Transcripts For MSNBCW The Week With Joshua Johnson 20200928

Time. The irs does not treat me well. It is important to note nbc news has not seen any of the documents related to this reporting. This has been a contentious topic for the president for years now. Hes fought hard for these very documents to not be released. The times said it obtained papers from people who were legally allowed to access them. Tonight well break down this reporting with nbc news colleagues and analysts who are well versed in mr. Trumps finances and his presidency. Well also hear from the president s former lawyer, michael cohen. And well discuss the significance of this reporting 37 days before the election. National polling shows the president is fighting an uphill battle against former Vice President joe biden. Lets begin this hour with james carville. Autoes a democratic strategist and msnbc political analyst. James, welcome. Thank you. Good to be here, joshua. What do you think is the top line of this report . Were talking about an extensive it prints out to 47 pages and theres a lot of detail her. What stood out the most from the report. The times says they will keep on reporting this. This is just the original story. Were going to have this another two or three weeks. When you combine that with awful polling numbers the president had this morning from polls that were coming in, national polls, statewide polls, battleground polls, you see this is a man under enormous stress. He knows hes going to lose the election. He knows hes in terrible legal jeopardy. In my opinion hes trying to negotiate a way he can leave with a pardon from new york state authorities and somehow live the rest of his life out in some kind of peace. But hes in a world of political trouble, and i suspect hes in a world of legal trouble here. Weve got more and more of this coming between now and not just the election but all the way past the election. I wonder what it looks like to you in terms of a political strat gid with joe biden. Well get more into the details of this economic report in a second. The debate is tuesday. This definitely changes the complexion of the debate. This may well change what the topics are, what Chris Wallace asks first. Joe biden has to make decisions about how he wants to message on this, between now and then, and how he wants to message a path forward should he become president in light of this reporting. What do you think is his best bet right new . So joshua, hes been setting this up. I dont think he knew the story was coming. It was like a working guy from scranton against a rich guy from manhattan. So hes been hammering hess kind of middle class themes home during the election. This is not new. This fits right into what joe biden has been saying. But ive noticed hes had a real focus on this kind of middle class message in his campaign in the moment of september. So i believe the people in wilmington are not just ecstatic by this story. You would expect to say this, but this is one of the best days a president ial campaign could possibly have and this story fits right into it while people around the country believe, apparently correctly, they are schmucks out there working, paying taxes, doing what they can to make ends meet and people take these writeoffs. He gives his taught money and he writes that off. Its just more and more analysis. Who knows where this is going to end but i cant imagine it ends in a very pretty place for President Trump. I really cant. I can also see republican strategists, member of the Trump Campaign, Republican Voters saying, see, this is just another attempt by the New York Times to tear down President Trump. They have been trying to do it for four years. The whole russia hoax, everything about they didnt listen to us about the russia hoax and Robert Mueller and peter strzok and all of these efforts to try to bring down President Trump. This is just a hail mary pass from democrats and liberal media cronies to bring down someone they know is going to win in november. First of all, New York Times as much as any institution helped elect President Trump. Thats a fact. The second thing is they are going to say that about anything that happens but this is something that the public had the suspicion of anyway. This confirms an existing suspicion that people have, is that rich people play by a different set of rules than they do. Thats why the story is going to hurt more than some of the other stories because they will sit there and say, yeah, we know they are right. Of course they are going to run against the times and against the fake news, but this is going to hurt. This gives joe biden if im joe biden, im so much more comfortable tuesday night with this story than i would be without it. You know, there will be pushback and screaming an yelling and gnashing of teeth and wailing and crying. But at the end of the day, this is a bad story for them, a really bad story. Let me pull out one piece of the report that stands out to me. Again, im reading directly from the New York Times report. Just to reiterate in case you missed the top of the program, were reporting from New York Times. Nbc news has not independently seen these documents. Were relaying results of New York Times report. One exert from the report reads, quote, while mr. Trump crisscrossed the country in 2015 describing himself as uniquely qualified to be president because he was, quote, really rich and had, quote, built a great company, his accountants back in new york were busy putting finishing touches on his 2014 tax return. After tabulating all the profits and losses from mr. Trumps various endeavors on form 440 accountants came to line 56 where they had to enter total income tax the candidate was required to pay. They needed space only for a single figure, 0. For mr. Trump that bottom line must look familiar. It was the fourth year in