in the past, he said
why plead the fifth if you're innocent. i mean, i don't -- i don't get why michael cohen is now pleading the fifth. >> let me read that quote. myself as an attorney, i know people have all kinds of rights and i don't prejudge their invocation of those rights, but that's just me. you're referring to the president's standard and whether his lawyer is following the president's standard because he said, quote, the mob takes the fifth amendment. if you're innocent, why are you taking the fifth amendment and he added, when you have your staff taking the fifth amendment, i think it's disgraceful. >> i remember that quote because i remember how donald trump went after not just hillary clinton but he went after democrats, he went after ordinary people, so for his personal lawyer in a case that i think has great huge ramifications for the overall situation that he's facing, to take the fifth doesn't seem to be a good strategy. >> i'm going to push you on something. you worked with the clintons.
donald trump trying to avoid this interview. >> um-hum. >> bill clinton, as you recall, spent quite a bit of time fighting off whether he would ever do an interview with then independent counsel ken starr. is it within a sitting president's rights to fight and potentially withhold their interview? >> you know, this is a different situation as you recall what happened back in the '90s with bill clinton, i was actually on capitol hill at the time, but the president it go forward and do the interview. i understand and i'm not a lawyer like you, you understand lawyers are saying, you don't walk into a room because this is a trap and you don't know what can happen but the director is trying to get at the heart of what happened in 2016 and as well as this so-called obstruction issues. i think the president owe it to the american people to sit down and say, look, here's what i know. i had no idea that manafort was having these back room conversations or my son went into these meetings or other
officials identified with my campaign. why not just come forward so that we can get to the bottom of what happened in 2016? >> let me make an observation about you that some of our viewers may not know. you're not only persuasive, donna, i have seen you be persuasive with people with whom you disagree, with conservatives, with republicans up at harvard. take us inside the process of rudy giuliani doing what political people do trying to persuade donald trump actually, i just met with mueller this week, all brand-new, and it's in our interest, if we want to wrap it up quickly, the fastest thing we can do is sit and do this interview. do you think with your knowledge of these players that rudy has any hope of moving, persuading trump? >> i think donald trump believes in his own abilities. he believes in himself so i'm sure he's the one sitting in a room, i can teake care of this,i can solve this. this is a guy that's not lacking in confidence. on the other hand, you need some
legal ability or some legal advice as to whether or not the president might be walking into what some of his friends and colleagues are saying, a trap, i don't really know because i don't know what the president -- >> does rudy appeal to his confidence and say you got this? >> i think he appeals -- mr. president, you have something to give to this investigation, go forward, but if not, let's just let this investigation wrap up. >> now i want to turn to the reason we did invite you on the show tonight. we've had so much breaking news. when there was a watergate break n the democratic party responded with a lawsuit against the alleged perpetrators. >> that's correct. >> this party of which you have been a leader in many forms is now doing that, and it's easy to forget because so much is going on. >> right. >> those moments at the very pivotal period in the convention when these emails were weaponized and they may have exposed as we pointed out on air very important things, let's
look back at when you were actually the person brought in because the other chair was ousted partly over outrage over these emails. >> that's correct. >> as your north korincoming che national democratic committee, i promise you my friends, i commit to all americans that we will have a party that you can be proud of. >> that phone call went to you, they needed you. what do you know now that you didn't know then and why do you believe this lawsuit is important? >> you know, at the end of the 2016 campaign, i was quite worried that nobody, not the media, not our public officials would address what had happened to the dnc and of course others. we put together a very concrete timeline of the incident. we gave it to certain members of the media, but we also went to
outside counsel to seek their advice. before leaving the dnc i had an outside law firm draft up a complaint but we didn't have enough information. we now -- >> this complaint in your view started all the way back when. >> back in the -- soon after the election. in january and february of 2017 -- >> so what was just filed originated then? >> this is a separate complaint because this complaint is a different law firm. the dnc has done a terrific job and not just outlying the agreejus offense that took place, we now have more information of what took place of the various individuals involved from the trump campaign and others who perhaps colluded or conspired with the russians to weaponize. we want this to come to justice to prevent this from happening again this election cycle. >> donna brazile, thank you for joining us. >> always a pleasure. what we'll do is fit in a quick break. the most significant test of
trump's presidential power to date happened today in washington. i'm going to tell you why when we're back in 90 seconds. biotene did make a difference. [heartbeat] the full value of your new car? you're better off throwing your money right into the harbor. i'm gonna regret that. with new car replacement, if your brand new car gets totaled, liberty mutual will pay the entire value plus depreciation.
