these families with their children to come in, it's going to encourage more people to make a dangerous journey and this is, in fact, a deterrent which long term may be better for kids because it prevents people from trying to make that dangerous journey. >> i hate to integrate facts in that discussion, because yes, that is an argument people make, but this policy doesn't even work. while we're destroying our global image while we're actually ruining young people's lives, children's lives, putting them in harm's way, we have a policy that doesn't even work. it's proven to be flawed. >> you think there was no crisis until now? you think the ms-13 and the drug traffickers and the human traffickers, you think none of that was happening until now? >> with all due respect, mason, these kids are not ms-13. these kids are not animals. these kids are children, jason. so when you're talking about this issue, we have an ms-13 gang problem in the united states of america.