conviction was not on those kinds of issues, actually the washington case may be much more directly on that, but it was completely investigate for mueller to follow the money as he did, and -- and manafort, by the way, is facing an enormous uphill battle. i don't know all the details of any appellate issues, but this was not a judge that was against manafort. this was a judge that was helping him every step of the way, so if -- i can't imagine what appellate grounds there are. it's also very interesting that kevin downing in front of the courthouse doesn't say as many defense lawyers would say we are going to appeal. he says we're going to consider our options. >> our options, right. >> i thought that was an interesting statement. >> as i understand, harry, you have your own ideas about conviction or prosecution versus non-prosecution when it comes to the president, indicting versus non-indicting. we'll hear that after the break. don't go anywhere. when i received the diagnoses,