absolutely. i don't know the exact number. >> and you -- and that $4 million was delivered to ralph reed to get him to mobilize christian conservative opposition to a casino that some indian tribe you weren't representing was trying to -- >> well, either indian or non-indian casinos. >> any casino -- >> we hired our clients, as often others are, to prevent them from losing their market. and we were very creative and used every method we could to do that. and one of them was to mobilize people who hated casino gambling for the short-term strange bedfellows partnership of working together to stop a new casino. >> one of the tribes, thetiguas that you represented, eventually they ran out of money in their ability to pay you. how much did they pay you over time? >> i think it was a couple million dollars. >> and eventually they ran out. >> right. >> so you came up with another idea. "in 2003, abramoff approached the tigua tribal council with a novel proposition.