a row he had not paid a penny of federal income taxes. Jameses, what do you make of that passage. Washington post out of 22,211 lies. Thats just another one. No one is surprised by that. Again, were going to keep more and more, the story is going to keep on coming, because they are going to keep on pushing the story out. I go back to repeat myself, in politics on a preexisting thought of suspicion is proven right, that tends to be more damning. I think people sort of figured this was some version of this was true for a long time. Now, the times reporting is wrong and they are able to push back on it and show to the contrary they could come back but i dont think the New York Times is that stupid or careless or that lazy. I really dont. Ive had issues with the times over the years but they arent that dumb, not close. How do you avoid not muddying the message. So many things said about mr. Trump because he says so many things that require debunking and correcting. There are so many points the biden harris ticket will make about the vision if they were running the country instead of the trump pence ticket. How do you decide from a Strategic Perspective where to put your priority. Theres so much to hear right now. Its easy as a voter, even if youve picked your candidate, to be super overwhelmed. Thefy have been on this thin since september, biden a working guy, trump a manhattan millionaire, we had to have a realignment of power in the country where workers had more power and corporations less, rich people less and middle class people more. This fits right into it. What i like about this story, it makes that message, which i think is the winning message, much more attractive than anything else. This should give the Biden Campaign a real chance to hammer home that most essential part of that message, that working people, middle class people on the short end of the stick and people with bigtime account apartmenaccountants manipulate the books. For gods sake please dont get off this message, please dont get off of it. My plea. Stay on this message. Yes. Hammer it home, baby, hammer it home. Its kind of fascinating so much of what the president talked about tonight in his press briefing before and after he was asked about this report had to do with the media and some of the reporting thats been done. He was urging reporters to do more reporting on the investigation into the investigation over the campaigns alleged ties with russia. That was a big topic on some morning shows today and not others, lets leave it at that. He was talking about what the media was talking about. This report refers to the way his media appearances made him wealthy, particularly his seasons on the apprentice on nbc, which brought him a total, according to New York Times, 424. 7 million according to the analysis. James, before i let you go. This feels like a lot of this becomes the story of perception of media, whether the image that you see is actually the person thats there and of the man behind the curtain that maybe youre not supposed to see. Yeah. Maybe we need to talk to msnbc to see if we can get paid a little more. Teasing. You know, it will help. People dont like the media. It will excite some of the people. At the end of the day, this is a crushing story. People have been living with media attacks for a long, long time now. This is a new element. They will push back, and they will say its the liberal media and fake news but its going to penetrate. This is going to again, i come back to the general point, it fits right into what Vice President bidens current message is. They should be able to frame this thing and tee it up pretty good. Democratic strategist james carville, we appreciate you starting us off. Thank you very much. Thank you, josh. Love your show. Appreciate it. Thank you. Lets continue with political Reporter Josh Lederman. Josh, what can you tell us tonight . This is sending shock waves through the white house as they are reacting to this. Obviously the white house knew at least a little bit in advance that this story was going to be coming out because the reporters from the New York Times reached out to the white house for comment on it. The president saying he knew sort of generally this was coming but he didnt know exactly when this was going to drop. Weve heard the response from the white house tonight to essentially dismiss this with a blanket assertion of what the president called total fake news made up, but what we havent seen the president do is say specifically what hes actually disputing. When Nbcs Kelly Odonnell asked the president , okay, you say this is fake news, how much money did you actually pay in federal taxes in those years, the president declined to say. So he wont actually pesify what hes taking issue with. Another troubling part of this that were learning tonight, joshua, is about money that the president and his company continue to receive from overseas company while hes been in office. We remember the president committed during his presidency to not making any new overseas deals, some obvious potential, conflict of interest when hes running u. S. Diplomacy and matters of war and peace. What documents by the New York Times show that the president an his companies continued to receive about 73 million from business deals he had already under way in countries like the philippines, india, turkey. And i think there are two problematic storylines for the president. One is sort of what you were just discussing with james carville, which is this issue of fairness and this idea that i think youll hear from democrats that, you know, the average working class family out there that President Trump says hes fighting for is actually paying quite a bit more in federal taxes than the president is. At least if these documents from the New York Times and this reporting is true and we have no reason to believe