pardons. with a a what are you hearing? >> i think what rudy giuliani said is so interesting because it's different than what president trump himself said earlier today. he did not want to talk about the idea of presidential pardons. recently, he said he didn't want to talk about the notion of pardons becausevicted of anythi. the fact that you have rudy giuliani out there today sort of floating this notion that pardons could clean this up, i mean, this could be a signal that trump and his allies are worried about this pressure on manafort, worried he might ultimately decide to cave or that someone like cohen might decide to flip on the president and cooperate. this does send a signal that the president and his team are thinking about pardons and who to offer those to even as president trump says he doesn't want to talk about it. >> what concerns does it raise when the president's lawyer, in this case rudy giuliani, says something like that? >> it's so corrupt and unethical what giuliani said. we are in an area here that is