>> 1597 or something. he's done more than his predecessors. >> it's laudable what he's done. >> so i want to ask you. brian said, you know, he would separate the two, he would separate snowden and chelsea manning, but your new book about edward snowden is a deep dive into the extent of his crimes. you called what snowden did a theft. should barack obama pardon snowden? >> no, he won't pardon snowden. it's night and day between snowden and manning. snowden stole communications intelligence, which is the keys to the kingdom of intelligence if these sources and methods by which we intercept conversations, internet communications, telemetry. krip toe, warfare, everything comes down to the sources and