its not, even though nbc as you mentioned has not independently seen that. The other potential problem point here, joshua, that i think could be even more tricky for the president in these last few weeks in the election has to do with the way hes viewed by his base. Theres a lot of people who are going to say is anyone really surprised that President Trump was the kind of person who would have finagled his legal documents and finances in a way that minimized paying federal taxes . What this puts a dent in is this notion of President Trump as this selfmade businessman, as somebody who through his own skills with business and deal making was able to amass all of this wealth. What this shows, according to these documents and these tax returns, is that at the same time President Trump was making the representation to the American People that he was making tons and tons of money because of his business prowess, he was telling irs that he was losing money hand over fist. I think that could be a problematic caricature of the president. Losses of 315 million at the golf courses he owned. His Washington Hotel opened in 2016 has shown losses of 55. 5 million through 2015. Trump corporation or Real Estate Services Company Reported losing 134 million since the year 2000. Apparently the president personally bankrolled the losses year after year. Josh lederman, its worth noting this has potentially got some concrete impacts in terms of the way Congressional Democrats are investigating the president. We got a statement tonight from richard neal, chairman of the house ways and Means Committee. They are trying to get the tax returns, too. After Supreme Court weighed in this july, it opened a new avenue for democrats to request the tax returns in a more precise, more specific way. This is not just about clearly about the image of the president , there could be some larger implications here. There absolutely could. Its not lost on us tonight, joshua, that prosecutors in new york have also been trying to get these documents for a long time. Theres been ongoing litigation there and major questions but whether they would be able to get these documents ahead of the election. We dont know whether they will be able to get it but the New York Times apparently did. This information one way or the other has made it out to the public really at the moment americans are deciding who should be the next president with voting already under way in so many parts of the country. This is just one more piece of information. Its an indication, just like weve seen so many former Administration Officials come out just in the final weeks of the election to disown the president , essentially, to speak out against reelecting him. Were seeing that this information that americans, at least a lot of americans want to make an informed decision one way or another is coming to the surface really at this critical moment. Thank you, josh. Nbc political Reporter Josh Lederman joining us live. For those of you diving in were working our way through a New York Times report that details two decades of President Trumps tax returns and details hundreds of millions of business losses laid out in his tax data. It also reports that the president in the year that he took office paid just 750 in taxes, not 750,000 but 750, 750. He spoke tonight at the white house during the press briefing called the story fake, basically said it was another hit job on him by the New York Times and said that the tax returns that might clarify all this are still tied up in an audit. He still maintains that is the reason he cannot release them. That is false. It is wellknown at this point he could release those tax returns if he so desired. Perhaps a few people have quite the perspective of Donald Trumps finances like michael cohen, his former personal attorney. Mr. Cohen joins us on the line. Sir, welcome to the program. Hi, joshua, how are you . Im well. I appreciate you making time for us tonight. I wonder how you view the story in light of something you mentioned on page 94 of your book disloyal. You state mr. Trump got a 10 million refund from the irs. According to the book, and im quoting, forgive me having to clean up the profanity. Can you believe how blanking stupid the irs is. Who would give me a refund of blanking 10 million. They are so stupid, unquote. Mr. Cohen, i assume the New York Times reporting tonight does not surprise you. No, it does not. One of the things i talk quite a bit about in disloyal Donald Trumps entire image and selfworth is based on his inflated actual net worth. Something that this New York Times report is going to do, i truly believe that Donald Trumps financial records are the Rosetta Stone for understanding the depth of his corruption and his crimes. The more its unraveled, the more youre going to see donald trump unravel. Its the reason hes fighting so hard to keep it under wraps. I do want to ask you about one particular passage in the report. Im going to read it, and then id like to get your reaction to it. In the report the times writes, quote, the data contains no new revelations about 130,000 payment to stephanie clifford, the actress who performs as Stormy Daniels. The focus of the subpoena for tax returns and other financial information. Im continuing to report from the times. Quote, mr. Chairman has acknowledged reimbursing his former lawyer michael d. Cohen who made the payoff but the materials contained by the times did not include itemized payments to mr. Cohen. It could have been improperly included as legal fees written off as a business expense, which are not required to be itemized on tax returns, unquote. Thats from the New York Times report tonight. Mr. Cohen, can you add any more context to that . I can. I also discussed this on my new podcast, mea culpa. I said on one of your competing television shows, they were probably very lenient