they're saying michael cohen is a hero and they're going to build a statue. not at all. cooperating witnesses are bad people. that's what we say as prosecutors all the time, they're cooperating for a reason, because they're criminals. that's where the jury system kicks in. juries will evaluate the cooperating witnesses and they'll see them and decide do i believe this person, does the other evidence back them up? if not, they acquit. but if they credit the cooperator, as we just saw largely in manafort, they'll convict. but that's the system. >> elsewhere in the interview he says the justice department, with justice in quotes, which is amazing itself. but all of us who have been federal prosecutors, the whole structure of how federal prosecutions work is based on the idea of working from the bottom up. of getting low-level people to cooperate against people above them and that's why federal law enforcement is so successful and we are -- we were -- i mean, i'm not there anymore but that's why we were so good at our jobs is because that structure works.