it seems, though, unfortunately, perhaps something too far beyond our leaders' ability. >> enhance the debt limit and continue to have discussions about a consensus plan that's going to create jobs and address all of these problems. it's being done under the pressure of a false deadline. >> i think -- >> and that is tying this to the debt limit vote. look, the car was purchased it was driven off the lot. now we're going to debate whether we signed the loan papers? >> look, at the end of the day, you have to deal with this deficit and you're not going to get it done without reforming programs. mayor, i would just disagree with you on this. i believe it is possible to design a federal government that doesn't hurt the most vulnerable by bringing in reform of those programs. we've done it in ohio with medicaid. we've saved billions, and the aarp supports our program. we let mom and dad stay home if they qualify for a nursing home. it saves us a lot of money. but, so, i think that's one thing. the loophole closings ultimately will happen because if you can get lower flatter rates, it's going to happen. but at this point, look, we all know it, if we don't deal with the $14 trillion debt by