in how they took their deductions. Trumps biggest fear is that he will wiped up at the end of the day with a massive tax bill that will be based on fraud, penalties, fines, and he doesnt have the money. Hes not liquid within which to pay it. So i believe thats probably his biggest fear. Do i believe they improperly classified the Stormy Daniels payment to me . Yes, i absolutely do. Im certain with a little more digging, whether its by the government or by the fabulous New York Times, im 100 certain that will turn out to be accurate. Why do you think he was granted the leniency as you put it . Why would they go easy on him . I didnt see irs granted leniency, i say hes lentient in how he took the deductions and used the Accounting Firm to take these deductions. Sorry. I misheard you. Sorry about that. What do you think a deeper are you concerned at all about what a deeper dive into the detail of the finances might reveal about his dealings with you . Not at all. My entire life has been put out there. Dont forget when the fbi raided my home, my hotel, law office, they took 14 million documents from me. So i have absolutely no fear. Everything there is to know is already out there regarding me. I do believe trumps biggest fear is his tax return is released, theres going to be an entire slew of organizations and accountants and forensic accountants that are going to rip through it and hes going to end up with this massive tax bill. Thats legitimately what i believe, and im going to be proven to be accurate once again. Look, i was the first one 19 months ago to turn around and to say that i do not brophy there will be a peaceful transition of power in 2020. Those were my exact words. I turned around at that same oversight hearing before Elijah Cummings and stated donald trump is a racist, hes a con man, and hes a cheat. Over the course of the last two weeks, what have we seen . Weve certainly seen donald trump is a racist. Theres nobody that could question that. As far as being a con man, the same thing. How many more reports do we need to receive in order to turn around and to say cohen was right about that, too. Now all of a sudden were up to the point hes a cheat. Yes, he cheated the irs. Now, what i find interesting is people will turn around and say, cohen, you went to jail for tax evasion. I want to say in 2016 and 2017 while he paid 750, i paid in excess of 3 million in taxes to the irs. Thats verifiable, too. If i went to jail for 36 months on tax evasion, which probably should have been tax omission, donald trump should do 360 years based on the numbers. I wonder what your sense is, mr. Cohen, of how this might affect the president s prospects in november. I think for a significant part of the president s space, including voters ive talked to in the past, a revelation about him being shall we say less than scrupulous businessman are not the reason why they support him in the first place. Indeed, some are able to look past that and support him anyway. I interviewed a voter in macomb, michigan, outside of detroit who was very strongly supportive of donald trump. I asked him, would you do business with donald trump, to which he responded id get half the money up front first. What is your question, joshua. My question to you is whether or not you think this will make a dent, make a difference particularly among the president s political base. Hes got a certain base that it truly does not matter what he does, which is why he stated that he could kill somebody on fifth avenue and get away with it. These people, for whatever their crazy belief system is, and i was part of that donald trump cult, for whatever, its acceptable but its absolutely not. I believe he will lose the independent voter as a result of this as well as other things. Like for example, on my podcast, mea culpa im in the process right now of producing a special episode on the financial crimes and corruption of donald j. Trump based upon what i know and what has been reported. Estate in it he may actually be the first sitting president to go from the white house straight to prison. I dont think hes by himself, too. I believe allen wiselberg, his cfo is complicit in it as well as don, ivanka, eric, i believe the entire trump clan is complicit in tax evasion. These are legitimately what june pauly stated in my case, these are sophisticated schemes within which to deprive the irs of income, of taxes that are desperately needed. Not putting your money in capital one or First Republic bank, as i did, and providing all the documents to the accountant. Thats also stated in my book disloyal in the sentencing memo. I truly believe this is a very sophisticated scheme of hiding money whether its by claiming you paid 70,000 to cut his hair. Look, donald trump cut his own hair. Im not sure where the 70,000 came from. That seems like a lot of money for haircuts or paying ivanka as a consultant. Consultant for what . For what . For designing her spas in various different buildings they were working on . The whole thing is a scheme. Theres always a scheme when it comes to the trump clan. Let me ask you, mr. Cohen, i appreciate you taking time. Ill let you go in a second. On a more personal note, i dont mean to get too much up in your business but i wonder how you now today with this latest report reflect on your involvement in all of this . I think one of your main streams of your public life, particularly with the book, with the podcast, is talking about what its been like to be part of this Family Enterprise and all of its misdeeds. Thats got to be hard on some days when you get up and look in the mirror and reflect on whats happened over the last few years of your life. How are you personally dealing with all this . Its very difficult. One of the things i talk about right from the beginning of the book in the epilogue is that i was an acolyte. I was