liberty stands with you. liberty mutual insurance. but he's got work to do. with a sore back. so he took aleve this morning. if he'd taken tylenol, he'd be stopping for more pills right now. only aleve has the strength to stop tough pain for up to 12 hours with just one pill. tylenol can't do that. aleve. all day strong. all day long. check this sunday's paper for extra savings on products from aleve. today this the supreme court began deciding the most significant test of trump's power to date. trump's controversial travel ban hitting the court. this is a ban that began with all that chaos in the first month in office, confusion at the airports, protests and frustrations around the country. those memories are part of the
record the court scrutinized today. the problems at the airport turned into emergency lawsuits. i was actually out covering the first federal court to rule against the ban in new york, which blocked the ban on its first full day in effect. so that was the the unusual roae supreme court today. on "the beat" right now, we'll take you inside highlights from the court. and then turn to probably the best guest on this topic in the nation, national executive director of the aclu. his opponent today was a lawyer from the trump justice department who insists this wasn't a muslim ban. he argued if trump said that the whole thing would be illegal on its face. he referred to the illegitimacy of that kind of action. >> if the president did actually make that statement, i want to keep out a particular race or particular religion no matter what, that would und mine the facial legitimacy of the action. >> he is saying with facial legitimacy that would be illegal. trump did campaign on a muslim
ban. more on that in a moment. today the doj is arguing the court should look to the text of the ban, not past statements. critics of this ban put their faith in neil katia. he's been on this show. he said this is about more than discrimination. it's also about whether trump can steal power from congress. >> if you accept this order, you're giving the president a power no president in 100 years has exercised an executive proclamation counter mands congress's policy judgments. >> he's referring to how federal law already prohibits discrimination on religion or on what country you're from. and while the travel ban does target people by country, national origin, that would seem to conflict. so cattal was saying today even if this isn't a muslim ban, the court should not give trump the power to undo what congress did. >> he says well, we're
discriminating at the entry side, not at the visa side. if you do that, you are giving the president the power to undo. he's just done it. he's undone the ban on nationality based discrimination, imposed country quotas of zero for these countries at the border. >> saying congress legislated against bans on national origin so trump can't set a quota of zero without breaking that law. the trump doj argued the president has his own authority to make judgments about security and make exceptions. the supreme court has generally been skeptical of using campaign rhetoric to decide a case. consider a less controversial example. remember candidate obama said on the campaign trail that obamacare was not a tax. the supreme court put it to the side and upheld the law as a tax. my point is not that the travel ban is obamacare. the justice department though is arguing that the supreme court doesn't usually hold campaign rhetoric against presidents.
but there is a rebuttal for that. cattal saying he doesn't need candidate trump to show bias. he argued president trump rekindled all of that nasty rhetoric by tweeting out as president those virulent videos and he argued the white house doubled down on all of that by saying his tweets are official statements. >> after the executive order, this latest executive order was prom up gatd the president tweeted these three virulent anti-muslim videos. the spokes plan was asked what is this about. the answer was. >>. >> no controversy facing the president under fire both here and abroad this morning for sharing inflammatory anti-muslim videos on twitter. >> look, i'm not talking about the nature of the video. you're focusing on the wrong thing. the threat is real. that's what the president is talking about is the need for national security. >> that was the white house defending is those tweets that
were at issue in court today. it gets worse because the white house has said trump's tweets are official statements. >> are president trump's tweets considered official white house statements? >> well, the president is the president of the united states. so they're considered official statements by the president of the united states. >> does this all come down to what trump said and what he meant? do campaign speeches and tweets matser less than the words trump used in the ban itself? you know, miley cyrus once said if you mean it, i'll believe it. if you text it, i'll delete it. did donald trump really mean it when he pledged to ban muslims? we all heard him. and who decides if he can just delete that pledge of illegal religious discrimination 1234 is that his call or the court's? >> joining me now is anthony romero, executive director of the american civil liberties union who led the charge against the travel ban. you are part of this effort. it's been a resistance.
what do you think happened in the courtroom today? >> it's hard to guess. it's always hard to read tea leaves from the questions from the justices. there are two buckets of arguments in front of the court, the statutory arguments whether or not this proclamation runs afoul of the statute enacthe by congress and the constitutional arguments whether or not it have a violates protections under the first amendment, violates the establishment claus and freedom of religion. >> is it a religious ban. >> it is. it's a muslim ban. they had a lot of conversation talking around the elephant in the room. 150 million people affected by it. five predominant litmus him countries. they added on north korea and convenience to gussy up the pig. it's still a muslim ban. >> one of the most frustrating things about the law is how exclusionary it is towards anyone else.
