false? >> that's certainly possible. we have seen in this scenario with the president and his lawyers and other people around the president and their lawyers that there seems to be some disconnect between what the truth is and what the lawyers have known. one of the lawyers that's being talked about in connection with your question here, the review of michael cohen's testimony is abby lowell. in a separate matter a few days ago looked like he was throwing his own client under the bus with respect to how the security clearance process worked. if this is a case where people don't tell their clients everything, which may give the lawyers some safety here. >> let me get your reaction to "the wall street journal" report that cohen's lawyer raised the idea of a pardon with the president's legal team. do you believe there was anything improper or potentially he will ly illegal by that? >> on this question also, it depends what happened, who knew