somebody that followed and i was deep into the cult of trump. Being ex communicated from it gave me a totally different perspective. Right now im using the book, using the podcast and using this conversation in order to make amends. First and foremost with my wife and my children, my daughter and my son who have gone through legitimately this has been hell for us as a family. But on top of that the country as a whole. What we as a collective group, despite the fact im the only one who seems to have gone to prison for it, we have my goal is to make amends to the country and to right the wrong that i was so complicit in. Michael cohen, former personal attorney to donald trump. Mr. Cohen, i appreciate you making time for us tonight. Thank you very much. Joshua, you be well. Have a good evening. You, too. For those of you joining us at the bottom of the hour, we are working our way through a New York Times report detailing two decades of President Trumps tax data that the times has acquired. It says through people who were legally allowed to receive those documents. Among the headlines from this gigantic investigative report are that for the past 15 years mr. Trump did not pay income tax in 10 of those years, apparently, because his losses were too great to justify them, at least based on the way the documents were written. Also among the revelations that the year he won the presidency, his tax bill was 750. Although it is worth noting that doesnt necessarily include taxes for social security, medicare, alternative minimum tax, et cetera. Lets continue with katy tur joining us on the line. What are your top line reactions to the report . I assume youve had more time to work through it than i have. Its a long report and a lot in there. My top line reaction is ask yourself what you paid in taxes last year. Ask yourself what you paid in taxes for the last 10 years. Ask yourself if you got a deal that allows you to pay 750 for a single year. The vast majority of americans will say, no, i cant pay that much money, i owe taxes on half or a third or maybe even more than half of my income and i cant write off my clothes for work. I cant write off my haircuts for work. I cant do the majority of things that the president of the United States is doing of. The other thing i would say the federal government uses tax dollars for programs, what we rely on, paving our roads, fixing potholes, some of it goes to funding our schools. A lot of it goes to funding our military. The functions of our society are undermined by federal tax dollars, which is why all of us have to pay in. What donald trump has done is taken himself out of that equation, according to the New York Times, claiming multimillion dollar losses for years to come. Politically speaking this is not as big an issue as it would have been in 2016 before the election. It had been normal practice for a president or candidate to release their taxes. Everybody had accepted it as something that would just happen. Donald trump defied that, as he defied so many other norms, and he want held accountable for it. There were no consequences for it, much in the way there were no consequences for access Hollywood Tape or going after gold star families or going after a federal judge, et cetera. This was a thing that infuriated democrats who said, hey, listen, i want to know where the president is getting his money from, i want to know if hes telling me the truth about his assets. I want to know this myth or this legend that he is putting out there about his business acumen and wealth hes accumulated and legend hes selling, his ability to get into the white house and run the government as well as he says he has run the Trump Organization is actually true. You get that from a president s personal and business tax returns. He didnt do that. He wasnt held accountable for it by enough people in the country to put him in the white house. Part of what i would hear, and you heard it from the voter in macomb, people understood donald trump might not be the most honest businessman. He might be doing as Josh Lederman put it nicely finagling behind the scenes when it comes to his taxes but they felt like he was just smarter than them. If they knew how to do it, they would do it as well. If they had lawyers and accountants, they would do the same. He used that to his advantage. Ill leave you with this. Were in a different election. Donald trump is running on his record. The country is not in good shape. Millions of people out of work, millions finding themselves permanently out of work because of this pandemic and the way the president has managed this pandemic. He won by a very small margin in 2016 in a few key places. There were 4. 4 million democrats obama voters who didnt turn out in 2016. More than a third of those were black voters. If enough of those voters decide, hey, listen, voting is consequential, voting does matter, election vs consequences. I need to come out and vote again. If donald trump doesnt suddenly pick up a ton of new voters, he has no way of winning this election. His margins are too small. A story like this might not affect his base but could motivate voters who feel like, hey, i dont want to be cheated. I want the president to be held to the same standard that im currently held on at least when it doss my taxes. Msnbc anchor katy tur looking forward to see how this story develops now and when we see katy tomorrow at 2 00 pchl eastern. Thank you very much. Thank you, joshua. Theres a line in the times report thats worth reading by way of introducing our next guest. In 1973, Richard Nixon paid 792. 