it's hard for people to look at this process there today and understand why it's such a tough call for the judges to figure out whether there is a religious part of this, given what the president said and a national origin part as i was just discussing if it basically bans my country. >> and it should be pretty clear. it clearly is a ban based on national origin which runs afoul of the 1965 immigration nationalnality act. so the question is they be, neal katyal who did a great job arguing to the court took about how it took a wrecking ball to the way congress reject aid blanket ban and wanted to insys on individualized hearings with a granular process. >> do you think you're more likely to win on that grounds? >> i think it's one of the stronger grounds. the constitutional arguments, what does a reasonable think the executive order is? he campaigned on a muslim ban. he became president, he promised a muslim ban. he did 1.0 executive order which is clearly a muslim ban, 2.0
struck down, 3.0. >> neal katyal seed to hit his stride on the other part on the fight with congress part. you have a lot more legal experience than i do. it made me wonder whether there's something he thinks in terms of his strategy that he might win not on rjt you but on that way. >> neal understands the way to bring kennedy along. we'll make nel argument we can if we need to the convince kennedy. the arguments are very clear and runs afoul of the whole idea of the executive branch cannot trump congress and override the ina. >> let me play another important moment from inside the courtroom. there's been a lot of talking whether people will resign what trump does. jeff sessions reportedly threat he might on a mule ter issue. rod rosenstein talking about what would happen if he left, don mcgahn threatened to resign. who is left. here was that very idea in the travel ban context that came up in court. >> it was argued in a case this
week about the unitary executive theory, which basically says the president is at the head. if we take justice kagan's hypothetical president, who basically says to his review committee, i want to keep out jews, period, find a way. >> i would expect that if any cabinet member were given that order, that cabinet member would refuse to comply or resign in the face after plainly unconstitutional order. >> do you believe that's true, the doj saying that's how it would go down? >> absolutely not. come on. this is his administration. they will do his every bidding. they took a muslim ban clearly unconstitutional, they went through this entire process of the vetting, dropped two countries, added two countries, went through this whole screening just to gussy it up so the president could get his
muslim ban. who are we fooling? the reasonable observer watching this proclamation seeing the history of the statements, of the president, understands that this is exactly what he promised us. it's a muslim ban. 150 million muslims affected by it. 90 plus, 90 to 99% of the individuals affected by the ban are muslim. you can throw in venezuela just for good measure and just to gussy it up and the people of north korea which there's also a handful of people, at its core, it's a muslim ban and runs afoul of the constitution. >> anthony romero, on a big day for your organization, thanks for being here. appreciate it. >> of course and that is our broadcast. we came on the air and learned a lot of things including michael cohen is pleading the fifth, that donald trump will personally help go through michael cope's evidence and materials for attorney/client privilege and than rudy giuliani is still reopening negotiations from a potential donald trump/bob mueller interview. a lot on "the beat" live from

Related Keywords

