sought -- and personally attempted to conceal the purpose of this meeting. but that he lied to the american people and directed other individuals to lie to the american people. >> that raises the question of whether or not he just did so in order to mislead the public or whether he was also attempting to mislead investigators. i also think it seeks to guilty knowledge here. they clearly understood that they had something to hide. and i think rudy giuliani did give the game away this week and when he said that is why you don't let the president testify. he's saying, they call it perjury trap. he's saying the president of the united states cannot be trusted to comply with the law. can he not be trusted to tell the truth and that itself is a consequence cal statement. >> and today sarah sanders said in august of last year he didn't dictate, referring to the president, the public statement in the aftermath of the new york times story and refused to answer questions why she said that which clearly wasn't true.