81 in 1970 on income of about 200,000. The leak of that small tax payment set the precedent where president s and president ial candidates would make their tax returns available for the American People to see. Among the people who covered the rise and ignominious fall of Richard Nixon was tom broekhoff. He became editor and anchor of nightly news. Now an nbc news correspondent and ep joins us on the line tonight. Good evening. Im talking to you from deep in the hills of montana. It was an amazing thing. I was going to ask you, tom, how do you see this moment in life of that moment, the precedent that was set by candidates after nixon because of the outrage over this compared to whatever the possible impact might be of this New York Times investigation going forward. Its completely different. You know, what nixon did, i heard you say wrong, no question about it. It was chump change compared to whats at stake with donald trump and how much he either has not paid or should pay or has not, in fact, been honest with the American People about how much money he has. But its so striking to me for a guy who just loves to tell everybody how rich he is, he doesnt want us to see his tax returns. He doesnt want us to know, in fact, what his management has been of his personal finances. A lot of people i know, who dealt with him over the years, believe its because its well short of his claims. A major new york city businessman who did business with donald trump, who didnt come away just shaking their heads. A lot of them were happy to escape from doing too much business with him. In every instance i know, these are the blue ribbon law firms and blue ribbon banks in new york city, they can tell you one tale after another about how he tried to run the table on them illegally, threw them out of their office, threatened to sue them. So when he was elected, a lot of prominent new yorkers, and im talking about republicans as well, were stunned he was able to sell this to the rest of the country. Tom, i wanted to have you on tonight to talk about president ial debates. The debate is coming up on tuesday. Id love to get your sense about how this might change the dialogue going forward. First if we could, we have a clip from the 2016 debate where Nbcs Lester Holt asked donald trump about his tax returns. Watch. All right. Well get to that clip in just one second. Essentially the now president said if he did not mind releasing these tax returns, under routine audit. Lester holt tried to push back and say youre free to release your tax returns under an audit. He said i told you ill release them as soon as the audit is done essentially. Whats your sense of how this might affect the debate wednesday. Theres a line in politics about you can run but you cant hide forever. In that case i think thats what were going to. Where does this sit for you, say you were moderating on tuesday, where does this sit for you in the context of Everything Else . It feels like, at least to me, like the list of issues now for voters and taxpayers for sure is piling up, not even in terms of making a choice between a candidate. Our nbc news polling shows 1 11 of voters say they have to settle on a candidate. With coronavirus, black lives matter, Climate Change, wildfires in the west, the economy, people trying to get reemployed, international threats, there seems to be oh so much to think about right now. How to we keep all of these things straight in our heads to prioritize them, especially with this new report . Its one of the reasons we have more than one debate, because there are so many issues to be dealt with. Not just Donald Trumps personal business but also where we are in the world, how he responds to whats going on with covid virus, for example, how he deals with the Emergency Needs of so Many Americans now, working it out on the hill. It will come up in this debate probably, maybe fleetingly. I promise you before the end of the debate, we should know more about how hes going to duck and dodge when hes pressed on these questions about his personal income and how hes managed his money. There are any number of people in new york and other places who have gone through this with him. Hes thrown them out of his office when they have gone by to collect. These are aaa people coming from the best banks in new york city or the best law firms. He just refused to pay what he had to know that he owed legitimately. I always believe he didnt want that to be out because it was going to be a lot less money than he was telling the world he was worth. The fact of the matter is if you lived in new york during the halcion day of trump he was going broke every other week, airlines, casinos, real estate deals, hotels in new york that didnt make it. But now hes telling that to the rest of the country. Its fog to be tricky because he does have a very faithful following. Joe biden is going to have to approach this in a way that he can make the case against him but at the same time hes got to do it in a way that he doesnt turn trumps people into a kind of Vigilante Force determined to come and take on everybody. Ive been doing this for 60 years. Ive never seen a political contest quite like this, a president ial campaign for sure. My first president ial campaign was frankly in 1964 when i was working out of omaha. We had candidates coming and going and we went through a terrible time in 68. Now on so many Different Levels theres so much going on. Were at war with covid. Were at war with people who want to take us down in other ways as well. Were at war with each other in this country. Theres going to have to be a time when theres a reckoning if you will. I would hope that once this is resolved it will be so clear whoever wins, whether its trump or the senator, whoever wins will be able to say its time for us to pull together. Its time to put this country back on even keel again. We cannot continue in this form. Be interesting to see, tom, how this message plays in different parts of the country with different pieces of the president s constituency. It will not be a boring race between now and november but i certainly hear you on the point about the country. I agree. I think a lot of people are ready for this chapter to end so we can move on. What we move on to, thats the open question. Nbc news Senior Correspondent tom broekhoff. We appreciate you taking time tonight. Glad to be here. Well done. 