of al qaeda then i think the die is cast for that organization. >> in pakistan there are other groups, lashkar-e-taiba -- i may be pronouncing it wrong. >> that's correct. >> they were involved in the mumbai attack. which was really, when you think about it, it seems like we're seeing an increasing number of these kind of handful of people launching an operation with pretty limited weapons. and in the case of the mumbai attack they were able to paralyze a major city. we also saw there was an attack i think at an indian embassy in kabul. there was an attack in pakistan as well. does that seem to be the new model for attacks? >> well, the model that you're talking about is the handiwork of pakistani intelligence. >> the isi or a branch of it. >> the isi. yes. for instance, we have indictments in chicago having to do with the mumbai attack. charging isi with coordinating and directing those attacks. >> they were actually -- had hands on on that? >> yes. they helped them pick the sites. moreover, i talked to ali safan,
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