convention that's conspiracy. >> because the campaign would have gotten something in return that the russians valued. >> the russians are the ones -- either it's a conspiracy because they do it together or the russians are committing a crime and the trump administration is -- trump as president was helping them in some way. again, it could be pretty broad in terms of what that would cover. >> john, just to remind our viewers. you worked with mayor rudy giuliani for many years. you know him well. you can parse what he says and how he thinks. your thoughts? >> parsing his two words may be unhelpful. he was trying to get ahead of a story with the second meeting. not corroborating the existence of the second meeting. >> hold on. that got a lot of attention. >> it did. >> he seemed to mention another meeting that none of us had ever heard about. he came up with some of the guests even in that meegting, jared, don jr., gates that we had heard about. he had to clarify whether that