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Ask your doctor about prolia® fda approved for 10 years. Welcome back. Were continuing to make our way through this gigantic New York Times investigation pouring over two decades of Donald Trumps tax documents and finding more than a few issues with the way hes reported his income, wealth, and supposed profits over the years. According to the New York Times, hundreds of millions of dollars flowed to mr. Trump and the Trump Organization largely from his appearances on and subsequent endorsements connected to the apprentice. The money reported to the Internal Revenue service spent and used in a variety of ways that call into question the way he depicts his wealth and whether or not he ultimately paid his fair share to the United States government. According to the record, in the first year of his presidency and in the year he won the presidency, both years he paid 750 in taxes to the irs. In 10 of the last 15 years, he did not pay any taxes at all, reportedly at least as he reported it to the irs because he did not earn enough income to pay taxes across his vast business empire. Tonight it makes us wonder how vast that empire really is, whether, indeed, it is an empire and how stable it is. Particularly if investigators are able to get their hands on the documents New York Times got its hands on and other documents and if they find problems with the way mr. Trump paid or avoided his federal taxes. Plenty to discuss with the next two guests. Were joined now by chief of mother Jones Barbara quaid former u. S. Attorney and msnbc legal analyst. Barbara, let me start with you. If you are one of the federal prosecutors from the Southern District of new york here in manhattan or if youre a member of the house ways and Means Committee that has been trying to get President Trumps tax returns, just got a favorable ruling from the Supreme Court that keeps that door open, whats on your mind tonight . Well, i think we have found why President Trump has been fighting so hard to keep these documents secret and protect his tax returns from disclosure. There is a there there, and i think those investigators are going to want to get their hands on the documents as well. Michael cohen testified in congress about the way he conducted businesses that suggests fraud that can be proved with tax returns. He said he would undervalue his revenues when it came to paying his taxes so he could reduce his tax bill and inflate his revenues for purpose of getting loans, like attempting to buy buffalo bills. It could demonstrate the kind of fraud that could lead to criminal charges. Im sure thats the kind of thing cyrus vance is working on. You could see a Justice Department and the Biden Administration pursuing these kind of crimes. I do want to be clear. Cyrus vance is the District Attorney in new york. Are we talking about things illegal or illicit. There are a lot of ways to play games with the tax system, as we know, that may be sneaky and slimy and unfair to people depending on what tax bracket youre in, but within the text of the tax code, they are not technically illegal. So what are we talking about here . Sure. It may very well be President Trump takes aggressive deductions and thinks taxes are for suckers and looks for ways to reduce his tax bill to zero. But if you make false statements on tax returns or loan applications, those are crimes. One way of proving those crimes is to obtain those kinds of records and compare the numbers to each other. When they dont watch, that means somebody is lying on one of those documents. Depending which one it is, that could form a basis of a crime of tax fraud or bank fraud depending which document they are contained in. Whats the sense of your reaction to, this particularly in washington tonight . Well, for are a couple of years, many of us have been demanding, asking, requesting, that donald trump make his tax returns available. Its been happening since Richard Nixon was president. N h Richard Nixon was president. Its one of the basic norms of modern democracy. He has resisted it, lied about his excuses for not doing so. Now we see that. Now we know it. I think this will give new life to congressional investigations that have tried to look at some of his business enterprises, and i think it will put him back on his heels and hell continue with more lies as he started this afternoon by saying they never contacted me throughout this story. His lawyer is quoted throughout the story. Its full of highly questionable actions. Its not a surprise. In october 2018 New York Times did a 30,000 word piece showing the trump family had engaged this the New York Times word they had engaged in fraud to ms pay damages. It involves daughter ivanka, personal family property, how much business with india, philippines, turkey. , how much business with india, philippines, turkey. So we can sit here for hours and go over all the ramifications. Basically it gets to the heart of the story. He triggers the liberals. If 47 pages of a New York Times investigation aint triggered, ive never seen a trigger. This is it. So i just am not sure what the political implication will be in a real sense. Were talking about the same person who got elected with some voters who said you guys need to learn how to take him seriously and not literally. It doesnt excuse whats in this report, im trying to think through what this actually will mean politically in terms of the election. Does that make sense . It does. Nothing more serious and literal than tax returns to begin with. Hell argue the case here but these are facts. At this point