that's what they're hoping for. right now you've got traits rising. as traits rise, it becomes more expensive to service your debtor issue new debt, something important to watch. >> in terms of the talking point, that's all well and good and we may, in fact, see growth in that way. but is there a particular timeline attached to that? >> very hard to tell what's going to happen to the economy in the near term. this is an expansion, and it's nine years old at this point. a bull market that's nine years old for sure. if you have an overheating economy and a fed raising interest rates, now you're talking next year or the year after recession. so we don't know what's going to happen with the economy in the very, very near term. we do know it is strong today. it's strong today. the job market is very good today. wages are rising today. you could see the unemployment rate go below 4% by the summer, many economists are telling me. that's why the economy is heating up and interest rates are rising. >> when we look at interest