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>> right. >> so you came up with another idea. "in 2003, abramoff approached the tigua tribal council with a novel proposition. free term-life insurance for all elder members of the trim. abramoff would pay the premiums, but there was a catch. the death benefits from the term-life policies that abramoff for would not be paid to the families of the tribal elders, but to a private school in washington, d.c. the school, founded and directed by abramoff, would use the money to pay tigua lobbying fees to abramoff's law firm." so the private school, you would use that to launder money to then pay you lobbying fees? >> lawrence, i think with all of this stuff, i was involved in an area i shouldn't have been involved in. that was an example. that particular thing was an insurance program that the law firm that i was a member of created in their insurance division to help nonprofits.
absolutely. i don't know the exact number. >> and you -- and that $4 million was delivered to ralph reed to get him to mobilize christian conservative opposition to a casino that some indian tribe you weren't representing was trying to -- >> well, either indian or non-indian casinos. >> any casino -- >> we hired our clients, as often others are, to prevent them from losing their market. and we were very creative and used every method we could to do that. and one of them was to mobilize people who hated casino gambling for the short-term strange bedfellows partnership of working together to stop a new casino. >> one of the tribes, thetiguas that you represented, eventually they ran out of money in their ability to pay you. how much did they pay you over time? >> i think it was a couple million dollars. >> and eventually they ran out. >> right. >> so you came up with another idea. "in 2003, abramoff approached the tigua tribal council with a novel proposition.