russian bad sources, those are wrong things to do. they're wrong and shouldn't be lied about. and they both happened. >> i think interference in campaigns is wrong, period, but whatever government is doing it, or whatever entities are doing it. that was not what this became about. this was was the president involved with the russians. >> fine, but why deny the interference as a way of defending yourself against implications. >> he's not denying the interference. bob mueller said today he could not say that the votes were switched. >> doesn't mean there wasn't russian interference. >> i think russian interference has been around going way back in our history. >> but it's worse here now. and it's getting worse now. >> when president obama had the opportunity to do something. >> he did nothing and it was a mistake. >> he told the president of russia after the e tlex, i have more flexibility. >> no, he said he had more flexibility. it was a context of a different discussion. not about russian interference. he didn't --