you don't want to take it out of the tool kit. let's be reasonable about it. >> it's like being half pregnant. how do you have a little bit of affirmative action policies? >> well, because you have a little bit, let's say, or a lot of bit of discrimination. so we need to decide when the discrimination is a problem and when it's not a problem. >> how do you justify the children of rich south americans coming to this country and getting extra points on their s.a.t.s? this is a program that was for the -- >> we got it, charlie. >> i have to say, i think charlie makes a really good point. look, a lot has changed in this country since the early 1960s during the kennedy administration when affirmative action first came on the scene. the demographics have changed dramatically. and this is not just a domestic issue. the european union is evaluating affirmative action. sweden overturned affirmative action in several cases.