in the game, people who are with trump through his comments about race and misogyny, admitting he committed sexual assault, they are not going to be dissuaded. They love the fact he calls everything fake news thats negative about him. They are not dissuaded. In the engagement. The margins are small. The question is whether this may impact a hand. Of voters or more importantly, forced in for the next couple of days, if not longer, to defend themselves and whatever messaging he wants too do, whatever he thinks is wonderful in the trump administration. It will be lost in the next few days because of this. Not everything is political. Sometimes you dont know the impact of it until after the fa fact. The story about mitt romney, i have no idea it would have any impact what soefr, but you do this and you take this nofrgs what its worth, which i think is a hell of a story im jell otherwise of the New York Times tonight. Ive been asking for donald trump to make his tax returns available. We have far more information on him than we had at the start of the day. Barbara, what do you think is the next phase in this process . Weve heard from the chairman of the ways and Means Committee, which is clearly galvanized. What do you think comes after this . The president lo probably continue to deny the veracity of this report hes not going to release his tax returns. If you expect him torques its wishful at best, but where does this go . I think the tax returns are important with the Intelligence Committee in to house. Looking at what the we know already just from the reporting in New York Times, President Trump could never get a security clearance as an employee at the white house or anywhere in the government. He laifs reckless life he owes about 20 million thats coming soon and he received licensing fees from the government of turkey. That all could be used against him in his role as the commander in chief. Those are issues. I think the Intelligence Committee will want to scrutinize. It goes towards President Trumps fitness to serve in the white house. I want to know since mentioned russia, according to the times report, the documents they reviewed do not reveal any previously unreported connections to russia. But they do reveal a bit about the money behind the 2013 Miss Universe pageant held in moscow. Apparently that pageant was the most profitable of Miss Universe. It created a personalle payday of 2. 3 million. A family that set up that infamous 2016 meeting where Trump Campaign officials were seek dirt on hillary clinton, also involving a russian lawyer connected to the kremlin. It sounds like this is much bigger than just whether or not donald trump is trustworthy. This is whether or not donald trump presents at literal threat to national security. I imagine how that might feel like high personally for those hearing it for the first time. All of those things can be used as leverage against someone when they have access to the nations most sensitive secrets. Even if President Trump is acting above borksd those incentives are in place and the American Public deserves to know about so it they can assess whether hes a security troisk our nation. David, what do you think politically is the next step . We were talking with james car very well on how to message on this. I think it weebz f. We told you this is who he is. See . And for the rest of the country, to be like and . We kind of knew this already. Plus already all these other o issues that we know are going to be top issues for voters, health care, i mean, cry, for sure, Climate Change with the fires out west, economy, future of our relationships with other countries in the world theres all kinds of stuff to talk about. What is your sense of the strategy in light of this report . Well, you know make our way through this. Right. 45 pages in my printsout. I see the possibility of at least a hundred different political ads in this. So well keep those people busy. The basic here is all those issues talked about. Covid, Climate Change, economic justice, social justice, for anyone to deal that in the white house, we need to have someone whos basically honest and competent, ok, who doesnt lie, who doesnt cheat who doesnt con. So if you have someone there whose core story are questioned. You cant have him in charge at the time of a pandemic where 200,000 people have already lost their lives and we could double that number in coming months whachltd kinds of person will be in charge of the country as we deal these tremendous challenges. As bash rrbarbarbara. He has to pay off in the next four or five years. Talk about the pressure and the conflicts of interest that puts on somebody whos trying to deal with an economy thats gone off the railings. So its his fitness for off his ability to do the job, its all typed in the story i havent talked to o the Biden Campaign yet fwoint i imagine theyre trying to figure out how to weeftd this story into the criticism and the critiques theyve already loefld and well see to a what degree biden comes out swinging on this on tuesday night at the debate. I dont think its a separate issue. You know, in some ways, people say yeah, we know this is donald trump. Hes a con. Ok. Do you want a con during a pandemic. Thats what i was going to ask you about quickly before you go this is not anything i think a lot of President Trump spores did not know and indeed the fact that he was an outsider, a business man someone whos not schooled in the ways of washington was his very appeal. Yes. Now we see what he said, he was a genius, that hes o lost money on most of his endeavors and he hasnt played straight. And it is his people will forgive him for this. Those who think he is some sort of messiah. The margins are so tight he cant afford to lose anybody. This continues that integrated story of whats wrong him plirnl flanld as president. Its all together