Donald Trump , President , Letter , Attorney , Wood , New York , Materials , Stakes , Michael Cohen , Something , Office , News , Hotel Room , Home , United States , Fbi , Raid , Knowledge , Offering , Phones , Seizure , Lawyer , Richard Blumenthal , Evidence , Panel , Review , Screening , Offer , Least , The Washington Post , Some , Byron Dorgen , Stories , Colleagues , Down The Line , Eugene Robinson , Cohen Investigation , Lot , View , Side , Choice , Aspects , Dealer , Developments , Ledger , Aspect , It , Claim , Client Privilege , Matter , Bob Mueller , Stuff , Saying , Observation , Russia Probe , Special Counsel , Behalf , Sources , Aides , Reading , Three , People , Mr , Negotiations , Quote , Holder , I Dont Know , One , Secrets , Actions , Way , Stormy Daniels Case , Maze , Corn Field , Features , Classic Cornfield Maze Situation , Gene Robinson , Questions , Matters , Defense , Team , Depositions , Litigation , Availability , Nda , Seth Waxman , Prosecutor , President Of The United States , Issues , Conversation , Stance , Privilege , Emails , Material , Client , Example , Sending , Russia , Lawyers , Advice , Doesn T , More , Face , Trump Tower In Moscow , Business Transaction , Country , Firm , Associates , Law Schools , Around The Horn , Partners , Ability , Feds , Privilege Review , Awe Reference , Attorney Client Privilege , Junior Attorneys , Scrub , Nougat , Someone , Documents , Ones , World , Schafe , Point , Crime , Judge , Front , Word , Instance , Special Master , Master , Person , Purpose , Nothing , Ceos , Ceo , Fortune 500 , 500 , Process , Things , Line , Eyes , Job , Prosecutors , Case , Fear , Justice Department , Reporting , Lawyering , Favor , Federal Court , Terms , Problem , Fixer , Deal , Deal Maker , Two , Stormy Daniels , Jeopardy , Organization , Ari Melber , Life , Role , Guess , Aide , Everybody , Kind , Action , Quicksand , Southern District , Money Laundering , Bank Fraud , Worth , Involvement , Witness , Exposure , Attitude , Proceeding , Argument , Sympathic , Basis , Doctor , Presidents Medical Files Willy Nilly , Somebody , Criminal Activity , Referral , Belief , Obstruction Of Justice , Danger , Kinds , Finding , Warrant , Destruction , Thing , Determination , Rudy Giuliani , Story , Headline , Interview , Matt Miller , Whats Going On , Talk , Depiction , Viewers , Twitter , Congratulations , Many , Press , Behind Closed Doors , Critique , Public , Angle , Snoerkss , 24 , Path , Oath , Defense Side , Conflict , Testimony , Fifth , Perils , Credibility , Mayor , Wait , Fifth Amendment , Room , Bottom , Screen , Julie , Silt , The Beat , Reporter , Sourcing , Significance , Carol , Obstruction Part , Commentary , Failure , Probe , Position , Vantage Point , Helmsman , Sit , Half , Intention , Intentions , President Elect , Quality , Ways , Cheek , Tongue , Place , Meetings , Identification , Idea , Table , Type , Road , Unquote , Prosecuting , Sea Legs , Report , Findings , Confidentants , Defense Team , Trump , Knowing , Most , Guard , Campaign , Interactions , Behavior , Isn T , Question , Land , Decisions , Intent , Play , Anyone , Notion , Parts , Portion , Course , Yes , Chitchat , Everyone , Few , Sat , Investigators , Lead , Respect , John Dowd , Investigation , Opportunity , Circumstances , Target , Chops , Cross , Sense , Bunch , Agents , Everything , Opinion , Election , Conspiracy , Allegations , 2016 , Rights , Counsel , Document , Five , Time , Proceedings , Criminal Investigation , Connections , Us Attorney For The Southern District Of New York , Writing , Stormy Daniels Case Due To , Prosecution , Lawsuit , Context , Attention , Apartment , Degrees , Stake , Reaction , Senator , Liberty , Importance , Connection , Statement , Back To You , End , Notice , Raids , Search Warrants , Residents , April 9th , 9 , Information , Possession , Payment , Devices , 10 , April 10th , Events , Links , Cannot , Russia Investigation , Subpoena , Request , Unboundedly , Views , Quote Essential , Grand Jury , Clients , Right , Juries , Anything , Itself , Admission , Acknowledgement , Guilt , The American , Criminal Culpability Pleading The Fifth Amendment , Amendment , Crimes , Reference , Mule Ter Issue , Keeper , Presumes , Understanding , Individual , Stage , Cover , Options , Look , Paper , Pleading , Gene , It Doesn T , Amendments , Experts , Brest , Coverage , Listening , Fish , Panel Stays , Encha Lada , Collusion , Witch Hunt , Lane , Wouldn T , Anybody , Image , Guy , Jockey , Size , Jam , Peoples Court On Television , 9 11 , Defenses , Mike , Nothing Wrong , Drake Critique , Offline , Don T , Music Lyrics , Tricks , Didn T , Bombshell , Meeting , Cards , Negotiation , Answers , Ari , Let , Power , Persuasion , United States Congress , Account , Following , Base , Threat , Legislation , Judiciary Committee Tomorrow , All , Opponent , Television , Newsroom , Michael Avenatti , Firing , Who , Say Man , Fruition , Toxicity , Point Stands , Contact , Man , Bluster , 20 , Studio , Fight , Drip , Attempt , Women , Gusher , Judgment , Description , Piece , Sir , Law , Figure , Surgeon , Game , Top , Operation , Ten , Courtroom , Instincts , Trial , Gut , Ronny Jackson , Secretary , Vetting , Cabinet Secretary , Nominee , Va , Consideration , Scrutiny , Level , Breaking News , Hall , Rooms , Tv Screen , Fox News , Wagon , Charge , Chief Executive , Portrait , Health Care , Veterans , Dont Vet Him , Show , Messages , Business , Holes , Both , The Apprentice , Pardon , Pardon Idea , Guests , Listen , Luke , Factor , Response , Hasn T , Thought , Paul Manafort , Gates , Deflection , Pardon Question , Pardons , Refusal , Criminal Defense Lawyer , Constraint , Pardon Power , Mind , Scooter Libby , Players , Impeachment Proceeding , Tv , In , Beat , Michael Cohen Case , Grounds , Thanks , Incites , Arguments , Executive Director , Words , Supreme Court , Whether Trump , Aclu , Test , Trump Travel Ban , Planning , Dnc , Donna Brazile , Version , Go All The Way , Big Dnc Lawsuit , Special Washington Edition Of The Beat , On Msnbc , Roundup , Lawns , Lawn Weeds , Root , Blade Of Grass , Forty , Detail , Ancestrydna , Sale , Heritage , Price , Unexpec , Journey , 59 , 5 , Party , Houses , Homes , Gig Speed , Xfinity , Lady , Sure , Uh Huh , Member , High Stakes , Gambit , Washington , Name , Hand , Trump Team , Tact , Panic Mode , Cloud , Message , Panic , Handling , Staff , Invocation , The Mob , Democrats , Hillary Clinton , Fifth Doesn T , Situation , Strategy , Clintons , Ramifications , Facing , Bit , Bill Clinton , Um Hum , Ken Starr , Capitol Hill , 90 , Trap , Director , Heart , Back Room Conversations , Manafort , Son , Say , Obstruction Issues , Officials , Conservatives , Republicans , Harvard , Interest , Hope , Moving , Persuading Trump , Confidence , Abilities , Care , Sitting , Steake , Friends , Investigation Wrap Up , Appeals , Reason , Forms , Leader , Perpetrators , Watergate Break N , Convention , Chair , Outrage , Che National Democratic Committee , Phone Call , Media , Nobody , Members , Timeline , Others , Incident , Complaint , Law Firm Draft , Back , Law Firm , January , 2017 , February Of 2017 , Individuals , Trump Campaign , Offense , Agreejus , Justice , To Weaponize , Break , Pleasure , Election Cycle , Car , Value , Money , Harbor , Depreciation , Car Replacement , Difference , Heartbeat , Biotene , Liberty Mutual , Aleve , Tylenol , Work , Pills , Pill , Strength , Spain , 12 , Products , Savings , Isn Ta Muslim Ban , Part , Confusion , Airports , Protests , Frustrations , Chaos , Memories , Travel Ban Hitting , Which , Problems , Emergency Lawsuits , Roae Supreme Court , Airport , Scrutinized Today , Record , Effect , Nation , Topic , The Trump Justice Department , Guest , Wasn Ta Muslim Ban , Illegitimacy , Legitimacy , No Matter What , Muslim , Race , Statements , Neil Katia , Critics , Text , Faith , Discrimination , Order , Executive Proclamation Counter , 100 , Policy Judgments , Origin , Cattal , Ban , Country Quotas , Nationality , Visa , Countries , Quota , Judgments , Security , Border , Bans , Authority , Congress Legislated , Trump Doj , Zero , Campaign Rhetoric , Tax , Obama , Campaign Trail , Obamacare , Exceptions , Presidents , Travel Ban Is Obamacare , Supreme Court Doesn T , Department , Videos , Candidate Trump , Rebuttal , Rhetoric , Bias , Executive Order , Tweets , White House , Prom Up Gatd , Controversy , Answer , Fire , Spokes Plan , Video , Need , Nature , National Security , Campaign Speeches , Miley Cyrus , Pledge , 1234 , Anthony Romero , Effort , Resistance , Justices , Tea Leaves , Buckets , Proclamation , Protections , Statute Enacthe , Establishment Claus And Freedom Of Religion , Elephant , 150 Million , Him , Convenience , Anyone Else , Pig , North Korea , Judges , Call , Immigration Nationalnality Act , Neal Katyal , 1965 , Aid Blanket Ban , Hearings , Wrecking Ball , Insys , Think , 2 0 , 1 0 , Experience , Seed , Stride , 3 0 , Nel Argument , Vrjt , Kennedy , Cannot Trump Congress , Ina , Jeff Sessions , Rod Rosenstein , Travel Ban Context , Don Mcgahn , Review Committee , Head , Unitary Executive Theory , Justice Kagan , Cabinet Member , Cabinet , Jews , Administration , Come On , Bidding , Observer , History , Handful , Measure , Core , Venezuela , 99 , On The Air , Broadcast , Constitution , Potential , Michael Cope ,